• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

danarhea

Slayer of the DP Newsbot
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
43,603
Reaction score
26,254
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
JERUSALEM – Pro-Palestinian activists sent another boat to challenge Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip on Tuesday and Egypt declared it was temporarily opening a crossing into the Palestinian territory after a raid on an aid flotilla that ended with Israeli soldiers killing nine activists.
And, as before, Israel has the right to board that ship in international waters.

1) The ship will attempt to run Israel's blockade, which gives Israel the right to intercept it.

2) Israel also has the right to inspect the cargo of the ship, in order to insure that no weapons are among the other items.

3) In addition, Egypt is opening up it's border with Palestine, in order for aid to cross over. Egypt is now pretty trustworthy, and would inspect shipments crossing over. This means that, with aid already going into Gaza from Egypt, there is no need for another ship to carry supplies directly to Gaza, unless.....................

Fill in what comes after "unless". It's a no-brainer.

Article is here.
 
Last edited:

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
It's like a battle to see who can out-retard the other.

"Hey, these guys are trying to bring stuff into our country that we don't want, so let's board their ships in international water rather than wait two hours until they're in our water. That way we can gain absolutely no tactical advantage while needlessly outraging people who cry about international law."

"Hey, we just got a whole bunch of positive publicity and world sympathy after these poor unarmed people were attacked by Israeli soldiers. We should follow up on that by sending military troops along so as to provoke the **** out of Israel and to make us look like the aggressor."
 

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
"Hey, we just got a whole bunch of positive publicity and world sympathy after these poor unarmed people were attacked by Israeli soldiers. We should follow up on that by sending military troops along so as to provoke the **** out of Israel and to make us look like the aggressor."
If that's their tactic (and it looks like it is) it is extremely effective, have you seen the outrage caused by the boarding?
 

Zyphlin

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
51,312
Reaction score
35,172
Location
NoMoAuchie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
If that's their tactic (and it looks like it is) it is extremely effective, have you seen the outrage caused by the boarding?
Actually it won't be.

What he's saying is that the initial thing, if it was their tactic, was extremely effective. What won't be effective is then trying to do it AGAIN, after you've seen what happened, but this time sending military with it specifically to appear to be trying to instigate something.

Its kind of like getting pulled over for going 1 MPH over the speed limit. You may get some sympathy from friends and family for what seems to have been a really stupid thing to get pulled over for and horribly disproportionate since you're going to end up paying more in court fee's then in the fee's for the actual speeding.

However if you then the next day drive by the same place knowing the cop is going to be there, going 1 MPH over again but this time with your middle finger up against your window flicking off the cop you're likely not going to have those same people showing you sympathy. Instead they're probably think you're a stupid douchebag, and probably regret showing you any sympathy in the first place.

This is absolutely retarded on the part of the Turkish activists. This is deciding to go punch the full bee hive after you got stung walking under it earlier. There's no benefit to this and just reeks of a publicity stunt and stubborn childish stupidity.
 

Deuce

Outer space potato man
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
74,238
Reaction score
32,372
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Actually it won't be.

What he's saying is that the initial thing, if it was their tactic, was extremely effective. What won't be effective is then trying to do it AGAIN, after you've seen what happened, but this time sending military with it specifically to appear to be trying to instigate something.

Its kind of like getting pulled over for going 1 MPH over the speed limit. You may get some sympathy from friends and family for what seems to have been a really stupid thing to get pulled over for and horribly disproportionate since you're going to end up paying more in court fee's then in the fee's for the actual speeding.

However if you then the next day drive by the same place knowing the cop is going to be there, going 1 MPH over again but this time with your middle finger up against your window flicking off the cop you're likely not going to have those same people showing you sympathy. Instead they're probably think you're a stupid douchebag, and probably regret showing you any sympathy in the first place.

This is absolutely retarded on the part of the Turkish activists. This is deciding to go punch the full bee hive after you got stung walking under it earlier. There's no benefit to this and just reeks of a publicity stunt and stubborn childish stupidity.
This is a great analogy. And totally correct. Second time around Israel could just blow the boat out of the water and the world would probably shrug and say "Well, what the hell did you expect?"
 

