Affirmative Action Good Intentions But Bad Result

[NatMorton]

You are correct. The 'benefits' of inequality to members of the group in power are ultimately highly localized and shortsighted in nature. All of society would benefit from a more equitable system. It is a classic case of Nash Equilibrium.

IMO, this point is rarely made as it cuts against the “white benefit from racism” narrative.

 

[danielpalos]

Is there a reason I should take you seriously?

I resort to the fewest fallacies in any given argument. How seriously do you take sublime Truth(value) discoverable through argumentation?

 

[RealityChecker]

I resort to the fewest fallacies in any given argument. How seriously do you take sublime Truth(value) discoverable through argumentation?

Well one cannot discover the truth through argumentation if one is a closed minded zealot. Argument based on any fallacies may well be at odds with reality. The simple truth is that AA is systemic racism and those who support AA policies are racist. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and AA and LBJs anti-poverty Great Society programs prove this simple truth. Capisce?

 

[TurtleDude]

Well one cannot discover the truth through argumentation if one is a closed minded zealot. Argument based on any fallacies may well be at odds with reality. The simple truth is that AA is systemic racism and those who support AA policies are racist. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and AA and LBJs anti-poverty Great Society programs prove this simple truth. Capisce?

I don't believe all who support affirmative racial discrimination are necessarily "racist"

 

[Deuce]

It appears that the race-based and gender-based discrimination encouraged by many affirmative action (AA) rules

That's not what affirmative action does.

 

[RealityChecker]

That's not what affirmative action does.

When you favor applicants based on their race and/or gender you must be disfavoring or discriminating against better qualified applicants in part because of their race or gender. That is exactly what AA policies have done and continue to do.

 

[TurtleDude]

That's not what affirmative action does.

bullshit-that is exactly what affirmative action does

 

[TurtleDude]

When you favor applicants based on their race and/or gender you must be disfavoring or discriminating against better qualified applicants in part because of their race or gender. That is exactly what AA policies have done and continue to do.

It is impossible to have a rational discussion on AA when its defenders deny what its main impact is-and that is discrimination against better qualified whites and Asians in favor of blacks and now hispanics

 

[RealityChecker]

I don't believe all who support affirmative racial discrimination are necessarily "racist"

Well a racist is a person who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group. If one supports unfair treatment of others one may not personally be a racist but one would still be complicit with racial wrong doing. Agreed?

 

[RealityChecker]

It is impossible to have a rational discussion on AA when its defenders deny what its main impact is-and that is discrimination against better qualified whites and Asians in favor of blacks and now hispanics

Well one can rationalize discuss AA with those who support it but sadly most of those who support AA do so out of ignorance and/or illogical beliefs. Many times those irrational beliefs are held with such fervor one is unlikely to alter the AA supporters thinking with verifiable evidence and logical arguments. It seems that is pretty much we spend a lot of time here doing. Hopefully, there are some here who can see our reasonable arguments and how they contrast with the irrational zealots dubious ideas and learn from these discussions. That is why I am here. How about you?

 

[TurtleDude]

Well one can rationalize discuss AA with those who support it but sadly most of those who support AA do so out of ignorance and/or illogical beliefs. Many times those irrational beliefs are held with such fervor one is unlikely to alter the AA supporters thinking with verifiable evidence and logical arguments. It seems that is pretty much we spend a lot of time here doing. Hopefully, there are some here who can see our reasonable arguments and how they contrast with the irrational zealots dubious ideas and learn from these discussions. That is why I am here. How about you?

the zoo is closed and this is a good substitute ?

 

[jpevans]

Well I would not call networks racists. I see no evidence of racism in your anecdotal experience either. But I would agree that there certainly was some systemic racism outside of the southern states with Jim Crow laws back in the 1950s and 1960s. For example, we know many unions excluded blacks and that was certainly racism. However, Jim Crow laws were clearly government sponsored racism. Private businesses and private organizations like country clubs (where networking happens) also were racially discriminating against blacks. But the Civil Rights Act of 1964 certainly made such racial discrimination illegal. We did not need AA rules and regulations to correct that type of systemic racism, but we certainly needed laws and actions to stop such racist practices.

Your point about growing up in concentrated poverty does have some validity as it is certainly more difficult to get into a top college or get a good paying job if one grows up in a very poor community. But there are fairer and likely in the long far better ways to address the handicap of growing up in a poor community. One of the perhaps unintended effects of the Civil Rights Act was it made it far easier for people in these concentrated poor communities to move out of them if they were MDs, lawyers, teachers, etc. who had skills that could lead to increased income once discriminatory real estate practices were outlawed by the Civil Rights Act. The result was a lot of the people in say Harlem moved to nicer neighborhoods. The outlawing of Jim Crow laws in the south likely had an even more dramatic impact on poor mostly black communities. But when the leaders of those communities left it led to more crime, worse schools, and other social ills.

