ADHD: Video Game and Substance Abuse (1 Viewer)

[FreeThinker]

I wrote this post on a forum for a game I used to play but quit a few months ago. I make a lot of references to "l2" which stands for "Lineage 2", an online game with roughly 100,000 American players:

This post is written for the people that play/have played this game compulsively over a long period of time like I have.

What makes people play this game for 20 hours straight? What makes them login day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year... ?

Why do we need to live an entire life inside this pretend world of clans and castles and farmers? Is 200 hours of your life worth a skillset? Is 400 hours of your life worth a better weapon? What drives us to endlessly strive for just a little bit more adena, just a few more %, just one more level?

First you have to ask yourself what the characteristics of a hardcore gamer are:

1. Unmotivated in real life
2. Irregular sleep schedule
*3. "He/she is not living up to his/her potential" is something commonly said from educators
4. Gets bored easily
5. Does badly in school
*6. Puts things off/procrastinates
7. Unhappy with life
8. Relies on other people such as parents/spouses/friends for support
*9. "He/she is so smart but doesn't apply himself/herself"
10. Discipline problems
*11. Consumes large amounts of cigarettes, alcohol, and/or coffee
12. Severe mood swings
13. Short temper
14. "Thrillseeker"
*15. Short attention span for things that don't interest him/her
16. House/room is disorganized
17. Focuses on one game intensely/does not want to learn new games
18. Drives fast/is impatient when driving/has many traffic violations
19. Periods of being hyper focused followed by periods of distraction
20. High IQ
21. Gambling (blow up any homus lately?)
*22. Low energy

Do more than a few of these things describe you? Chances are that if you are over level 76 in Lineage most do. You're intelligent but bored with life. Lineage provides an escape from the endless bullshit of school and work.

Guess what all of these characteristics describe?

ADHD or Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
** Note: ADD is an outdated term for ADHD, there is no difference

First you have to understand exactly what ADHD is. It is NOT something that makes you stupid or less able than other people. They call it a disorder so when most people think of ADHD they think of some drooling ****ing retard running around the classroom screaming and yelling. Know this:

Most adults with ADHD are not hyperactive. They don't run around yelling and screaming, they just get bored easily and can't focus. When you're ADHD you can be either "inattentive type" (attention deficit) or "hyperactive type" or both. Most adults that have ADHD are NOT hyperactive even if they were when they were children. ADHD is not black and white. It is a sliding scale of severity that is slight in some and very pronounced in others. Testing for ADHD is almost impossible since different people manifest the disorder in different ways. ADHD does not start in adulthood. If you did not have these same problems when you were a child then chances are it is depression and not ADHD.

ADHD brains have lower levels of dopamine and norepinephrine. These two big words are actually very simple things:

Dopamine is a chemical that your brain produces as a reward when something good happens. It increases your heart rate, wakes you up, and makes you euphoric. Gambling and thrillseeking release dopamine in your brain.
Dopamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Norepinephrine is part of the "fight or flight" chemical your brain gives you when you're in danger. It kills your appetite, makes your muscles ready, increases coordination, and makes you focus intensely. Norephinephrine is converted by your body into Epinephrine (adrenaline).
Norepinephrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People with chronically low levels of these two substances have patterns of behavior that were described in the previous questions. People with ADHD are often "thrillseekers" because they crave higher levels of Dopamine and Norepinephrine. Next time you feel like blowing up your weapon consider the fact that what you really want isn't a +16 weapon, but an increase in something your brain is lacking.

Smoke a lot of cigarettes? Guess what nicotine does: it increases your dopamine levels: Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Drink a lot of alcohol? It's depressant that can work as a stimulant in certain parts of the brain (Effects of alcohol on the body) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Coffee? increases levels of both dopamine AND adrenaline. Caffeine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So why do people with ADHD drink so much coffee/smoke so many cigarettes/drink so much alcohol? It is an unconscious attempt to self medicate low levels of dopamine and norepinephrine.
ADHD, Alcoholism and Other Addictions

An L2 player who plays 16 hours a day, consumes a lot of nicotine/caffeine/alcohol, and blows up weapons is a CLASSIC case of ADHD.
Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So I can already hear my old friend LangLang saying: "finalElf shut the **** up with your norepa****it and dopacock******. What do you know you powerleveling has-been emotastic assmaster."

Well my cute little dwarven friend, here is your salvation:

Adderall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To know what Adderall does you first have to understand it's parent drug: Cocaine.
Cocaine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cocaine is what's called a reuptake inhibitor. Basically it stops your brain from getting rid of the chemicals it produces. Your brain builds up high levels of dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, sodium, and a ton of other crap. It's also a potent pain killer.

Cocaine makes people insane because it turns their brains into a toxic stew of various naturally produced chemicals that your body can't get rid of. On top of this it kills pain. The end result is a painless crazy and hyperstimulated person.

Adderall is much more specific and controlled: it focuses only on dopamine and norepinephrine and is not a painkiller. The release of the drug in your system is slower when taken orally.

The result is this: an increase in happiness, euphoria, focus, coordination, and communication without the crazy painlessness of cocaine.