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Actually it won't be.

What he's saying is that the initial thing, if it was their tactic, was extremely effective. What won't be effective is then trying to do it AGAIN, after you've seen what happened, but this time sending military with it specifically to appear to be trying to instigate something.

Its kind of like getting pulled over for going 1 MPH over the speed limit. You may get some sympathy from friends and family for what seems to have been a really stupid thing to get pulled over for and horribly disproportionate since you're going to end up paying more in court fee's then in the fee's for the actual speeding.

However if you then the next day drive by the same place knowing the cop is going to be there, going 1 MPH over again but this time with your middle finger up against your window flicking off the cop you're likely not going to have those same people showing you sympathy. Instead they're probably think you're a stupid douchebag, and probably regret showing you any sympathy in the first place.

This is absolutely retarded on the part of the Turkish activists. This is deciding to go punch the full bee hive after you got stung walking under it earlier. There's no benefit to this and just reeks of a publicity stunt and stubborn childish stupidity.
I'm not sure about that. Gaza is still besieged, and most people outside Israel (and possibly the USA) find it scandalous.

To take your analogy, it's as if the speed limit on the freeway was 5mph. Someone who would drive at 10mph will always get the sympathy from friends and family since these people will always consider that the speed limit is excessively low.

Likewise, any action that is against the blockade will get sympathy from many people, even if they turn messy, since most people consider that the blockade is a scandal.
 
Last edited:

Crunch

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
4,063
Reaction score
890
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
This is a great analogy. And totally correct. Second time around Israel could just blow the boat out of the water and the world would probably shrug and say "Well, what the hell did you expect?"
It's a real posibility that is exactly what they will do.

Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."
'Next time we'll use more force'
 

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
This is a great analogy. And totally correct. Second time around Israel could just blow the boat out of the water and the world would probably shrug and say "Well, what the hell did you expect?"
Actually that would be the best way to start one more intifadah IMO
 

Zyphlin

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
51,312
Reaction score
35,172
Location
NoMoAuchie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I'm not sure about that. Gaza is still besieged, and most people outside Israel (and possibly the USA) find it scandalous.

To take your analogy, it's as if the speed limit on the freeway was 5mph. Someone who would drive at 10mph will always get the sympathy from friends and family since these people will always consider that the speed limit is excessively low.

Likewise, any action that is against the blockade will get sympathy from many people, even if they turn messy, since most people consider that the blockade is a scandal.
However if that person went by after getting ticketed and decided that he wasn't just going to speed, but was going to flick off the officer and yell "**** YOU" out the window, I wouldn't care that I thought the 5 MPH was stupid. The guy is acting like a douche and an ass, doing something he knows is illegal and will get him in trouble (because it did just before) and on top of that is doing extra action specifically to seemingly provoke a confrontation.

That's like the epitome of douche, and deserves zero sympathy.

Going back right after this, announcing it to the world, and sending warships along with it is the equivilent of flicking off the officer while telling him to go **** himself.
 

j-mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
38,279
Reaction score
11,306
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I'm not sure about that. Gaza is still besieged, and most people outside Israel (and possibly the USA) find it scandalous.

To take your analogy, it's as if the speed limit on the freeway was 5mph. Someone who would drive at 10mph will always get the sympathy from friends and family since these people will always consider that the speed limit is excessively low.

Likewise, any action that is against the blockade will get sympathy from many people, even if they turn messy, since most people consider that the blockade is a scandal.

I love this. Why do liberals find it necessary to speak in terms of "most people"?

Now bub, back that up please.


j-mac
 

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Going back right after this, announcing it to the world, and sending warships along with it is the equivilent of flicking off the officer while telling him to go **** himself.
Well if they really send warships (I doubt they'll do it) that may be a way to force Israel to renounce to the blockade: Israel will have to weigh the consequences of letting the convoy bypass the blockade (= maybe some weapons could be smuggled but they are already being smuggled through tunnels anyways, and look defeated by international pressure) and the consequences of stopping the convoy (= possible escalation of the tensions with Turkey).

A solution could be to get the ships checked by Turkish authorities (to make sure they don't carry weapons) before allowing them to land on the shores of Gaza.

