Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity charges

[rivrrat]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

But it does for the argument Kori's making.

I understand your point. That whether the majority view it as degrading or not doesn't matter, because an individual might not find it degrading because they're agreeing to be a part of it.

However I believe Kori's point is whether or not an individual may find it "degrading", the genre as a whole based on the majority cultural view point is that of "degradation", and such images promoting degradation of women is a negative thing and is just that...degrading...regardless if a minority don't find it degrading.

But that's just it... his "point", IMO, is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the majority finds degrading. If I choose to engage in or film myself doing, or watch films that "degrade" women... it hurts no one. Hell, no one even fricken knows about it! lol

I guess I'm taking this from more of a male view point, where the appeal to this kind of thing is the notion of power (akin to why its theorized rape usually happens) without the legal stigma's of actual rape. The degradation of the female IS the turn on for the majority that like this style I'd imagine.

I could go into the psychological reasons why women find it appealing, but do you know what it often comes back to? The fact that society - in general - represses a woman's sexual desires. So, the condemnation and banning of these types of things only adds fuel to the fire. It only feeds the desire, the need, to do them.

And do you have any idea how many women BEG for those 'degrading' things to be done to them? Millions. And I'm not exaggerating. Millions. I'm in the BDSM scene, I frequent forums, BDSM 'dating' sites and the like and there are... Millions. There are 35 million members in one dating site I go to. And, I am considered quite 'vanilla' in the BDSM scene, if that gives you ANY indication at all. :lol:

Correct. I'm not determining it. Well, let me take that back. I'm assuming that the majority of them did it for the reasons I theorized about because the majority of the ones that I knew in the grades near me that did the same thing when we were underclassmen generally expressed regrets for it or reasons for it outside of "for sexual pleasure".

Women express those same regrets during "normal" sex too. All the time.

 

[Sov]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Because what you think is right is not necessarily right.

A lesson would-be censors would do well to finally learn.

In much the same way that you view censorship as a breach of your rights, society at large can view your pleasures as violating the rights of others (if, say, you leave your incredibly vague notion stand as an absolute position). I'm sure you are willing to give way to exceptions to that rule.

There's an exception to every rule, including the rule that there should be an exception to every rule. :mrgreen:

My position was vague in the acceptance of certain pornography. Likewise, I am hesitant to quite figure out what should be legislated against other than some of the more obvious (child porn featuring child actors is to me, something that obviously should be censored.

The rationale that child pornography should be contraband because crimes were involved in its production does not hold up. Footage of actual murders, suicides, and gruesome accidents are readily available to the public. We do not censor Holocaust footage. Is child rape worse than the Holocaust? It's already legal for the state investigators and law enforcers to view child pornography and they claim it is evidence of a massive multi-billion dollar CP industry. Why should we take the word of cops and investigators who have a track record of dishonesty (recall the "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scam). Why should they be allowed privileged access to information? Freedom of inquiry and expression must be available equally to all, with special privileges for none.

Moreover, child pornography laws under the status quo are batsh!t crazy. A 15 year old and a 5 year old are both considered "children" under these laws. Whether someone is legal for sexual activity is pegged to an arbitrary age rather than a true appraisal of ability to consent. Even within those already poor parameters, it gets even worse: in many states the age of consent for sexual activity is 16, yet a 16 year old texting pics of herself in sexy poses can get charged with the production and distribution of child pornography.

The insanity goes beyond the laws themselves. Sentencing for CP can easily get into the centuries or millennia (literally). Someone caught with a few pictures or one video might get more time than a father who raped his preteen daughter for years (for example).

 

[misterman]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

A lesson would-be censors would do well to finally learn. There's an exception to every rule, including the rule that there should be an exception to every rule. :mrgreen:
The rationale that child pornography should be contraband because crimes were involved in its production does not hold up. Footage of actual murders, suicides, and gruesome accidents are readily available to the public. We do not censor Holocaust footage. Is child rape worse than the Holocaust?

