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Affirmative Action....come On!

bushrules91

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this is one of the worst things i have ever heard of. I may be young but i know what im talking about. this is total crap and if someone is for this im am NOT a racist i think thats wrong. you should not have to run a buisness based on how many african-american people there are or white people or mexican people etc. you shoud base it on how qualified a person is no matter what race. If i owned a buisness and a mexican person and a white person, again not to be racist because im not, and the white person is more qualified i wa]ould hire him,or her, but then i would be afraid of being sued by the other person and losing MY company for hireing the BETTER more qualified person. now tell me how that is right because im ready to defend myself. i am 100 percent behind this and im not backing down!
 

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Many of us are right along beside you on this topic. :)

Welcome to Debate Politics!
 

bellisaurius

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I'm not a fan of quotas, but to elucidate on your complaint, bushrules, if you owned your own buisiness you wouldn't be required to hire any one on a quota basis.

What you might have to do is first of all not show any bias in hiring (so if the mexican is more skilled, you better have some justification not to hire him). This doesn't seem so horrible.

If you happen to have any federal contract, then you need to meet the equal empolyment oppurtunity criteria (of which I'm not up to date on). But, given the public nature of the funding, a certain level of "societal good" can always be encouraged.
 
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Arch Enemy

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The whole point of Affirmative Action was to give equality between the different races/ethnics of America. It is a fact that our discrimination of Blacks, left an imprint on their society, which cost that race/ethnic standing dearly. Affirmative Action started under FRDs reign and I believe it is going over the border.
Inequality between Blacks and Whites is still staggering, even more so, the inequality between Whites and Mexicans.
 

Laternater

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Inequality is a tragic problem in the US. Affirmative action is now playing a reversed role in our businesses, schools and lives. There is no doubt that it had it's place in our government, but it is out dated and has over stepped it's bounds a little. I do not believe we should abolish it either because soon the whites in the US will need it to work for them, as it did for the other races. I recently read and article that stated by the year 2023 the majority of the US population will be hispanic and placing Anglos in the third slot right behind african-americans. Let's think about that for a while....lol.
 

lheard

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How Many Of You Against Affirmative Action Have Ever Been Denied A Job Because Of It? When You Answer That Let's Talk.
 

Connecticutter

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Can anyone give an example of when an Affirmative Action program in any country has ever succeeded in eliminating inequality between groups? Has affirmative action ever led to better race relations?

I can't find any such examples.

The liberals here, as usual, have good intentions, but their perscribed policies will never produce the results they want. Reverse discrimination is not the answer.
 

Arthur Fonzarelli

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In Philly there have been protests over the LIVE 8 concert. Two primary arguments have been thrust into the public via picketers. 1) not enough black performers (6 of the 14 performers are black)...that is slightly over 40% while the national population is about 18% black...although, Philly has just over a 40% black population. 2) Unions are picketing for not using union labor...I didn't hear the whole story on this but I'm guessing they're talking about labor at the venue.

source: the Glenn Beck Show
 

FiremanRyan

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is Affirmative Action even a topic of debate anymore? not only does it further inequality but it basically says that minorities can only succeed when we lower the standards for them. it hurts more than it helps.

besides that, its the single largest example of a double standard in this country. i mean, lets say a white guy and a black guy apply for the same job or school. the black guy is better qualified but the white guy gets it...thats racism. but if the white guy is better qualified but the black guy gets it...thats affirmative action. ridiculous.
 
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SouthernDemocrat

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You right wingers are something else. You have all the money and power and you still complain. I am a white male, as such:

- I statistically get paid more than women or minorities in the same profession as I am.

- I statistically enjoy a higher standard of living than minorities and single women.

- I statistically enjoy better healthcare than minorities and I have a longer projected lifespan because of it.

- To top it off, a very disproportionate number of those who represent me are white males just like me. In fact the good old Republican Party who claims to have such a big tent, has not even put the money and resources behind one African American to get them elected to either House of Congress. Basically almost all Republicans look just like me and since they are the party in power, things could not look better for me and all my white male peers.

