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Abramoff Guilty - Up to 20 congressmen will be indicted

danarhea

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Jack Abramoff has pleaded guilty to 3 felony counts, and is going to cooperate against those he bribed for political favors. It will be raining indictments this year. Buh bye Tom Delay, and buh bye to many others. This case has effective broken the GOP fund raising machine.

Article is here.
 

scottyz

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Is it too late for Bush to fire another prosecutor?
 

steen

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It will be interesting when the names are clear, such as "representative 1" or "Staffer B"
 

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And dats why you never trust a politican or the system. It seems to be human nature, give somebody a little power and they will turn around and run with it. Should be interesting to see how this turns out, but I like to see evidence beyond a reasonable doubt if a Congressman is guilty of bribes. But, I am sure it happens all the time, this type of corruption.
 

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danarhea said:
Jack Abramoff has pleaded guilty to 3 felony counts, and is going to cooperate against those he bribed for political favors. It will be raining indictments this year.
Yes this guy is a real sleaze, but in reading the indictment his sleaziness is in how he rips off clients with claims of influence he didn't have or playing one against the other. Where are the bribes, offering money to someone in order to get them to do something they would not otherwise do? Most of it reads like everyday Washington. That's what lobbyist do, they represent people who want to support politicians who agree with them and will get legislation passed that they want passed. Who did he bribe to do what that they would not have done anyway?


Buh bye Tom Delay, and buh bye to many others.
Why?

This case has effective broken the GOP fund raising machine.
Why? It wasn't just Rep's, although listening to MSNBC you would think so.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060103/ap_on_go_ot/lobbyist_fraud
Perhaps this is like the Delay/Earle thing, better wait till the facts come out.

Let me ask you this, whom do you think people give campaign contributions to, politicians who support what they support or oppose what the support? Why is it surprising that if a group of people have a common interest, say some Indians, and they want to get thier congressmen to get some legislations passed and relected to protect their mutual interest that they give him campaign contributions and they hire someone in Washington with claimed connects to get their views aired.

Don't we have a right to petition or leaders, the ask they do what we want them to do? To support the ones that do?

Where is the line and how did Abramhoff cross it and with whom?

And I'm not talking about how sleazy he was with his clients and how it looks like he committed fraud with them. Specifically these claims that someone in government took a bribe.
 

Stinger

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TimmyBoy said:
And dats why you never trust a politican or the system. It seems to be human nature, give somebody a little power and they will turn around and run with it. Should be interesting to see how this turns out, but I like to see evidence beyond a reasonable doubt if a Congressman is guilty of bribes. But, I am sure it happens all the time, this type of corruption.

If you want a road paved in your neighborhood. If you and your neighbors go to your local councilman and request he get in in the budget and he agrees and he does and you then all contribute to his campaign for relection because he gets things done for you, have you bribed him?

So far I've heard how this guy rips off his clients but where are the bribes?

Lobbyist give money to politicians everyday on behalf of clients and their issues. DUH that's how Washington works. Trips, junkets, campaign cash that's all SOP. As Howard Fineman just stated on Hardball, the indictment only mentions one Congressman and indirectly at that. Where is the Quid Pro Quo?
 

Deegan

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danarhea said:
Here, folks, is what you have been waiting for:

A copy of the plea deal from the DC District Court. You can link to this page to debunk any and all arguments the Bushneviks will be attempting to spin on this.
Just remember who put those Justice officials, that are doing such a fine job, in their respective positions. I hope all are caught in this net, but somehow, I just don't see that happening, it's just too hard to prove. We had actual video of the bribes taking place when this was a Democratic problem, Republicans seem to be a tad more careful in their corruption.;)
 

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Stinger said:
If you want a road paved in your neighborhood. If you and your neighbors go to your local councilman and request he get in in the budget and he agrees and he does and you then all contribute to his campaign for relection because he gets things done for you, have you bribed him?

So far I've heard how this guy rips off his clients but where are the bribes?