Another solution could be to lift the blockade and let everything enter Gaza. Weapons would enter more easily but people in Gaza would not have reasons to use them anymore.
 
Last edited:

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
If that's their tactic (and it looks like it is) it is extremely effective, have you seen the outrage caused by the boarding?
Yes, and the outrage would be considerably lessened if it happened with a ship that tried it again, this time declaring its intent to bring foreign military escorts up to Israel's border. You just don't get to do that, no matter how pissy you are over what Israel did the first time around.
 

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
I love this. Why do liberals find it necessary to speak in terms of "most people"?
Why do conservatives find it necessary to use the label "liberal" to all those who have a different opinion?

Now bub, back that up please.


j-mac
The EU is asking for an end of the blockade. That's 500 million people.

The UN also condemns Israel for the blockade. That's 6 billion people, but the USA and Israel disagree with that, so it's rather 5,6 billion people
 

Zyphlin

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
51,312
Reaction score
35,172
Location
NoMoAuchie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Or another solution, take Israel up on the offer to dock, let them expect the cargo for weapons and other illegal items, and if they're not there let the items into Gaza.

Oh, but that wouldn't force an incident and cause problems and would actually just do nothing but HELP GAZA so naturally they can't do that.

Its bull**** bub, and frankly its sick, because when it comes down to it you and people like your are the ones with blood on your hands for these peoples deaths as much as the Israeli's becasue you put the politics of your dislike and distaste for Israel ahead of the lives of the people who will undoutably face trouble on these ships that are actively agigtating a military force and the people of Gaza who obviously are secondary in importance to making Israel look bad.

Its disgusting.
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Well if they really send warships (I doubt they'll do it) that may be a way to force Israel to renounce to the blockade: Israel will have to weigh the consequences of letting the convoy bypass the blockade (= maybe some weapons could be smuggled but anyways they are already being smuggled through tunnels anyways, and look defeated by international pressure) and the consequences of stopping the convoy (= possible escalation of the tensions with Turkey).

A solution could be to get the ships checked by Turkish authorities (to make sure they don't carry weapons) before allowing them to land on the shores of Gaza.
Or they could just wait until the ship comes within Israel's territorial water and then do the exact same thing. If Turkey wanted to intervene, they would be attacking Israel on Israel's territory.

Another solution could be to lift the blockade and let everything enter Gaza. Weapons would enter more easily but people in Gaza would not have reasons to use them anymore.
Do you honestly believe this? Really?

The blockade started in 2007, right? Using your logic, it stands to reason that before 2007, the region of Gaza was perfectly peaceful and created no security concerns for Israel. I'm not a middle east scholar, but that doesn't sound right.
 

Zyphlin

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
51,312
Reaction score
35,172
Location
NoMoAuchie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Ugg, the annoying thing through all of this Right is that I actually agree with your first example as much as I agree with the second, we just don't have any people mindlessly spitting Israeli propoganda in here yet so all the bull**** needing to be called out is one sided.

Your illustrated one of the main reasons that I have zero sympathy for Israel thus far in this as well. There was no logistic reason in any way shape or form for them to have acted prior to the blockaid being breached.
 

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Or another solution, take Israel up on the offer to dock, let them expect the cargo for weapons and other illegal items, and if they're not there let the items into Gaza.

Oh, but that wouldn't force an incident and cause problems and would actually just do nothing but HELP GAZA so naturally they can't do that.
Oh, but that's what I said there

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...za-flotilla-says-hamas-18.html#post1058781680




you put the politics of your dislike and distaste for Israel ahead of the lives of the people who will undoutably face trouble on these ships that are actively agigtating a military force and the people of Gaza who obviously are secondary in importance to making Israel look bad.

Its disgusting.
That's not true, I don't distaste Israel, I just strongly oppose the blockade, because I find it causes much more negative consequences (misery and radicalization of Palestinians) than positive consequences (supposed security for Israel, but that is not true since the blockade is one of the reasons why there is no peace)

Making Israel look bad by creating an incident is not a goal in itself, it's a way to bring international pressure so that they are forced to change their policies towards Palestinians.
 