But this isn't a miracle drug. It has side effects. First of all, it is ****ing addictive. After you spend 20 hours blazing through your math book and completing a term paper you aren't going to want to stop taking it. Since it increases your "fight or flight" response, you aren't going to have an appetite. I deal with the weight loss by taking multivitamins and drinking protein shakes. Since it is a stimulant it is also going to keep you awake for long periods of time. You have to plan when you take it so it doesn't **** up your sleep schedule.

Once your brain gets higher levels of dopamine it is going to want more and more. People chain smoke on cocaine and sometimes Adderall because they crave even higher levels of dopamine. This is where self control comes into play.

When you take Adderall you have to stop for a few days at a time and let your body catch up. DON'T TAKE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY. The prescription from your doctor will tell you to take one every morning, but that is bullshit. If I took this every day I wouldn't be sleeping or eating. You MUST stop for at least two days a week (stop longer in between school semesters) to let your body get rest and nourishment.

If you take too much Adderall over long periods of time it is going to **** up your brain's ability to use/produce dopamine, which leads to depression. You MUST take breaks or you're going to end up in rehab.

Taking this drug when you've had problems focusing your entire life is like waking up from a dream. You won't want to login l2 anymore. You won't want to play video games 18 hours a day. You will CRAVE constructive things to do. I was failing the same math class for the third time in a row when I started this drug. By the end of the semester I had the highest final exam score out of any student in the college taking that level of math (it took them an extra four days to grade my exam to make sure I didn't cheat). I'm far enough ahead now that there is a good chance I'm going to completely test out of Calculus 1 and skip right to advanced physics for engineering. I also got the highest final exam score out of any sign language student at the college.

If you think this post applies to you, try to get an appointment with a psychiatrist. General medicine (family) doctors typically don't have a ****ing clue about the causes and treatments of ADHD. They will be afraid to prescribe it to you because of the potential for abuse. Search locally for a psychiatrist (not psychologist) that specializes in ADHD and tell him about your addiction to video games and patterns of behavior. Tell him that you want to try Adderall and see if it helps. Most medical insurance companies cover psychiatrists as well as Adderall. The generic drug of Adderall is called "amphetamine salts". It is the exact same thing and costs half as much. $70 for a thirty day supply in Florida, $20 if you have drug insurance.

DON'T BUY ADDERALL FROM FRIENDS IN COLLEGE. It's a felony. If you get caught buying it illegally you might as well have been buying cocaine. DON'T TAKE IT FOR FUN. Chasing the high is what is going to make you seriously addicted and **** up your life (ecstasy is very similar to Adderall). Take it an hour before you go to class or on a day when you have a good 6 hours to spend studying. Most importantly: TAKE REGULAR BREAKS FROM ADDERALL. Your body needs food and sleep. Test your resolve by staying off Adderall during school breaks for a few weeks at a time. If you are unable to stop taking the drug you need to talk to your psychiatrist about it. He/she won't lock you up or send you to rehab. There are alternatives to Adderall that might work better for you and your doctor will help you decide what's best.

Again if you did not have these same problems when you were a child then you probably don't have ADHD. It is not something you develop as an adult. You might just be depressed. Depression is medicated differently. A psychiatrist can explore this and properly medicate you with something like Prozac (another reputake inhibitor like Adderall, but it increases levels of serotonin instead of dopamine and norepinephrine).

I wrote this post because I know there are many current l2 players who are just like I was before discovering Adderall. I want all the people I used to know and play this game with to understand why they play so much and how they can fix it. If you play l2 because of ADHD Adderall is going to change your life for the better.

Good luck.

 

[1069]

** Note: ADD is an outdated term for ADHD, there is no difference

I'm not sure this is the case.
I believe there are a number of people who suffer from attention deficit disorder without manifesting the hyperactive symptoms characteristic of ADHD.
I believe there is a difference between Attention Deficit Disorder and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, although the two terms are often used interchangeably, and although both disorders are overdiagnosed and/or misdiagnosed.

 

[FreeThinker]

I spent the last two nights researching this. ADD used to be the term for both attention deficit and hyperactivity. They started calling it ADHD because a person could be primary attention deficit, primary hyperactive, or both.

These are the predominantly hyperactive-impulsive type (that does not show significant inattention); the predominantly inattentive type (that does not show significant hyperactive-impulsive behavior) sometimes called ADD—an outdated term for this entire disorder; and the combined type (that displays both inattentive and hyperactive-impulsive symptoms).

NIMH: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

 

[Rhapsody1447]

Thank You Thank You Thank You!!!

Wow you might as well have written my biography. I used to be BEYOND addicted to World of Warcraft. I finally broke the addiction a couple months ago because of the destruction it had wreak on my life. I used to average 10 hours a day and I am in high school! 3pm-1am! Failing in school when I knew I could pass. WOW! Loved this post, now I understand why I got so much more addicted than my other friends did. You should post this on the WoW forums.

 

[FreeThinker]

Thank You Thank You Thank You!!!

Wow you might as well have written my biography. I used to be BEYOND addicted to World of Warcraft. I finally broke the addiction a couple months ago because of the destruction it had wreak on my life. I used to average 10 hours a day and I am in high school! 3pm-1am! Failing in school when I knew I could pass. WOW! Loved this post, now I understand why I got so much more addicted than my other friends did. You should post this on the WoW forums.