I grew up poor, and through hard work have done ok so far in life. My wife and I having good careers with good benefits and as such live good middle class lives. I like to attribute my success in life so far (I am not rich, I just have a job that I like doing that pays me decently) to hard work and constantly educating myself in technologies related to my career (I am a Systems Administrator), but still I have to admit a small part of my success probably has to do with me being a white male and all those advantages that go along with that. In fact, in the vast majority of companies I have worked for, the vast majority of the best jobs seemed to go to white males like myself, or the occasional white woman. My point in all this being is that if you’re a white male, you already have a leg up on any one else ion the road of life here in America and if your not succeeding it probably is much more your own fault than the fault of Affirmative Action which only purpose is to try to level that playing field even a little.
 

edb19

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I recently had the privilege of meeting and talking with an 88 year old black lady. She was simply delightful :smile:

Anyhow, she was talking about how her son, a good friend of mine, had education in his blood (he's a college professor). Following the civil war her grandfather taught other freed slaves. Then she mentioned her own education - a masters degree from the University of Michigan (in the 40's). All before affirmative action too (her words, not mine). She's very proud, and rightly so, of the degree that she earned on merit - not because she's a woman or a black - but solely based on her accomplishments.
 

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SouthernDemocrat said:
You right wingers are something else. You have all the money and power and you still complain. I am a white male, as such:
oh wow, in that case, you lefties are quick to jump to conclusions.

the current state of Affirmitive Action is racist and instead of advancing minorities, it sets them back. it effects whites as much, if not more. but do i think we should do away with some kind of opportunity balance? no, i dont. Affirmitive Action should be based on socioeconomic status, not race. if we took into account the income of ones family, the neighborhood they grew up in and schools they attended while leaving out the race factor, Affirmitive Action would actually work and wouldnt debase minorities while robbing honest whites of their hard work.
 
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What about intelligent white students getting denied to college because of Affirmative Action? Affirmative action is only fighting racism with more racism.
 

DannPM31

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I think we don't even need AA. If an employer wants to turn down a highly skilled black man to employ a lesser skilled white guy, he's only hurting himself and his firms preformance. My friend has worked in a shitty area of downtown, and they had to abide by the AA standards of hiring according to the surrounding population, lets just say after a legal case and lots of arb w/ gov. agencies they didn't have to do it anymore. AA is absurd.



Dann
 

jpwright

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FiremanRyan said:
Affirmitive Action should be based on socioeconomic status, not race. if we took into account the income of ones family, the neighborhood they grew up in and schools they attended while leaving out the race factor, Affirmitive Action would actually work and wouldnt debase minorities while robbing honest whites of their hard work.
But see, employers don't first judge people based on their socioeconomic status. The whole point of Affirmative Action is that since racial bias occurs during job application, if you set standards for diversity, you are more likely to allow those who have the qualifications but are of the wrong race to get a job. Otherwise, these fully qualified people get shut out and that increases the differences between races economically... kills the American dream... etc. Your idea would only work if employers denied people jobs because they were previously in a lower income bracket... which is nowhere near as prominent as racism as a factor.

The impacts of affirmative action are far overexaggerated as well. It's like nativists claiming "We can't allow immigrants in this country, they'll steal our jobs!" No one is going to steal your job. The truth of the matter is, even with Affirmative Action, there is still a large difference in the percentage of African-American and Hispanic workers compared to the percentage of white workers. If you are qualified to get the job, you probably will still get the job. Allow me to make this a little more clear.

Person A is a white high school graduate. He was born in America and did not get accepted to college. He previously worked as a waiter for a small restaurant. He is in a medium-income bracket.

Person B is a Hispanic immigrant from Mexico. In Mexico, he worked in construction-related fields since he was a child. He took over the role as director of construction for his father's business. He then legally immigrated into America and has been living in a Chicago apartment for 5 years.