Last edited:

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Do you honestly believe this? Really?
Of course


The blockade started in 2007, right? Using your logic, it stands to reason that before 2007, the region of Gaza was perfectly peaceful and created no security concerns for Israel. I'm not a middle east scholar, but that doesn't sound right.
The problem is more complex than just the blockade. To reach peace, a Palestinian state has to be created. And it can't be created as long as Palestinians are being blockaded.
 

Crunch

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
4,063
Reaction score
890
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Well if they really send warships (I doubt they'll do it) that may be a way to force Israel to renounce to the blockade: Israel will have to weigh the consequences of letting the convoy bypass the blockade (= maybe some weapons could be smuggled but they are already being smuggled through tunnels anyways, and look defeated by international pressure) and the consequences of stopping the convoy (= possible escalation of the tensions with Turkey).

A solution could be to get the ships checked by Turkish authorities (to make sure they don't carry weapons) before allowing them to land on the shores of Gaza.

Another solution could be to lift the blockade and let everything enter Gaza. Weapons would enter more easily but people in Gaza would not have reasons to use them anymore.
Good idea..... maybe we can use that here in the USA. and have the Columbian Cartels check for drugs before we let people over our borders.

We could save a bunch of bucks that way. :roll:
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
19,674
Reaction score
6,198
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
It's like a battle to see who can out-retard the other.

"Hey, these guys are trying to bring stuff into our country that we don't want, so let's board their ships in international water rather than wait two hours until they're in our water. That way we can gain absolutely no tactical advantage while needlessly outraging people who cry about international law."

"Hey, we just got a whole bunch of positive publicity and world sympathy after these poor unarmed people were attacked by Israeli soldiers. We should follow up on that by sending military troops along so as to provoke the **** out of Israel and to make us look like the aggressor."
There is a reasoning though.
Waiting for those 5 ships to enter the territorial waters would have highly increased the risk and pretty much ensure that at least one of those ships will reach the Gazan port.
There was also the risk of Hamas sending its boats into the interception area and causing problems.

In this case however we have two ships if I'm not wrong, and so they can be boarded on the territorial waters.
 

Zyphlin

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
51,312
Reaction score
35,172
Location
NoMoAuchie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative

j-mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
38,279
Reaction score
11,306
Location
South Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Why do conservatives find it necessary to use the label "liberal" to all those who have a different opinion?
So you are not a liberal? What are you then?


The EU is asking for an end of the blockade. That's 500 million people.

The UN also condemns Israel for the blockade. That's 6 billion people, but the USA and Israel disagree with that, so it's rather 5,6 billion people

Hmmmm....The entire EU? All the people? How could you possibly know that? have you polled each and every person in the EU?


j-mac
 

Crunch

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
4,063
Reaction score
890
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Ugg, the annoying thing through all of this Right is that I actually agree with your first example as much as I agree with the second, we just don't have any people mindlessly spitting Israeli propoganda in here yet so all the bull**** needing to be called out is one sided.

Your illustrated one of the main reasons that I have zero sympathy for Israel thus far in this as well. There was no logistic reason in any way shape or form for them to have acted prior to the blockaid being breached.
Then I'll give you one...... Israel wanted to do the boarding at night, if they had waited until the ships got within 12 miles of the coast, they would have had to board during day light hours..... usually a bad move for a modern military.
 

Zyphlin

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
51,312
Reaction score
35,172
Location
NoMoAuchie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
And yet the potential danger and risk to the state of Israel seems likely far less if they attempted to do it during the day, but within their unquestionably legal zone rather than doing it outside but at night.

I'm sorry, but what you're suggesting is its okay for a Cop to go forward and beat down and arrest a person that says "I think I'm going to trespass on that property over there" while he's 100 feet away from said property because he's bent over tieing his shoe and thus its more likely the officer is going to be successful in stopping him while he's distracted.

The legality of what Israel did is questionable at best to anyone looking at this without bias in their mind, while its legality would be unquestionable by any save for the most zealotous Israeli detractors if it happened within their legal border. What you're suggesting is that its fine to potentially break the law in stopping someone who MIGHT (lets even say probably will) break the law but has not done it yet simply because its advantageous to you to do so.
 
Top Bottom