They probably wouldn't like that. I'm advocating a drug that is going to make them quit video games.

You're welcome to copy and paste anything I've written here on any site you like though (customize it from l2 to wow if you want). Just edit the word "reputake" to "reuptake". I messed up the spelling on that term.

 

[Captain America]

I don't do video games. I just don't get it. Even the youngest child can beat me. I honestly can't say I ever spent over 2 minutes trying either.

But.....

Do you suppose if I learn how to play video games I could get the Doc to write me out a script? That sounds like the shiznet! I want some! :mrgreen:

 

[FreeThinker]

I don't do video games. I just don't get it. Even the youngest child can beat me. I honestly can't say I ever spent over 2 minutes trying either.

But.....

Do you suppose if I learn how to play video games I could get the Doc to write me out a script? That sounds like the shiznet! I want some! :mrgreen:

Video games are not the primary teller of people with ADHD. They just happened to be an escape for me personally and some of the people I used to play with.

Playing video games doesn't mean you have ADHD, but playing them compulsively to escape reality is a warning sign.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

You nailed this, FreeThinker. Having worked with ADD teens over the past 16 years, I can tell you, from experience, that this is right on target, and something adhered to by those in the psychological field. It is amazing how many teens with ADD are addicted to video games, and how hard it is for them to stop.

 

[Thorgasm]

You nailed this, FreeThinker. Having worked with ADD teens over the past 16 years, I can tell you, from experience, that this is right on target, and something adhered to by those in the psychological field. It is amazing how many teens with ADD are addicted to video games, and how hard it is for them to stop.

I have to disagree. ADHD didn't exist 50 years ago. Labelling someone ADHD is just enabling them to not be responsible. "It's not my fault, I have ADHD". Show me someone who is diagnosed ADHD and I will show you:

Someone who is bored, and/or
Someone seeking attention, and/or
Someone who was never taught discipline.

It seems to me that Addictive Personality Disorder may bring people to the symptoms listed by Freethinker. In fact, those symptoms fit for clinical depression. This is what happens when you can't diagnose "disorders" through empirical means. You throw out a net and catch many things.

Let's look at boredom. Who doesn't have a problem focusing on boring things? this is where discipline plays a part. It isn't a focusing problem, you can focus on your game for 20 hours right? It's a discipline issue. You don't want or try to focus on boring things. Plain and simple. You are living out of the emotional part of the brain versus the logical. I would bet that 95% of the people that "can't" focus on something boring, all of the sudden, could focus if there was a million dollar prize for passing a test on the boring issue. It is a matter of wanting to focus. Discipline.

The "Hyperactive" part in kids (and some adults) is what I call "Look at me! Syndrome". People act out obnoxiously to gain attention when they are lacking that in some part of their lives.

Discipline. This is really different than 50 years ago. People have many more distractions today than 50 years ago. Our society is overstimulated and getting lazier by the day. Parents think that televisions are babysitters. They are less involved with their kids and it shows. It seems to me that I don't hear reports of the military giving medical discharges for ADHD sufferers. I wonder why that is?

As far as dopamine and norepinephren levels go, it is hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect. Do the levels cause the behavior, or does the behavior cause the levels? They can't say either way for sure.

The drugs just treat the symptom. They don't cure anything. That is why you have to take them for life. That in itself causes a whole lot of problems in the long term.

What ever happened to people being responsible for their own behavior?

 

[nes]

Breaking news, the ADHD diagnosis increases can't be attributed to genetic mutations. It may be the environment in which people with ADHD grow up in, wait a minute... the parents that think a pill will solve bad manners... Face it, you go to different regions of the world such as Africa, and very few kids would be diagnosed with ADHD.

I leave you with this video for my conclusion.

YouTube - South Park's ADHD Cure

 

[1069]

YouTube - South Park's ADHD Cure

I don't have audio.
Is it the one where the guy keeps smacking those three kids, going, "Shut up and study!", "Stop crying and do your homework!", etc?
Hil-fvcking-arious.
I love Southpark, even though Matt and Trey are closet neo-cons.

 

[FreeThinker]

I have to disagree. ADHD didn't exist 50 years ago.

Yes, it did.

The History of ADHD

1902 - Dr. Still, a British doctor, documented cases involving impulsiveness. He called it "Defect of Moral Control." He did believe, however, that this was a medical diagnosis, rather than a spiritual one.

1922 - Symptoms now associated with ADHD were documented and given a diagnosis of "Post-Encephalitic Behavior Disorder."

1937 - Dr. Charles Bradley introduced the use of stimulants to treat hyperactive children.

1956 - Ritalin was first introduced as a treatment for hyperactive children.

1960s - Stimulant medication became more widely used. The main symptom would have been hyperactivity and this is the only symptom that was usually treated. The name "Minimal Brain Dysfunction" was used in the early 1960s and was changed in the late 60s to "Hyperkinetic Disorder of Childhood." 1970s - Additional symptoms such as lack of focus and daydreaming were associated with impulsiveness. Impulsiveness was expanded to include verbal impulsiveness, cognitive impulsiveness and motor impulsiveness.