Lobbyist give money to politicians everyday on behalf of clients and their issues. DUH that's how Washington works. Trips, junkets, campaign cash that's all SOP. As Howard Fineman just stated on Hardball, the indictment only mentions one Congressman and indirectly at that. Where is the Quid Pro Quo?
I guess what you are saying is that if I need something done, go to my local politican and pay him some money and he will get things done for me. Nothing wrong with this according to you. It's a "Quid Pro Quo" arrangement.
 

Stinger

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TimmyBoy said:
I guess what you are saying is that if I need something done, go to my local politican and pay him some money and he will get things done for me. Nothing wrong with this according to you. It's a "Quid Pro Quo" arrangement.
Pay him directly, into his own pocket? That is not the accusations that I am reading and not what I postulated. What I said was if you then contributed to his re-election campaign or went out and collected money from other people on his campaing behalf.

What are you saying, if you go to a polititian and ask him to do something legislatively and he does then you should contribute to his opponent?

What if I didn't want that polluting factory built in my town and I contributed to a congressman who said he would vote against it? Quid Pro Quo?
 

Stinger

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Deegan said:
Republicans seem to be a tad more careful in their corruption.;)
s

The fraud is pretty clear, this guy was ripping off his clients and committing some felonies in the process. But where is the corruption?
 

danarhea

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Stinger said:
s

The fraud is pretty clear, this guy was ripping off his clients and committing some felonies in the process. But where is the corruption?
1) Points 22 and 23 on page 9 of the indicment, which is posted as my second link in this thread, and which Abramoff has pled guilty to, refer to Ney of Ohio. He is the one who read statements into the Congressional Record to help influence the sale of the Sun Cruise Casino business to Abramoff.

2) A paper trail has been found that specifically shows Delay using his influence to benefit a group of Abramoff's Russian oil and gas clients. Another paper trail shows Delay using his influence to benefit Abramoff's Choctaw Indian clients. Yet another paper trail shows Delay using his influence to benefit Ambramoff's Marianas Island clients. Also, Tom Delay, in a fundraising letter on behalf of Abramoff's US Family Network, referred to that group as ""a powerful nationwide organization dedicated to restoring our government to citizen control" by mobilizing grass-roots citizen support", when in fact, the US Family Network had nothing to do with grass-roots citizen support, but was one of the slush funds which Abramoff ran. Link is here.

3) This article describes how as many as 20 Congressmen, the vast majority Republican, but a few Democrats too, along with staffers, and possibly even a few White House officials, are going to be indicted for accepting Abramoff's bribes, and assisting Abramoff in bribing others. And dont forget that White House staffer David Safavian was indicted last year for obstruction of justice, stemming from his attempt to shut the Abramoff investigation down.

You dont think all this counts as corruption? If you really believe what you are shoveling, and are not a freeper or other mouthpiece, then you are truly living in a cave, and only hear what you wish to hear. I am sure that once all the scumbags are shaken out of the tree, you will.................... still be making statements about how this was a political witch hunt, and will still be supporting their criminal activity to your dying day.
 
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aps

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steen said:
It will be interesting when the names are clear, such as "representative 1" or "Staffer B"
steen, according to the Washington Post:

Representative 1 = Robert Ney (R Ohio).
Staffer A = Tony Rudy, former deputy chief of staff to DeLay.
Staffer B = Neil Volz, former chief of staff to Ney.

Ney and DeLay: both house republicans and their names rhyme. ;)
 

cnredd

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The problem I see is that while Abramoff dealt with congresspersons that are corrupt, each corrupt congressperson only dealt with one Abramoff...

That's right up there with 20 people people buying drugs off of one drug dealer...The dealer gets sent up the river, but the 20 buyers will get a slap on the wrist...

While anyone pulling off these schemes with the guy should be convicted if the evidence is clear(which I'm sure some here have already come to that conclusion depending on which person they hate the most this week), I don't think the penalties on any of this will lead to a line of congressmembers to be led away in handcuffs like the execs at Worldcom or Enron.