No, but child rape is still happening. The Holocaust isn't. Child porn encourages future child abuse to make the films.

 

[Sov]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

And really here's your huge problem. You're pissy about the war and want to interject it in any other conversation which is obvious from this entire post with your AA comments and these.

If that were true I'd mention it in most of my posts here, and I don't. I'm also hardly a "prude" when it comes to the military or violence. I have militaria, grew up playing war sims and still do on occasion, have friends from military families. I also lack a hysterical attitude toward guns and self-defense including defense against tyranny (I support these more than any Republican in office does). But that hardly means I can't see through the scams of fraudsters who profit off the deaths of people braver than themselves. What I described in my previous reply just happens to be a good example of how screwed up much of society is. I ought to be able to address the rest of your post later, just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

To the extent this is true, that's a big part of why "society" is sick. Once you're a hypocrite and shrug it off by telling yourself "oh well, everyone is a hypocrite," you'll ultimately stand for any bigotry and any hypocrisy. Eventually it may be sex-negative bigots/hypocrites who are shunned. I'm comfortable with that notion.

Well, I could answer in a way you want, which would be to deny that we are hypocrites, and then be labeled a hypocrite anyway. Or I could put up my hands and say, yeah, we probably all are hypocrites. Which would you prefer I do?

But I'm not really going down a sliding slope. I'm mostly comfortable with how we run things now (aside from my disagreement about jailing Max Hardcore, even though I find some of the fetishes abhorrent) , and not really interested in moving one direction or another, so I don't really understand how sooner or later I would advocate for anything more later on.

And yes, responsible government legislates morality in the broad sense. They all do. I'm just more wary of doing so than most social conservatives.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Why not?

Why can't humans be hypocrites but society leave them alone? Why can't we put our irrational heads together and build a rational society? If we didn't strive for that, we wouldn't have a society at all, or rule of law, or any of that stuff.



I don't.

Building a completely rational society is the work of political philosophers for pedagogical purposes, and nothing more. I don't give up on justice or some liberty, but unless we are arguing over misunderstandings (which I'm still hoping for), I'm finding your continued offense towards me seriously naive and slightly irritating.

 

[Fiddytree]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

This doesn't justify the status quo, anymore than it justifies societies in which the male ruling class has people hanged for sexual immorality and privately has access to harems of teenage prostitutes. A society doesn't have to be as sexually repressed, hysterical and hypocritical as status quo America any more than America's ally, Saudi Arabia.

You are right, it does not inherently justify positions. However, conceptually, paradoxes are a given.

 

[Sov]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Aaaahhh!

Just heard of him on another board for the first time. He won't leave me alone!

I didn't know he invented the term. I learned it from the porn film "Cafe Flesh". In it, the world is mostly sex negatives, who all flock to the cafe to watch the few sex-positives perform a cabaret sex act. The negatives desperately want to have sex, but can't because they get severely ill when they try.

Watch it for a while, and pretty soon you realize YOU are a sex-negative, watching others have sex on the screen.

I'll check it out. That will actually be true for someone who stops at just watching and never has any "real" (social) sex in his/her life.

Regarding sex-positivity, in "The Necessary Revolution: Sex-Positive Feminism in the Post-Barnard Era," Carol Queen writes:

It’s the cultural philosophy that understands sexuality as a potentially positive force in one’s life, and it can, of course, be contrasted with sex-negativity, which sees sex as problematic, disruptive, dangerous. Sex-positivity allows for and in fact celebrates sexual diversity, differing desires and relationships structures, and individual choices based on consent.
​

 

[rivrrat]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

You know, after thinking about... Korimyr, do you feel the same about romance novels that millions of women enjoy worldwide? They're chocked full of rape. And they're books usually written BY women, FOR women. Most women consider them erotica. Should they be banned as well?

 

[Sov]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

No, but child rape is still happening.

So is homicide and footage of it isn't automatically contraband. And contraband status creates privileged access rather than preventing access.

 

[rivrrat]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

So is homicide and footage of it isn't automatically contraband.