1980 - The current name "Attention Deficit Disorder +/-" was given in the DSM III by the American Psychiatric Association. ADHD and ADD were separate diagnosis.

1987 - The APA renamed the disorder Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder and noted it was a medical diagnosis that could cause behavioral problems. They noted these behavioral problems to be different than those caused by emotional turmoil, such as divorce or moving to a new area.

1996 - The second medication, Adderall was approved by the FDA for treatment of ADHD.

1998 - The American Medical Associated stated that ADHD was one of the best researched disorders.

1999-present - Several additional medications, such as Concerta, Focalin and Strattera have been approved for the treatment of ADHD.

Try doing some research before making up crap like "ADHD didn't exist 50 years ago". And if you say it didn't exist before that, it did. It just was not treated. Chances are the town drunk or the village idiot was just an unmedicated case.

Labelling someone ADHD is just enabling them to not be responsible. "It's not my fault, I have ADHD".

I didn't start taking adderall until four months ago. I am 23 years old and have never ever used "I have ADHD" as an excuse for doing anything.

Show me someone who is diagnosed ADHD and I will show you:

Someone who is bored, and/or
Someone seeking attention, and/or
Someone who was never taught discipline.

I have sex every few days, rode a 600cc katana for two years, sometimes climb construction sites for fun, and take vacations once every six months or so. I am not bored.

Attention seeking? People try to kill themselves for attention, and I'm not suicidal.

Never taught discipline? My English professor ultra strict father that didn't let us watch television growing up might disagree with you on that.

It seems to me that Addictive Personality Disorder may bring people to the symptoms listed by Freethinker. In fact, those symptoms fit for clinical depression. This is what happens when you can't diagnose "disorders" through empirical means. You throw out a net and catch many things.

That's right. It might not be ADHD. It might be depression: just like I stated.

I said people should go see a trained professional for a diagnosis. This post pointed them in the right direction if they had all the symptoms.

Let's look at boredom. Who doesn't have a problem focusing on boring things? this is where discipline plays a part. It isn't a focusing problem, you can focus on your game for 20 hours right? It's a discipline issue. You don't want or try to focus on boring things. Plain and simple. You are living out of the emotional part of the brain versus the logical. I would bet that 95% of the people that "can't" focus on something boring, all of the sudden, could focus if there was a million dollar prize for passing a test on the boring issue. It is a matter of wanting to focus. Discipline.

The problem is that there is not a million dollar prize at the end of every homework assignment. People with ADHD suffer from a lack of stimulation and so they seek it out in video games and gambling. Focusing on a game for 20 hours is much different than writing a term paper for 20 hours. Video games provide a constant and visible reward in the form of points money. Homework does not.

It is very easy for someone that does not have the problem to sit back and say "just ****ing do it". The problem is people with ADHD can't "just ****ing do it". If they could they wouldn't be failing out of school and living in fantasy video games.

If you don't have the problem, and if you don't know anyone that has the problem, please don't try to talk down to everyone else. You might as well scream "just ****ing breath" to a person having an asthma attack.

The "Hyperactive" part in kids (and some adults) is what I call "Look at me! Syndrome". People act out obnoxiously to gain attention when they are lacking that in some part of their lives.

A child that literally cannot physically sit in one place without twitching for 12 hours is "seeking attention"? Day after day, month after month, year after year. The entire time he or she is just "seeking attention"?

How about infants that can't stop moving? Seeking attention? At 10 months old?

Discipline. This is really different than 50 years ago. People have many more distractions today than 50 years ago. Our society is overstimulated and getting lazier by the day. Parents think that televisions are babysitters. They are less involved with their kids and it shows. It seems to me that I don't hear reports of the military giving medical discharges for ADHD sufferers. I wonder why that is?

Maybe because ADHD starts from childhood and doesn't spontaneously show up? Read up on the subject.

As far as dopamine and norepinephren levels go, it is hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect. Do the levels cause the behavior, or does the behavior cause the levels? They can't say either way for sure.

Then what started the behavior in the first place?

The drugs just treat the symptom. They don't cure anything. That is why you have to take them for life. That in itself causes a whole lot of problems in the long term.

That's right. There is no cure for chronically low levels of dopamine and norepinephrine. ADHD needs to be medicated for life just like other brain disorders.

And I know of quite a few honors students that got into top colleges that would beg to disagree with you about more problems in the long run.

 

[FreeThinker]

I love Southpark, even though Matt and Trey are closet neo-cons.

Libertarians. Get it right.

 

[NYStateofMind]

Yes, it did.

The History of ADHD

1902 - Dr. Still, a British doctor, documented cases involving impulsiveness. He called it "Defect of Moral Control." He did believe, however, that this was a medical diagnosis, rather than a spiritual one.

1922 - Symptoms now associated with ADHD were documented and given a diagnosis of "Post-Encephalitic Behavior Disorder."

1937 - Dr. Charles Bradley introduced the use of stimulants to treat hyperactive children.

1956 - Ritalin was first introduced as a treatment for hyperactive children.