If you were a good teacher who happened to be black and left for a better job elsewhere what happened to the quality of the education in those unable to find gainful employment outside of that poor community? And if you look at the expansion of welfare entitlements under LBJ's "Great Society" expansion of the Federal bureaucracy what did that unintentionally to the out of wedlock birthrate, especially in predominantly black poor communities? As I said the "road to Hell is often paved with good intentions.

Redlining was Government policy, embedded in the FHA & the GI Bill. Even after it was ruled unlawful, evidence shows it continued.

 

[jpevans]

Well the vast majority of white Americans never owned slaves. And some black Americans back also owned slaves. And if the founding fathers all believed slavery was a good thing why did they leave it out of the US Constitution? Slavery was found in every continent back in the 1600s and 1700s and in some countries it still continues to this day. If the US is a racist nation then why did they fight the civil war that among other things outlawed slavery in the few states where it still existed up until that war was fought.

And how do American government policies that promote the acceptance of less academically qualified black applicants over better qualified white applicants "put black below white people"?

It wasn't left out of the constitution, with the Electoral College, mention of 3/5th persons. Who did you think they were?

 

[RealityChecker]

Redlining was Government policy, embedded in the FHA & the GI Bill. Even after it was ruled unlawful, evidence shows it continued.

The Fair Housing Act of 1968, which explicitly prohibited racial discrimination, put an end to legally sanctioned redlining policies like those used by the FHA. So it was outlawed more than 5 decades ago. By contrast, the Federal government continues to promote racial discrimination against white and increasingly Asian-American men. So while several states have outlawed racist and sexist affirmative action this systemic Federal government promoted discrimination continues to this day. There is no Federal government or state government that allow systemic discrimination against blacks so let's deal with current reality.

There remains plenty of government sanctioned and even encouraged racial discrimination and for decades it has targeted white and not black people. Was it wrong when it targeted black people? Yup. Is it wrong when it targets white or Asian-American people? Yup. Are you a hypocrite and disagree that governments ought to be outlawing and discouraging racial discrimination rather than encouraging it?

 

[RealityChecker]

It wasn't left out of the constitution, with the Electoral College, mention of 3/5th persons. Who did you think they were?

Your argument that the US Constitution is racist suffers from one fatal flaw: the concept of race does not exist in the Constitution. Nowhere in the Constitution—or in the Declaration of Independence, for that matter—are human beings classified according to race, skin color, or ethnicity (nor, one should add, sex, religion, or any other of the left’s favored groupings). So you are mistaken in your dubious claim that our founding principles are not colorblind. Of course, this is not to deny that US history, regrettably for far too failed live up to the principles in the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

So there is nothing in the US Constitution that condones or even mentions slavery or race. You have been duped by the nonsense that has been written by the NY Times or perhaps others about the now infamous electoral college clause. That clause does not declare that a black person is worth 60 percent of what a white person is worth. It says that for the purposes of determining the number of representatives for each state in the House (and direct taxes), the government would count only three-fifths of the slaves rather than all of them. This was the Southern states wanted to gain more Congressional seats. The tens of thousand free blacks in the South as well as all Northern states were counted on par with whites. So again it appears you are out of sync with reality.

 

[jpevans]

Well anyone can go back and see your response to Carl Young in your Post #42.

Carl Young basically argued in favor of equal opportunity and merit by stating that anyone can make it in America, but that success should depend on one's character and often hard work rather than from the government slanting the playing field. Your response to Carl's post was:

"Cool. So even with affirmative action, white people can still succeed if they have the determination and family support. There are plenty of examples of white people succeeding even after affirmative action was signed. So if affirmative action isn't stopping white people from succeeding, why don't white people just work hard and take some personal responsibility instead of blaming affirmative action for their failures? Why not focus on improving their own lot in life instead of trying to change the system?" AConcernedCitizen post #42

Seemed to me you were defending discriminating against people based on their race. So I then responded to your apparent support for race-based AA discrimination in my Post #45:

"So we saw some blacks succeeding in the south despite Jim Crow laws due to determination and family support and no doubt other factors too. So clearly Jim Crow did not prevent all blacks from doing well, right? Not cool at all IMO.

So if Jim Crow laws didn't stop some black people from succeeding, why didn't black people just work hard and take some personal responsibility instead of blaming Jim Crow laws for their failures? Why not focus on improving their own lot in life instead of trying to change the system? That is your statement in reverse. Think about it.