Ahh... but they are contraband if the murder was perpetrated for the purposes of the video. They have a name for those, and they ARE illegal.

 

[Sov]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Ahh... but they are contraband if the murder was perpetrated for the purposes of the video. They have a name for those, and they ARE illegal.

Sniff films? Snopes actually claims they don't exist. :2razz:

snopes.com: Snuff Films

I've also seen pedophiles flat out claim that child pornography doesn't exist, which strikes me as silly, all the more considering how cheap and common cams are these days. However, people in general should be able to review the evidence for themselves, and not have to rely on "authorities" who just a few years ago wanted us to believe that there were Satanic Ritual Abuse rings all over the place.

Also, I'm referring above to pornography involving actual prepubescents. Yet CP under the current legal definition would include productions involving consenting teenagers who happen to be under the current age of majority. "Authorities" will often play up the preteen porn when in fact it may well be a tiny percentage of the total. Why would they do that? Because they want more recognition and more money for their programs. Dishonest legislators want to be able to push through bills and pork that supposedly protect the children. Such "crusaders for teh children" have conflicts of interest.

Repression and censorship have an awful track record when it comes to problem solving. Accountability goes hand in hand with transparency. Free debate requires equal access to knowledge pertinent to the debate. When select groups legally monopolize access to certain knowledge this contributes to the further concentration of power in the hands of very few people. At the same time, any "black market" that might exist will continue to grow, cloaked in the shadows of taboo from public scrutiny. Exploiters of moral panic are expert at using this situation to their advantage.

 

[Sov]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

You know, after thinking about... Korimyr, do you feel the same about romance novels that millions of women enjoy worldwide? They're chocked full of rape. And they're books usually written BY women, FOR women. Most women consider them erotica. Should they be banned as well?

Hmm. Good point. And what about erotic fanfic? Do "mpreg" stories about forcing men to get pregnant and sodomized by giant octopuses present a healthy way of treating our fellow human beings? :2razz:

If Korimyr thinks Max Hardcore is nasty or disturbing he should also check out some of the female-created yaoi, manga, and other pornographic cartoons out there.

You're touching upon a key problem with so much of the anti-porn argumentation out there: generally, porn doesn't create desires nearly so much as it reflects desires that were already there in the first place. And not merely in the few, but in the many.

 

[misterman]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Building a completely rational society is the work of political philosophers for pedagogical purposes, and nothing more. I don't give up on justice or some liberty, but unless we are arguing over misunderstandings (which I'm still hoping for), I'm finding your continued offense towards me seriously naive and slightly irritating.

Offense? Oh come on. I call for a more rational society (an ideal I think our country was founded on, by rationalists who believed in it) and that's offense? It's a debate board, tough it out. I find it an offense to be told I can't handle watching a particular movie like a child (by censors, not you).

 

[misterman]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

I'll check it out. That will actually be true for someone who stops at just watching and never has any "real" (social) sex in his/her life.

Regarding sex-positivity, in "The Necessary Revolution: Sex-Positive Feminism in the Post-Barnard Era," Carol Queen writes:

It’s the cultural philosophy that understands sexuality as a potentially positive force in one’s life, and it can, of course, be contrasted with sex-negativity, which sees sex as problematic, disruptive, dangerous. Sex-positivity allows for and in fact celebrates sexual diversity, differing desires and relationships structures, and individual choices based on consent.
​

Thanks. Interesting stuff.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

You know, after thinking about... Korimyr, do you feel the same about romance novels that millions of women enjoy worldwide? They're chocked full of rape. And they're books usually written BY women, FOR women. Most women consider them erotica. Should they be banned as well?

I don't think it's necessary. I may not like the way these novels handle rape-- especially the idea that decent and otherwise worthy men will engage in it-- but a woman who reads these novels isn't identifying with the rapist and hopefully isn't building an emotional connection between being abused and getting off. I'd say there's an important psychological difference between being pressured to play the attacker and being pressured to play the victim, so even if the fantasy does develop into a fetish, there's less harm done.