1960s - Stimulant medication became more widely used. The main symptom would have been hyperactivity and this is the only symptom that was usually treated. The name "Minimal Brain Dysfunction" was used in the early 1960s and was changed in the late 60s to "Hyperkinetic Disorder of Childhood." 1970s - Additional symptoms such as lack of focus and daydreaming were associated with impulsiveness. Impulsiveness was expanded to include verbal impulsiveness, cognitive impulsiveness and motor impulsiveness.

1980 - The current name "Attention Deficit Disorder +/-" was given in the DSM III by the American Psychiatric Association. ADHD and ADD were separate diagnosis.

1987 - The APA renamed the disorder Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder and noted it was a medical diagnosis that could cause behavioral problems. They noted these behavioral problems to be different than those caused by emotional turmoil, such as divorce or moving to a new area.

1996 - The second medication, Adderall was approved by the FDA for treatment of ADHD.

1998 - The American Medical Associated stated that ADHD was one of the best researched disorders.

1999-present - Several additional medications, such as Concerta, Focalin and Strattera have been approved for the treatment of ADHD.

Try doing some research before making up crap like "ADHD didn't exist 50 years ago". And if you say it didn't exist before that, it did. It just was not treated. Chances are the town drunk or the village idiot was just an unmedicated case.



I didn't start taking adderall until four months ago. I am 23 years old and have never ever used "I have ADHD" as an excuse for doing anything.



I have sex every few days, rode a 600cc katana for two years, sometimes climb construction sites for fun, and take vacations once every six months or so. I am not bored.

Attention seeking? People try to kill themselves for attention, and I'm not suicidal.

Never taught discipline? My English professor ultra strict father that didn't let us watch television growing up might disagree with you on that.



That's right. It might not be ADHD. It might be depression: just like I stated.

I said people should go see a trained professional for a diagnosis. This post pointed them in the right direction if they had all the symptoms.



The problem is that there is not a million dollar prize at the end of every homework assignment. People with ADHD suffer from a lack of stimulation and so they seek it out in video games and gambling. Focusing on a game for 20 hours is much different than writing a term paper for 20 hours. Video games provide a constant and visible reward in the form of points money. Homework does not.

It is very easy for someone that does not have the problem to sit back and say "just ****ing do it". The problem is people with ADHD can't "just ****ing do it". If they could they wouldn't be failing out of school and living in fantasy video games.

If you don't have the problem, and if you don't know anyone that has the problem, please don't try to talk down to everyone else. You might as well scream "just ****ing breath" to a person having an asthma attack.



A child that literally cannot physically sit in one place without twitching for 12 hours is "seeking attention"? Day after day, month after month, year after year. The entire time he or she is just "seeking attention"?

How about infants that can't stop moving? Seeking attention? At 10 months old?



Maybe because ADHD starts from childhood and doesn't spontaneously show up? Read up on the subject.



Then what started the behavior in the first place?



That's right. There is no cure for chronically low levels of dopamine and norepinephrine. ADHD needs to be medicated for life just like other brain disorders.

And I know of quite a few honors students that got into top colleges that would beg to disagree with you about more problems in the long run.

Thanks for your reply. I started to reply to the same post, but frankly, after dealing with numerous such people over the years, I sometimes find it beyond my patience level to try to educate the ignorant.

It's very easy to dismiss the disorder when you don't either have it, or have a close relationship with someone who does. In my case, I'm raising a child with the disorder, and I can assure the uninformed that it is not only real and diagnosable, but can be devestating if untreated. My extended family has several ADHD people. Some went undiagnosed and/or untreated, and those individuals are the ones who are struggling the most with their lives.

Your observation about video games is right on the money.

 

[1069]

Libertarians. Get it right.

No. Republitarians. Closet neocons. South-park conservatives.
They're socially liberal conservatives.
That "libertarian" crud is just their cover.
They're still funny as sh!t, though.

 

[Rhapsody1447]

They're socially liberal conservatives.

What?

 

[1069]

What?

The creation of the term republitarian is usually attributed to Larry Elder, an American political pundit, radio talk show host, and author who defines "republitarian" as "a member of the Republican Party who holds libertarian ideals." Another example would be Neal Boortz, who describes himself as a neolibertarian.
Presently, republitarians are represented in the Republican party by the Republican Liberty Caucus, joining such codified groups within the GOP such as the Log Cabin Republicans and the College Republicans.

South Park Conservative/ Republican:

"The term is meant to be more of a casual indication of beliefs than a strong partisan label. While South Park co-creator Matt Stone is a registered Republican, co-creator Trey Parker is actually a registered member of the Libertarian Party....
As the show's co-creator, Matt Stone, sums it up: "I hate conservatives, but I really ****ing hate liberals." Such sentiments were reflected in their movie Team America: World Police."

South Park Republican

Really, I'm not the most politically savvy person in the world, but you'd have to be an utter naif to be familiar with South Park and not recognize their conservative/ republican bias.

I refer you to Parker and Stone's infamous "Republicans are d!cks, Liberals are ******s" speech, from Team America, World Police.

 

[Thorgasm]

Yes, it did.