The job application is for a director of construction, to supervise the creation of technical building projects. The company is made up a pretty even diversity of whites and Hispanics, yet whites generally hold the role of director and Hispanics traditionally hold the more labor-oriented jobs. The interviewer is a white. In this scenario, Affirmative Action is not in place. The white employer gets the job.

With Affirmative Action in place, the Hispanic would get the job. Why? Because he was more qualified. And if any whites were to complain about it, it would be just another example of racism. The Hispanic was clearly more qualified. This even works in reverse too.

Now suppose Person A is a Hispanic, and Person B is a white. Without Affirmative Action, the white gets the job because the interviewer is prejudiced towards whites. With Affirmative Action, the white still gets the job because he is more qualified. See, with Affirmative Action, the white can still get the job as long as the company can prove he was more qualified.

So, the point is: Affirmative Action only levels the playing field and prevents discrimination on the part of the employers.

DannPM31 said:
I think we don't even need AA. If an employer wants to turn down a highly skilled black man to employ a lesser skilled white guy, he's only hurting himself and his firms preformance. My friend has worked in a shitty area of downtown, and they had to abide by the AA standards of hiring according to the surrounding population, lets just say after a legal case and lots of arb w/ gov. agencies they didn't have to do it anymore. AA is absurd.
I disagree. Is it really fair to the black man, who is much more qualified and is probably in more need of the job? It doesn't matter if the company is hurting their own business, it's not fair, and aside from that, you just proved the economic benefits of Affirmative Action as well.
 

DannPM31

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jpwright said:
I disagree. Is it really fair to the black man, who is much more qualified and is probably in more need of the job? It doesn't matter if the company is hurting their own business, it's not fair, and aside from that, you just proved the economic benefits of Affirmative Action as well.
This is where the racial bias stems; you're assume that the black man is in more need of a job than the white/asian man. One key to Business is to hire the right people, ask any CEO or upper managment and they will tell you who they hire/take on is just as important as their product itself. SO then why should we interfear with the destruction of a business if they keep making bad HR decisions, this is a free marekt society, why are we messing around with who people hire? They are only hurting themselves. A job is not a right in the 1st place, it's a privledge. The whole system of AA is absurd, The only people who get in trouble for not hiring blacks are those who have stupid reason for not doing so. You can be hired/fired for any reason other than race,gender,or creed. All an employeer has to say is something that can only be proived by himself in court, like "I precieved his attitude would not fir in well with the rest of the team" or "I couldn't see the ambition in his eyes like I could in the other canidate". When you see these suits the defense in court was that that the white/asian guy was better qualifed, which is something that is proveable.
 

DannPM31

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jpwright said:
you just proved the economic benefits of Affirmative Action as well.

There is no economic benefits, my buddy down at this firm said they had to hire some crazy number of minorites relative to the size of the firm, 35-40%. It's a white collar firm and you can't put ads out there targeted at blacks anyways. The would have had to pay fine much bigger than legal costs if they didn't go get their case straightened out, thats why they did it. It was cost-benifit, not the falacious economic benifits of AA.
 

jpwright

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DannPM31 said:
This is where the racial bias stems; you're assume that the black man is in more need of a job than the white/asian man. One key to Business is to hire the right people, ask any CEO or upper managment and they will tell you who they hire/take on is just as important as their product itself. SO then why should we interfear with the destruction of a business if they keep making bad HR decisions, this is a free marekt society, why are we messing around with who people hire? They are only hurting themselves. A job is not a right in the 1st place, it's a privledge. The whole system of AA is absurd, The only people who get in trouble for not hiring blacks are those who have stupid reason for not doing so. You can be hired/fired for any reason other than race,gender,or creed. All an employeer has to say is something that can only be proived by himself in court, like "I precieved his attitude would not fir in well with the rest of the team" or "I couldn't see the ambition in his eyes like I could in the other canidate". When you see these suits the defense in court was that that the white/asian guy was better qualifed, which is something that is proveable.
I assume that the black man is in more need of a job because blacks are traditionally discriminated against during job application processes. Additionally, it's not fair to let the company discriminate against minorities even if it is a bad decision from a business point of view - that may be an obligation to not discriminate, but it still happens anyway, leaving a greater economic difference between whites and minorities.