I suspect we'd see a whole bunch of "guilty...60 days...suspended sentence...2 years probation...small fine...have a nice day"...:shrug:

Of course, there are those who will equate these people to Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer...whatever...
 

aps

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cnredd said:
Of course, there are those who will equate these people to Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer...whatever...
Oh please. I have never seen anyone equate sleazy politicians with mass murderers. While I don't think DeLay has any morals, I certainly don't see him as being one who would murder someone and eat part of the dead remains. What a strange thing to say.
 

cnredd

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aps said:
Oh please. I have never seen anyone equate sleazy politicians with mass murderers. While I don't think DeLay has any morals, I certainly don't see him as being one who would murder someone and eat part of the dead remains. What a strange thing to say.
It was also strange to see how someone would report an assassination attempt on Bush's life based simply on the fact the Cheney would take over...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=184175&postcount=6

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=186900&postcount=54

It was also strange to see how someone would attempt to blame the administration and Conservatives in general for the mine accident...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=186777&postcount=7

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=187648&postcount=7

It was also strange to see how someone would publicly claim that Conservative: means kill, means lie, deceive, and screw over America.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=141734&postcount=35


EDIT - Let my add another that one here might find strange...just made less than a half-hour ago on another thread...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=187773&postcount=86
 
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danarhea

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cnredd said:
The problem I see is that while Abramoff dealt with congresspersons that are corrupt, each corrupt congressperson only dealt with one Abramoff...

That's right up there with 20 people people buying drugs off of one drug dealer...The dealer gets sent up the river, but the 20 buyers will get a slap on the wrist...

While anyone pulling off these schemes with the guy should be convicted if the evidence is clear(which I'm sure some here have already come to that conclusion depending on which person they hate the most this week), I don't think the penalties on any of this will lead to a line of congressmembers to be led away in handcuffs like the execs at Worldcom or Enron.

I suspect we'd see a whole bunch of "guilty...60 days...suspended sentence...2 years probation...small fine...have a nice day"...:shrug:

Of course, there are those who will equate these people to Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer...whatever...
I bolded out what I am going to reply to.

You could be right on this. After all, if enough Congressmen are connected to Abramoff, and cast their votes for money, then the system is going to do something to mitigate these felonies. I just heard this morning that we are talking about up to 60 lawmakers, Democrats and Republicans, who took money and favors from Abramoff's clients, or Abramoff himself, which shows that those we elected have betrayed our trust and become nothing more than whores.
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus

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danarhea said:
Jack Abramoff has pleaded guilty to 3 felony counts, and is going to cooperate against those he bribed for political favors. It will be raining indictments this year. Buh bye Tom Delay, and buh bye to many others. This case has effective broken the GOP fund raising machine.

Article is here.
Sorry to rain on your Republican bashing parade but Democrats are not clean on this issue either including minority leader Harry Reid:

Democrats Also Got Tribal Donations
Abramoff Issue's Fallout May Extend Beyond the GOP

By Jeffrey H. Birnbaum and Derek Willis
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, June 3, 2005; Page A01

Lobbyist Jack Abramoff and an associate famously collected $82 million in lobbying and public relations fees from six Indian tribes and devoted a lot of their time to trying to persuade Republican lawmakers to act on their clients' behalf.

But Abramoff didn't work just with Republicans. He oversaw a team of two dozen lobbyists at the law firm Greenberg Traurig that included many Democrats. Moreover, the campaign contributions that Abramoff directed from the tribes went to Democratic as well as Republican legislators.


Bipartisan Spread Many of the top beneficiaries of the campaign contributions that Jack Abramoff and his team of lobbyists directed from Indian tribes were Democratic legislators.


Among the biggest beneficiaries were Capitol Hill's most powerful Democrats, including Thomas A. Daschle (S.D.) and Harry M. Reid (Nev.), the top two Senate Democrats at the time, Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.), then-leader of the House Democrats, and the two lawmakers in charge of raising funds for their Democratic colleagues in both chambers, according to a Washington Post study. Reid succeeded Daschle as Democratic leader after Daschle lost his Senate seat last November.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/02/AR2005060202158.html

Buh bye Reid.
 

cnredd

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danarhea said:
I bolded out what I am going to reply to.