1980 - The current name "Attention Deficit Disorder +/-" was given in the DSM III by the American Psychiatric Association. ADHD and ADD were separate diagnosis.

1987 - The APA renamed the disorder Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder and noted it was a medical diagnosis that could cause behavioral problems. They noted these behavioral problems to be different than those caused by emotional turmoil, such as divorce or moving to a new area.

Try doing some research before making up crap like "ADHD didn't exist 50 years ago". And if you say it didn't exist before that, it did. It just was not treated. Chances are the town drunk or the village idiot was just an unmedicated case.

Try reading your own research before you accuse me of "making up crap". They didn't coin ADD until 1980, ADHD in 1987. Now since you must be meaning that people have always had problems, I agree with you. What exactly those problems were is where we disagree. The DSM is not exactly a precision tool. As I stated in a previous post, you can fit these symptoms into several diagnosis. There is no empirical way to discern, it is a subjective opinion. You should read "The Myth of Mental Illness" by Thomas Stasz. Your town drunk was an addict. That's not the same thing. The village idiot could just be an idiot, not mentally ill.

I didn't start taking adderall until four months ago. I am 23 years old and have never ever used "I have ADHD" as an excuse for doing anything.

Why did you start taking adderall if you have never used "I have ADHD" as a reason for behavior or lack thereof?

I have sex every few days, rode a 600cc katana for two years, sometimes climb construction sites for fun, and take vacations once every six months or so. I am not bored.

Congratulations on having sex every few days.:2razz: Let's be intellectually honest, ADD isn't about finding interesting things to do, it's about focusing on the less interesting things. Let's focus on that.

Attention seeking? People try to kill themselves for attention, and I'm not suicidal.

I guess you are right, since that's the only way people can possibly seek attention.:roll:

Never taught discipline? My English professor ultra strict father that didn't let us watch television growing up might disagree with you on that.

I realize that you want to call out my lack of research earlier and now you offer unverifiable evidence I can't possibly research. I can only speculate that your lack of instant gratification/stimulation early on caused a deep compulsive desire. Self discipline is isn't taught through strictness. Please don't confuse self-discipline and parental discipline.

That's right. It might not be ADHD. It might be depression: just like I stated.

I said people should go see a trained professional for a diagnosis. This post pointed them in the right direction if they had all the symptoms.

I don't have faith in a system that deals purely in hypothetical constructs. It's all subjective. And the answer they have for it is to create government sanctioned drug addicts.

The problem is that there is not a million dollar prize at the end of every homework assignment. People with ADHD suffer from a lack of stimulation and so they seek it out in video games and gambling. Focusing on a game for 20 hours is much different than writing a term paper for 20 hours. Video games provide a constant and visible reward in the form of points money. Homework does not.

Your need for a prize at the end of every homework is indicative of your self-discipline. You can't tell me that you aren't aware of the benefits of doing your homework, so you can pass your test, get good grades, get your diploma, and get a good job/career. You just don't feel like doing it. It isn't a thinking problem per se, it's an emotional one. When you think logically about it, you realize how important it is, and you focus on it. When you are being emotional about it, you minimalize the importance and choose to stop caring. You are choosing instant gratification over overall/longterm gratification. How logical is that? Sounds like every addict I have ever known. The difference between 20 hrs. of video games and 20 hours of term papers is one you enjoy, one you don't. I don't advise writing a term paper for 20 straight hours either. :mrgreen:

It is very easy for someone that does not have the problem to sit back and say "just ****ing do it". The problem is people with ADHD can't "just ****ing do it". If they could they wouldn't be failing out of school and living in fantasy video games.

It sounds to me like you would be better served seeing an addiction specialist. Every thing you describe sounds like addiction to me, including the dopamine and norepinephren levels. I am truly serious. I am not trying to be condescending or win anything here. Psychological addiction can be as big a problem as chemical dependence. I would hate for you to be misdiagnosed and mistreated. It sounds like time is of the essence if you are failing school. You don't have to stop your current treatment, you could talk it over with your psychiatrist or seek a second opinion from an addiction specialist.

If you don't have the problem, and if you don't know anyone that has the problem, please don't try to talk down to everyone else. You might as well scream "just ****ing breath" to a person having an asthma attack.

I am an addict. I know addicts. I have known ADD cases that became amphetamine addicts. I am not trying to talk down to you. I am just trying to break things down as they are. I am also asthmatic so I get your point about breathing. You can't compare asthma to a mental disorder.

A child that literally cannot physically sit in one place without twitching for 12 hours is "seeking attention"? Day after day, month after month, year after year. The entire time he or she is just "seeking attention"?

Isn't this a bit mellodramatic? I am not the one diagnosing anyone with ADD. I never said kids couldn't be kids.

How about infants that can't stop moving? Seeking attention? At 10 months old?

A 10-month old with ADD? That's a good one.:rofl

Maybe because ADHD starts from childhood and doesn't spontaneously show up? Read up on the subject.

Yes, how people are raised does make a difference and how people handle life and themselves.

Then what started the behavior in the first place?

Sounds to me like addiction to overstimulation.