You're right. People can't prove discrimination because the employer can lie about it. Which is exactly why affirmative action is needed, because it mandates the hiring of applying minorities. It's sort of like a compromise between businesses and minorities. Although with capitalism it's impossible to please both sides, affirmative action is really the only feasible way to help minorities without totally killing business.

I find it rather appalling when people say that affirmative action is racist to minorities because it attempts to help them. Statistics say otherwise - minorities are prejudiced against, and without affirmative action they will stay that way. Either way, it's still not an ivory tower scenario, rich whites are far from the only group in the Democratic party.

DannPM31 said:
There is no economic benefits, my buddy down at this firm said they had to hire some crazy number of minorites relative to the size of the firm, 35-40%. It's a white collar firm and you can't put ads out there targeted at blacks anyways. The would have had to pay fine much bigger than legal costs if they didn't go get their case straightened out, thats why they did it. It was cost-benifit, not the falacious economic benifits of AA.
See, when businesses hire minorities that really are more qualified, that helps the business and thereby helps the economy. Of course, in rare reverse situations, there can be economic downfalls as well, but in the long run the net benefit is still positive.
 
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F41

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jpwright said:
I assume that the black man is in more need of a job because blacks are traditionally discriminated against during job application processes. Additionally, it's not fair to let the company discriminate against minorities even if it is a bad decision from a business point of view - that may be an obligation to not discriminate, but it still happens anyway, leaving a greater economic difference between whites and minorities.
This in it`s self is discrimination against the white men and women. Why not hire who would benefit the company more financially then hire based on race? If a black man or woman is more productive for the company, then hire them, If a white man or woman is more productive for that company, Hire them. They should not be hired because they are black, white, red, or yellow.

Affirmative Action= Discrimination...
 

aps

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ThePhoenix said:
This in it`s self is discrimination against the white men and women. Why not hire who would benefit the company more financially then hire based on race? If a black man or woman is more productive for the company, then hire them, If a white man or woman is more productive for that company, Hire them. They should not be hired because they are black, white, red, or yellow.

Affirmative Action= Discrimination...
OMG, Phoenix, I agree. I do not support affirmative action.
 

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You right wingers are something else. You have all the money and power and you still complain. I am a white male, as such:

- I statistically get paid more than women or minorities in the same profession as I am.

- I statistically enjoy a higher standard of living than minorities and single women.

- I statistically enjoy better healthcare than minorities and I have a longer projected lifespan because of it.

- To top it off, a very disproportionate number of those who represent me are white males just like me. In fact the good old Republican Party who claims to have such a big tent, has not even put the money and resources behind one African American to get them elected to either House of Congress. Basically almost all Republicans look just like me and since they are the party in power, things could not look better for me and all my white male peers.

I grew up poor, and through hard work have done ok so far in life. My wife and I having good careers with good benefits and as such live good middle class lives. I like to attribute my success in life so far (I am not rich, I just have a job that I like doing that pays me decently) to hard work and constantly educating myself in technologies related to my career (I am a Systems Administrator), but still I have to admit a small part of my success probably has to do with me being a white male and all those advantages that go along with that. In fact, in the vast majority of companies I have worked for, the vast majority of the best jobs seemed to go to white males like myself, or the occasional white woman. My point in all this being is that if you’re a white male, you already have a leg up on any one else ion the road of life here in America and if your not succeeding it probably is much more your own fault than the fault of Affirmative Action which only purpose is to try to level that playing field even a little.
the white man wins..thats the american dream!
 

craigfarmer

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Connecticutter said:
Can anyone give an example of when an Affirmative Action program in any country has ever succeeded in eliminating inequality between groups? Has affirmative action ever led to better race relations?