Aside from that nasty little bit of unwholesomeness, they are called "romance" novels for good reason-- they're based in the romantic notion that brutes can be civilized into properly attentive and caring partners. This may not be the greatest idea in the world, but at least what it is glamorizing is the endstate where the male romantic interest has a proper appreciation for the heroine.

If Korimyr thinks Max Hardcore is nasty or disturbing he should also check out some of the female-created yaoi, manga, and other pornographic cartoons out there.

I have. I feel the same way about them. I've read enough Highlander Duncan/Methos rape slash to last a lifetime-- that is to say, almost half of one story-- and I've talked to enough other fanfic writers to say that I'd rather prefer they were out in the world having sex than sitting in their rooms writing about it. At very least they might learn something about the subject, and hopefully they might be inclined to channel their creative impulses in a more wholesome direction.

 

[rivrrat]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

I don't think it's necessary. I may not like the way these novels handle rape-- especially the idea that decent and otherwise worthy men will engage in it-- but a woman who reads these novels isn't identifying with the rapist and hopefully isn't building an emotional connection between being abused and getting off. I'd say there's an important psychological difference between being pressured to play the attacker and being pressured to play the victim, so even if the fantasy does develop into a fetish, there's less harm done.

Aside from that nasty little bit of unwholesomeness, they are called "romance" novels for good reason-- they're based in the romantic notion that brutes can be civilized into properly attentive and caring partners. This may not be the greatest idea in the world, but at least what it is glamorizing is the endstate where the male romantic interest has a proper appreciation for the heroine.

Yeah, they're based on the "romantic" notion that men will overpower, dominate, and control women and force them to do what they want, when they want.. and the women will fall in love with them for it and they'll live happily ever after. Wonderful notion, eh? To fall for your rapist?

So, just how isn't the woman reading these novels and masturbating to the scenes where the man brutalizes the heroine NOT "identifying" with the rapist and building an "emotional connection" between rape and getting off? Because the absolute sexiest scenes are the rape ones. Not the end where they "fall in love" and she just ignores all the brutality he did to her. The masturbatory scenes are not in the end of the book.

You're just making excuses now for your inconsistencies. You say "hopefully" she isn't building these so-called "emotional connections". But can we really afford to take that chance? What if... *gasp*... she IS? Should she really be allowed to do that? Should she really be allowed to reach sexual pleasure that way?

Also:

I'd say there's an important psychological difference between being pressured to play the attacker and being pressured to play the victim, so even if the fantasy does develop into a fetish, there's less harm done.

wait wait wait... I thought it was "degrading" and "humiliating" and setting some bad example. So now the issue is the men and women portraying the Doms in these porn movies? Not the men and women being degraded, but the ones doing the "degradation" to them?

As Sov already said... these things do not create desires. They are an expression of desires that already exist for 10s of millions of people.

 

[1069]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

So, just how isn't the woman reading these novels and masturbating to the scenes where the man brutalizes the heroine NOT "identifying" with the rapist and building an "emotional connection" between rape and getting off? Because the absolute sexiest scenes are the rape ones.

That's a matter of opinion.
I find nothing "sexy" about rape whatsoever.
It's a complete turn-off to me; in fact, it's difficult for me to even read about. It's one of the rare things that makes me feel squeamish and uncomfortable.
I think, as a woman, I identify too much with the victims, and their victimization makes me feel both angry and somehow ashamed (even though there's no reason for them to feel ashamed- it's not their fault, obviously- and no reason for me to feel ashamed on their behalf; I realize this, but it's not something I have any control over).

I can understand how/ why a rape survivor would find rape scenes a turn-on. It is probably quite healthy and empowering; a sort of reclamation.

 

[Psychoclown]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

I'm not going to quote Zyph's super long post, but I agree with it 100%.

I don't think Max Hardcore should be jailed or the material banned because I'm not at all comfortable with government imposing subjective moral values on us, especially at the cost of our freedom of expression.