That's right. There is no cure for chronically low levels of dopamine and norepinephrine. ADHD needs to be medicated for life just like other brain disorders.

Here is the thing. Addicts have these same levels. Over time the levels even out if the person is actively treating their addiction. Exercise is also very good for stimulation. Addicts usually trade one addiction for another. You might as well make it something healthy.

And I know of quite a few honors students that got into top colleges that would beg to disagree with you about more problems in the long run.

Are you saying that honors students can't be addicts? It's all about choices. Play video games or do homework. You can get help through support groups for how to make the right decisions. I can't believe that at 23 you are comfortable with taking a pill for the rest of your life to help you make the right decisions. I really believe that there is a better way.

What have the long term studies of adderal shown? What are the long-term side-effects? What will the next "miracle drug" be?

 

[Thorgasm]

Thanks for your reply. I started to reply to the same post, but frankly, after dealing with numerous such people over the years, I sometimes find it beyond my patience level to try to educate the ignorant.

Quite the contrary, I am not ignorant of this subject.

It's very easy to dismiss the disorder when you don't either have it, or have a close relationship with someone who does. In my case, I'm raising a child with the disorder, and I can assure the uninformed that it is not only real and diagnosable, but can be devestating if untreated. My extended family has several ADHD people. Some went undiagnosed and/or untreated, and those individuals are the ones who are struggling the most with their lives.

I am sure I could get on adderal if I wanted to. My mother and younger sister have taken it. My mother was misdiagnosed and actually had a brain tumor(which can be dignosed through empirical means). My sister is an addict and never got enough attention from her father. Now, can you guage how easy it is for me to dismiss? If you examine the methodology of psychology with a critical eye you can see the vast room for error and misdiagnosis. You should always opt for drug free treatment before making a life long commitment to the drug companies. Addicts also struggle all of their lives.

 

[NYStateofMind]

Quite the contrary, I am not ignorant of this subject.

You certainly appear ignorant of the disorder when you make statements such as this:

You just don't feel like doing it. It isn't a thinking problem per se, it's an emotional one. When you think logically about it, you realize how important it is, and you focus on it. When you are being emotional about it, you minimalize the importance and choose to stop caring. You are choosing instant gratification over overall/longterm gratification.

Have you actually done any research of the disorder? If you had, you would realize that this thinking is typical of someone who has absolutely no understanding of the disorder. What books have you read on the subject? Have you ever read anything by Russel A. Barkley, Edward M. Hallowell, John J. Ratey? Or anyone else who is considered knowledgeable in the field?

I am sure I could get on adderal if I wanted to.

And this is relevent to .........?

My mother and younger sister have taken it. My mother was misdiagnosed and actually had a brain tumor(which can be dignosed through empirical means). My sister is an addict and never got enough attention from her father. Now, can you guage how easy it is for me to dismiss?

So because your mother was misdiagnosed, and you believe that your sister was misdiagnosed, nobody can actually have the disorder? That's some logic.

If you examine the methodology of psychology with a critical eye you can see the vast room for error and misdiagnosis.

There is always a risk of misdiagnosis, that doesn't mean the disorder doesn't exist. Obviously, there are individuals who are misdiagnosed, as with any disorder. Again, that does not mean that every case is misdiagnosed.

You should always opt for drug free treatment before making a life long commitment to the drug companies. Addicts also struggle all of their lives.

Why would you assume that I haven't tried drug free treatment ? When I said treatment, why do you assume that I only meant medication? Just because you are an addict, don't presume you are the only one who knows anything about addiction. Do you honestly believe that an addict can't also have ADHD?

 

[Thorgasm]

You certainly appear ignorant of the disorder when you make statements such as this: Have you actually done any research of the disorder? If you had, you would realize that this thinking is typical of someone who has absolutely no understanding of the disorder. What books have you read on the subject? Have you ever read anything by Russel A. Barkley, Edward M. Hallowell, John J. Ratey? Or anyone else who is considered knowledgeable in the field?

Yes, I have studied this disorder extensively. That is why I have the opinion that I do. I have also had my opinion supported by psychiatrists that I have spoken with. I have plenty of personal experience with people who have been diagnosed with ADD. ADD is a hypothetical construct, not a physical disease.

And this is relevent to .........? So because your mother was misdiagnosed, and you believe that your sister was misdiagnosed, nobody can actually have the disorder? That's some logic.There is always a risk of misdiagnosis, that doesn't mean the disorder doesn't exist. Obviously, there are individuals who are misdiagnosed, as with any disorder. Again, that does not mean that every case is misdiagnosed.

First you question my personal experience with ADD, and then when I share with you my experience, you tell me that it isn't relevant? Let's be intellectually honest here! I never said that is proof of the nonexistence of the disorder. There is no way to prove that a diagnosis is correct through empirical means. It's all subjective. It is not a hard science.

Why would you assume that I haven't tried drug free treatment ? When I said treatment, why do you assume that I only meant medication? Just because you are an addict, don't presume you are the only one who knows anything about addiction. Do you honestly believe that an addict can't also have ADHD?

I really don't believe in ADHD. I have never met a person who was ADD who wasn't an addict of some sort.