You could be right on this. After all, if enough Congressmen are connected to Abramoff, and cast their votes for money, then the system is going to do something to mitigate these felonies. I just heard this morning that we are talking about up to 60 lawmakers, Democrats and Republicans, who took money and favors from Abramoff's clients, or Abramoff himself, which shows that those we elected have betrayed our trust and become nothing more than whores.
Become?...:confused:

If you hurry, you can catch that turnip truck you just fell off of...

They've been whores for years...Duke Cunningham, ring a bell?...Dan Rostenkowski?...James Trafficant?...

They're all whores...It funny when it turns into such a drama when they get caught..

That just means we place those who DON'T on a higher pedestal...
 

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danarhea said:
You dont think all this counts as corruption? If you really believe what you are shoveling, and are not a freeper or other mouthpiece, then you are truly living in a cave, and only hear what you wish to hear. I am sure that once all the scumbags are shaken out of the tree, you will.................... still be making statements about how this was a political witch hunt, and will still be supporting their criminal activity to your dying day.
Not until I see evidence of the quid pro quo or personal fanancial gain. This is what congresspeople do. They represent the interest of people and groups before the government. If a Democrat represents the interest of Planned Parenthood and then Planned Parenthood contributes to that Democrats campaign is that corruption? If a union ask a congressperson to use thier influence to get favorable legislation passed (like making sure all the government contractors in New Orleans are union and prevailing wage laws are implimented) and they then contribute to that congresspersons campaign is that corruption?
 

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Hey don't leave out Democrat Patrick Kennedy either.

Isn't it hillarious how if a Republican gives back any money Abramoff contributed to thier campaign it's a sure sign they are guilty of bibery but if a Democrat does the same it's a sure sign they are noble human beings?

Hilarious.
 

aps

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Stinger said:
Hey don't leave out Democrat Patrick Kennedy either.

Isn't it hillarious how if a Republican gives back any money Abramoff contributed to thier campaign it's a sure sign they are guilty of bibery but if a Democrat does the same it's a sure sign they are noble human beings?

Hilarious.
The only person's behavior I question is that of Hastert, who waited for Abramoff to plead guilty before he returned his money. I hope he goes down. He is a scumbag too (but his picture isn't next to the word scumbag in the dictionary like DeLay's is ;)).
 

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aps said:
The only person's behavior I question is that of Hastert, who waited for Abramoff to plead guilty before he returned his money. I hope he goes down. He is a scumbag too (but his picture isn't next to the word scumbag in the dictionary like DeLay's is ;)).
What's the difference between Hastert and the Dem's who took campaign money for Abramoff's clients? How about the Dems that haven't returned money?
 

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Quite the expected response from the conservatives here. Can't defend them? Then lets start saying all the bad things the democrats do! Good strategy? I don't think so. Actually its quite redundant partially because I support neither Democrats nor Republicans. Its only to be expected that this is what happens with politicians. Nice try though.

WATCH THIS THREAD CAREFULLY! Soon this thread will cease to become a thread about these republicans and will turn to a thread about democrats. Now all the conservatives are going to start jumping in cause they have an argument to lean on which is the quite predictable one about how Democrats Are Evil! and Republicans Rock!
 

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FinnMacCool said:
Quite the expected response from the conservatives here. Can't defend them?
Defend who? If someone did something illegal off to jail with them. I'm just not being selective.

Then lets start saying all the bad things the democrats do! Good strategy? I don't think so. Actually its quite redundant partially because I support neither Democrats nor Republicans. Its only to be expected that this is what happens with politicians. Nice try though.
Niether do I and that's why I wonder why Rep's are being made the criminals when Dems do the exact same thing.

WATCH THIS THREAD CAREFULLY! Soon this thread will cease to become a thread about these republicans and will turn to a thread about democrats.
How about turning into a thread about EVERYONE and not selectively Rep's?

Now all the conservatives are going to start jumping in cause they have an argument to lean on which is the quite predictable one about how Democrats Are Evil! and Republicans Rock!
I think what is quite predictable is the media highlighting Rep's involved and trying to sweep under the carpet the Democrats who also took money and the leftest here convicting anyone associated as long as the are Rep's but trying to excuse it as "well it was just a FEW Democrats".

Finn I'm an independent an vote Democrat if they have the better candidate.
 
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