On the other hand, let's not pretend that all porn is equal and its all a beautiful expression of human sexuality. There is some pretty twisted stuff out there and there is nothing wrong with society attaching stigmas to some things as an effort to discourage it, without relying on the heavy hand of government to outright ban it.

 

[Vader]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

Ahh... but they are contraband if the murder was perpetrated for the purposes of the video. They have a name for those, and they ARE illegal.

We're not discussing snuff films here. Ger back on topic or depart the thread.

 

[Vader]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

I'm not going to quote Zyph's super long post, but I agree with it 100%.

I don't think Max Hardcore should be jailed or the material banned because I'm not at all comfortable with government imposing subjective moral values on us, especially at the cost of our freedom of expression.

On the other hand, let's not pretend that all porn is equal and its all a beautiful expression of human sexuality. There is some pretty twisted stuff out there and there is nothing wrong with society attaching stigmas to some things as an effort to discourage it, without relying on the heavy hand of government to outright ban it.

I agree.

I think the prosecutor and the judge involved in this case need to be disbarred. What they did is a BLATANT violation of the 1st Amendment.

Mr. Little needs to sue Florida for all its worth. It's time for the Floridian stupidity bubble to be burst.

 

[misterman]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

I'm not going to quote Zyph's super long post, but I agree with it 100%.

I don't think Max Hardcore should be jailed or the material banned because I'm not at all comfortable with government imposing subjective moral values on us, especially at the cost of our freedom of expression.

On the other hand, let's not pretend that all porn is equal and its all a beautiful expression of human sexuality. There is some pretty twisted stuff out there and there is nothing wrong with society attaching stigmas to some things as an effort to discourage it, without relying on the heavy hand of government to outright ban it.

Nobody's saying all porn is pretty. Just that the government shouldn't be involved.

 

[rivrrat]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

We're not discussing snuff films here. Ger back on topic or depart the thread.

Jesus ****ing christ, who the **** do you think you are?

 

[rivrrat]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

That's a matter of opinion.
I find nothing "sexy" about rape whatsoever.
It's a complete turn-off to me; in fact, it's difficult for me to even read about. It's one of the rare things that makes me feel squeamish and uncomfortable.
I think, as a woman, I identify too much with the victims, and their victimization makes me feel both angry and somehow ashamed (even though there's no reason for them to feel ashamed- it's not their fault, obviously- and no reason for me to feel ashamed on their behalf; I realize this, but it's not something I have any control over).

I can understand how/ why a rape survivor would find rape scenes a turn-on. It is probably quite healthy and empowering; a sort of reclamation.

Of course it's a matter of opinion, all books are. But since rape fantasies are the number one female fantasy, there's apparently something to it.

And the fantasy has nothing to do with actual rape. It has to do with removing feelings of guilt, scorn, and disdain associated with wanting to have sex with someone.

 

[Tsunami]

Re: Adult film director Max Hardcore sentenced to 4 years in prison on obscenity char

I'm not going to quote Zyph's super long post, but I agree with it 100%.

I don't think Max Hardcore should be jailed or the material banned because I'm not at all comfortable with government imposing subjective moral values on us, especially at the cost of our freedom of expression.

On the other hand, let's not pretend that all porn is equal and its all a beautiful expression of human sexuality. There is some pretty twisted stuff out there and there is nothing wrong with society attaching stigmas to some things as an effort to discourage it, without relying on the heavy hand of government to outright ban it.

Society is stupid. Masturbation does not give you hairy palms. If you stick your tongue out your face will not freeze like that. Society attaches stigmas to thousands of things that are totally harmless. Society doesn't mind if you ban things that they disapprove of, they aren't smart enough to understand that they could be next. Laws should protect people from society, not the other way around.

It shouldn't matter what is twisted to you or to me, because everyone has a different idea. What should matter is the actual real world effects of your actions. Chuck Berry hiding video cameras in public toilets should be illegal. But if a porn star wants to get paid for crapping on someone then what does it hurt?