 

[NYStateofMind]

Yes, I have studied this disorder extensively. That is why I have the opinion that I do. I have also had my opinion supported by psychiatrists that I have spoken with. I have plenty of personal experience with people who have been diagnosed with ADD. ADD is a hypothetical construct, not a physical disease.

So the answer is that you have studied it extensively by talking to a few psychiatrists, and having personal experience with people who have been diagnosed wtih ADD. I don't see any hard research there, just personal experience. I guess you believe that the experts who have studied the disorder and written extensively on the subject have nothing to add.

I have years of direct experience with the disorder, with my own child and various relatives, and have talked to many doctors, including psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists and other doctors who deal with the disorder regularly. I've also seen quacks who claim to be able to use machines to diagnose and titrate meds and doctors who have no clue what ADHD is, and are willing to throw meds at anybody who suggests that they may have the disorder. I've also had people suggest things such as valerian root, or "just tell her to DO IT!" as a treatment. In the end, I've spent a great deal of time researching (not just talking to individual doctors who don't necessarily have any expertise to share) and that is the piece you are missing. Try reading a few books by the authors I mentioned, they are a few of the best known experts in the field. An excellent place to start is with the book, Driven to Distraction by Hallowell and Ratey. Do some homework, then we can discuss it.

First you question my personal experience with ADD, and then when I share with you my experience, you tell me that it isn't relevant? Let's be intellectually honest here! I never said that is proof of the nonexistence of the disorder. There is no way to prove that a diagnosis is correct through empirical means. It's all subjective. It is not a hard science.

I did not question your personal experience, I question your understanding of the disorder. As far as it being "subjective," so is any other psychiatric diagnosis. That does not mean that it doesn't exist, just because you can't take blood or an x-ray to "prove" your diagnosis. It's just as real as depression, bi-polar disorder or OCD. Maybe you don't believe they exist either. BTW, it does show up in an empirical test, a PET scan. Doctors don't routinely use PET scans though, for a number of reasons.

I really don't believe in ADHD. I have never met a person who was ADD who wasn't an addict of some sort.

Ah, here's the crux of the problem. You have already made up your mind that it doesn't exist, so you are unwilling to look at anything that may challenge your opinion. This is why I rarely waste my time talking to ignorant people about this subject. It is a waste of my time, and I have a child to raise. My time is better spent helping her. Good luck to your mother and sister.

 

[tryreading]

When you take Adderall you have to stop for a few days at a time and let your body catch up. DON'T TAKE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY. The prescription from your doctor will tell you to take one every morning, but that is bullshit. If I took this every day I wouldn't be sleeping or eating. You MUST stop for at least two days a week (stop longer in between school semesters) to let your body get rest and nourishment.

If you take too much Adderall over long periods of time it is going to **** up your brain's ability to use/produce dopamine, which leads to depression. You MUST take breaks or you're going to end up in rehab.

A lot of the advice you give here is reasonable, but telling people to self-dose like this is wrong. Anybody who is given a prescription by their doctor needs to take the drug like the doctor says. You are not a doctor.

The best advice you can give somebody about this illness (or any other one) is to see a doctor if they have symptoms of it.

As far as dopamine and norepinephren levels go, it is hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect. Do the levels cause the behavior, or does the behavior cause the levels? They can't say either way for sure.

What ever happened to people being responsible for their own behavior?

You're not a doctor either, right?

Your anecdotal story about your relatives doesn't prove anything. I'll believe the double blind studies before accepting your opinion on the efficacy or safety of a drug.

You've read a little about the issue and have decided ADHD isn't real? It amazes me that there are people without the benefit of any medical training who have decided that there is no ADHD. Can you cure depression too?

 

[Morrow]

ADHD is a quantifiable mental disorder, it has been demonstrated that some people have anomalous brain patterns when performing certain controlled tasks. This anomaly is called ADHD.

ADHD is not diagnosed via the quantifiable method because of the difficulty and expense, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) has created a much disputed criteria for ADHD diagnosis.

ADHD is often misdiagnosed, particularly among children. This is because there are not enough child psychologists, and clinical psychologist mistake normal child behavior for ADHD.

ADHD doesn’t mean you are addicted to video games. Not everyone addicted to video games has ADHD.

Addiction is not a criteria for diagnosis of ADHD, and there is mention of it in the APA’s DSM IV, Manual of Mental Disorders.

FreeThinkers list of ‘characteristics’ of a hard core gamer is anecdotal. It is not a list of ADHD characteristics. That isn’t to say it is wrong, although I would certainly take issue with some of this criteria, but that is does not involve research or study.

Free Thinker has indicated that once he started taking medication for ADHD, he was no longer addicted to video games. This does not mean his addition was caused by ADHD, or that his new found attention ‘cured’ his addiction. There is no evidence of that, correlation implies causation is a logical fallacy, not a logical proof.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I really don't believe in ADHD. I have never met a person who was ADD who wasn't an addict of some sort.

It's late and I don't have time to address a lot of what has been written here, but this statement stood out. As one who has diagnosed many with ADD using empirical and tested methods, I can tell you that equating all who are diagnosed with ADD as addicts is totally false and ridiculous.