Personally I oppose affirmative action for the same reason I opposed Jim Crow laws back in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Racial animus and discrimination ought to be outlawed and discouraged and never condoned by decent Americans. I also opposed red lining and other attempts by racist white people in states without Jim Crow laws too. So your argument that because some people of a given race can succeed despite government sanctioned and/or government allowed or condoned racial discrimination against them makes simply no sense to me. Perhaps you can explain why your position is not hypocritical and/or racist?" RealityChecker

You responded in Post #72:

"Now that we have dispensed with this "anyone of any race can succeed" nonsense, let's see if we can determine which way the playing field actually slants. According to the hypothesis that AA is creating an unfair disadvantage for white people, we would expect to see that disadvantage play out in the data. For example, if one were to send out 5000 resumes that were identical except for the names, we would expect that names like Lakisha Washington and Jamal Jones, names statistically more likely to belong to black people, would receive more callbacks than names like Emily Walsh or Greg Baker, names statistically more likely to belong to white people. How do you think that hypothesis plays out? AConcernedCitizen

Where Jim Crow Laws failed to stop blacks from succeeding, angry white lynch mobs burned neighborhoods to the ground & killed untold numbers of black citizens. Greenwood Ok.. Rosewood Fla., Atlanta & others. Sort of an affirmative action for white folk. The government was complicit in tilting the playing field also, including FHA & GI Bill, among other systemic racist policy, in the justice system, Law enforcement, Military etc. Often overturning racist policy was lip service, with banks still practicing redlining & when loans were given, upping interest rates above those offered a similar on paper white applicant.

 

[RealityChecker]

Where Jim Crow Laws failed to stop blacks from succeeding, angry white lynch mobs burned neighborhoods to the ground & killed untold numbers of black citizens. Greenwood Ok.. Rosewood Fla., Atlanta & others. Sort of an affirmative action for white folk. The government was complicit in tilting the playing field also, including FHA & GI Bill, among other systemic racist policy, in the justice system, Law enforcement, Military etc. Often overturning racist policy was lip service, with banks still practicing redlining & when loans were given, upping interest rates above those offered a similar on paper white applicant.

I am still waiting to admit you were wrong about the US Constitution okayed slavery. Jim Crow laws were outlawed and Civil Rights Act outlawed race and ethnic discrimination.

AA is systemic government sanctioned racial discrimination. It is wrong just as were slavery, indentured servitude, red lining, Jim Crow laws, etc. It is immoral to punish the sons for the sins of their fathers. Don't be a dupe defending the systemic government mandated and encouraged racial discrimination.

 

[bomberfox]

Institutional racism did not just exist in the South. What AA policies do is address the issue of networks. For example, I grew up in poverty, I am now upper middle class. I did this through a lot of hard work and ambition. However, I got my first good IT job because my mother new the senior partner's wife at that firm. There are plenty of white people that grow up in poverty, but they are very likely to also grow up in proximity to people that are not living in poverty. In contrast, 8 out 10 people that live in areas of concentrated poverty are black or brown. When you live in concentrated poverty, what holds you back more than anything else is networks. Early in our careers, most people get good jobs because they know someone, or someone they know, knows someone.

As to why 8 out 10 people that live in areas of concentrated poverty are black or brown, well, for that you can look to institutional racism of the past and systemic racism today.

Having a white sounding name gets you more interviews than if you had a black, asian, and hispanic sounding name.

 

[bomberfox]

The US’ protestant work ethic is an absolute religion so ingrained into our minds that even liberals still have this bootstrapping, its your fault you are behind, that no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince them systemic racism exists today.

 

[TurtleDude]

The US’ protestant work ethic is an absolute religion so ingrained into our minds that even liberals still have this bootstrapping, its your fault you are behind, that no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince them systemic racism exists today.

AA is the new systemic racism today

 

[calamity]

AA is the new systemic racism today

Whining about it is an obvious dog whistle.

 

[trixare4kids]

AA is the new systemic racism today

Systemic Racism and Affirmative Action

Classical music is under attack by the 'woke' because the overwhelming majority of classical musicians are either Asian or white. Heather Mac Donald tells the depressing story. Her whole article is worth reading, but for now I want to focus on this: in recent history, orchestra auditions have...

www.powerlineblog.com

 

[TurtleDude]

Systemic Racism and Affirmative Action

Classical music is under attack by the 'woke' because the overwhelming majority of classical musicians are either Asian or white. Heather Mac Donald tells the depressing story. Her whole article is worth reading, but for now I want to focus on this: in recent history, orchestra auditions have...

www.powerlineblog.com

its amazing. Dr King is probably puking in his grave over this nonsense

 

[mrjurrs]

Well one cannot discover the truth through argumentation if one is a closed minded zealot. Argument based on any fallacies may well be at odds with reality. The simple truth is that AA is systemic racism and those who support AA policies are racist. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and AA and LBJs anti-poverty Great Society programs prove this simple truth. Capisce?

You said "Well one cannot discover the truth through argumentation if one is a closed minded zealot."

Hey pot, stop calling the kettle black.

 

[calamity]

its amazing. Dr King is probably puking in his grave over this nonsense

What I know FOR SURE--the biggest and most obvious racists cry the loudest about Affirmative Action. And, that is no coincidence.