I can't find any such examples.

The liberals here, as usual, have good intentions, but their perscribed policies will never produce the results they want. Reverse discrimination is not the answer.

For a person to ask whether any A.A. program has ever succeeded ..... is appalling. The answer is Yes, Yes, Yes. So much so that we should expand A.A. beyond race and gender into ideology, geography, physical appearance and other areas where qualified people are given an equal chance to succeed. America is the best country ever because millions of people pursue their own self-interest in a way that ultimately helps us all as a society. The more people we include in this pursuit, the more productive and successful our country will continue to be. Because of past inequities an equal chance for many still means they need a preference. We need AA in many areas including:

We should have more conservatives as college professors and high school teachers.

We should have more rural and westerners on the staff of the nytimes, washpost and other major papers.

We should have more Christians in hollywood.


The key is to truly offer every person in America a chance to reach their God-given potential. This must be done by taking A.A. at first.


My def. of A.A. is Making an expansive effort to find all qualified applicants for a position based on relevant criteria, and then using diversity as 1 of many selection criteria to make the final decision.

Some jobs/positions demand "the highest/best" qualified, (like the best airline pilot, these should not be subject to AA)

But most don't require the "best" because it is very subjective. Take a position like Federal Reserve Chairman, or a even a Walmart store clerk, there aren't RELEVANT criteria that would deem someone better than another person beyond basic qualifications. So we should work to make sure each person, no matter what "group" they belong to has a fair chance.


Here are the examples you sought:

--college scholarship programs such as the one I received "Martin Luther King" scholarship at Seton Hall University which was for "minorities". I graduated with honors, and now have a Masters from the same school. Millions have done likewise over the past 40 years. The result is we have a stable black middle class whose values mirror the rest of America so much so, that a fast growing sub-group are Republicans! see Michael Steele md., ken blackwell ohio, colin powell, Condi Rice and 1000's more

--the military has had an A.A. program for decades to close the racial gap between the enlisted and privates, and the leadership. They have had a program with aggressive targets that have succeeded in making the military the most diverse institution with the least racial strife in the country. Also, we have the best military on the planet, bar none.

--in the private sector the examples are endless but here are a few:

- broadcasting-- which used to be nearly all white and male , has undergone a sea change due to conscious hiring practices AA for decades. The end result is that we now have not only qualified minorities in lead roles like Greg Gumbel, James Brown, Gus Johnson, Mike Torico,etc., we have many in lesser roles. Now today there are students such as my children who won't need any AA programs to compete because they have role models, examples, and a road map of how to succeed. The gap has been closed in this area.


-magazine publishing-- the history of that industry showed discrimination was overcome by a few individuals taking AA to hire, promote, advertise with African-americans to get them started. John Johnson and others made it not because people and business made a financial decision per se, but they took AA to help a fledgling group. The end result is we now have a plethora of magazines, with thousands on staff, with millions of readers, and the gap is closed in terms of readership, and opportunities.


Last example involves women:

title IX, which was affirmative action for women in College athletics. Even when there wasn't a"market" and women didn't want to participate at the level of men on college campuses. We used AA to give scholarships and other resources to women that was equal to the men. The end result is that women became more interested and the facts show we have changed America for the better with a variety of sports for women. In 1999, over 90,000 people watched a women's world cup match. That closed the gap.


There are many abuses that can and do occur. I am on the side of "what is best for America", and am glad to discuss the changes necessary. This takes an allegiance to the facts and not emotion.

Craig Farmer
making the word "liberal" safe again!
 

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lheard said:
How Many Of You Against Affirmative Action Have Ever Been Denied A Job Because Of It? When You Answer That Let's Talk.
Is this an indication you have?

So by your argument only people collecting Social Security should be able to
vote for it or weigh in on it. The same would go for any other program.
Sorry to burst your bubble but every single voting age citizen has the right
to opine on this issue.
 
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