About the Indiana law...

it's just me · Mar 28, 2015

"For all the insipid talk among its spokesmen about open-mindedness and tolerance, this strand of what liberal comedian Bill Maher dubs the "gay mafia" is a sworn enemy of both....Under Indiana's religious freedom law, not one Gen Con attendee (gay, transgender, cross-dressing) could be denied a seat at a lunch counter by that mythical boogeyman – the Christian bigot burger-maker with his "gaydar" fully activated. That's not what this law does.

Instead, it protects a private business owner (who might be gay themselves) from being coerced by the power of government to act in a manner incompatible with their deeply held religious convictions. In other words, it protects the Jewish sign maker from being forced by the state to make pro-Nazi placards for the next skinhead convention."

Pete Heck: Gay rights activists to Christians

ludin · Mar 29, 2015

These laws are becoming more common in different states and the extreme gay activist continue to push and push people out of business.
if you don't want my business fine I will go somewhere else.

that is how it should be. there will be plenty of other places. the biggest divide I seeing is that all this clamour that gay marriage is more accepted isn't the case.
the fact is the courts have decided it not the people and there will be people that won't want to do gay marriage and they shouldn't lose their lively hood over it.

I also agree the other way. you shouldn't be able to walk into a gay business owners place and force them to make a pro-hetrosexual cake.
or force them to do any other kind of religious ceremony.

however until people start smacking down extremist it will continue to happen, and you will see the divide get bigger and bigger.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

ludin said:
however until people start smacking down extremist it will continue to happen, and you will see the divide get bigger and bigger.

There are extremist on both sides of this issue, yet you only seem preoccupied with the "extreme gay activist". The simple solution is to amend and clarify public accommodation laws to essential businesses and then let the market place sort the rest out. The current law is little more than an effort to say "Screw you" to gays, not protect religious business owners.

it's just me · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
There are extremist on both sides of this issue, yet you only seem preoccupied with the "extreme gay activist". The simple solution is to amend and clarify public accommodation laws to essential businesses and then let the market place sort the rest out. The current law is little more than an effort to say "Screw you" to gays, not protect religious business owners.

Who are the "extremists" on the other side, the baker who was run out of business?

ludin · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
There are extremist on both sides of this issue, yet you only seem preoccupied with the "extreme gay activist". The simple solution is to amend and clarify public accommodation laws to essential businesses and then let the market place sort the rest out. The current law is little more than an effort to say "Screw you" to gays, not protect religious business owners.

yep because they are the ones destroying peoples lives and I take offense to that. would you not agree?
I agree the market should sort it out for itself but that isn't the way that it works.

do you know that 13 gay bakeries refused to make a religious cake that said something about marriage is between a man and a women?
do you not realize that all 13 of those bakeries discriminated against someone based on their religious views?

that the state more than likely will not pursue those bakeries for discrimination?
there is a double standard being put in place by the law and peoples rights are being trampled on.

that is like the New mexico gay barber that refused to cut the Gov. hair because she is catholic and believes that marriage is between a man and a women.

do you not realize that is religious discrimination? should he have his business shut down or fine so much that it puts him out of business and he losses his home?
I don't.

that is the problem the market isn't deciding anything. it is being decided by lawyers and courts and that is not the way it should be.

if someone doesn't want my money heterosexual or gay that is fine I will find someone else that does want my money.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

ludin said:
yep because they are the ones destroying peoples lives and I take offense to that. would you not agree?
I agree the market should sort it out for itself but that isn't the way that it works.

do you know that 13 gay bakeries refused to make a religious cake that said something about marriage is between a man and a women?
do you not realize that all 13 of those bakeries discriminated against someone based on their religious views?

that the state more than likely will not pursue those bakeries for discrimination?
there is a double standard being put in place by the law and peoples rights are being trampled on.

that is like the New mexico gay barber that refused to cut the Gov. hair because she is catholic and believes that marriage is between a man and a women.

do you not realize that is religious discrimination? should he have his business shut down or fine so much that it puts him out of business and he losses his home?
I don't.

that is the problem the market isn't deciding anything. it is being decided by lawyers and courts and that is not the way it should be.

if someone doesn't want my money heterosexual or gay that is fine I will find someone else that does want my money.

Since I do not consider bakeries an essential public service, they can be as discriminatory as they want as far as I am concerned. If 13 bakeries owned by gays refused to make such cakes, then they are merely reacting to the hatred against them, which is part of how the market sorts these things out.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

it's just me said:
Who are the "extremists" on the other side, the baker who was run out of business?

If you allow yourself to be run out of business because of your prejudice means more to you than the roof over your head, then yes.

it's just me · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
If you allow yourself to be run out of business because of your prejudice means more to you than the roof over your head, then yes.

They would say it was because their principles mean more to them, but this is the 21st century, unprotected groups don't have the luxury of principles.

ludin · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
Since I do not consider bakeries an essential public service, they can be as discriminatory as they want as far as I am concerned. If 13 bakeries owned by gays refused to make such cakes, then they are merely reacting to the hatred against them, which is part of how the market sorts these things out.

under currently that is illegal and religious discrimination. they should have the same suits as those that refused to do gay weddings and they should be fined at the cost of the businesses and homes.

they have to make a cake that says marriage is between a man and a women and they have no right to refuse. to refuse is religious discrimination, but I bet you anything that the state won't take them to court and file religious discrimination grievances against them.

it is a double standard. that is why you are seeing the divide that you are seeing and until a court shuts down extremists and allows the economy to decide you will continue to see the divide get bigger.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

ludin said:
under currently that is illegal and religious discrimination. they should have the same suits as those that refused to do gay weddings and they should be fined at the cost of the businesses and homes.

they have to make a cake that says marriage is between a man and a women and they have no right to refuse. to refuse is religious discrimination, but I bet you anything that the state won't take them to court and file religious discrimination grievances against them.

it is a double standard. that is why you are seeing the divide that you are seeing and until a court shuts down extremists and allows the economy to decide you will continue to see the divide get bigger.

Nobody said life was fair.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

it's just me said:
They would say it was because their principles mean more to them, but this is the 21st century, unprotected groups don't have the luxury of principles.

Well find all those people whose principles mean more to them than a roof over you head and you have found the extremists you were asking about.

ludin · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
Nobody said life was fair.

nope it isn't however the courts are not supposed to be one sided.
however you seem to have a double standard as the court.

so it is pointless even discussing it with you.

we will see how this other case in CO goes.

ludin · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
Well find all those people whose principles mean more to them than a roof over you head and you have found the extremists you were asking about.

nope they are not extremists people like you are the extremists that need to be dealt with.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

ludin said:
nope they are not extremists people like you are the extremists that need to be dealt with.

What are you gonna do?

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

ludin said:
nope it isn't however the courts are not supposed to be one sided.
however you seem to have a double standard as the court.

so it is pointless even discussing it with you.

we will see how this other case in CO goes.

I have no standard. It is what it is. Some discrimination is legal and others are not.

ludin · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
What are you gonna do?

wait for the backlash to do what it usually does and push the extremists back to the edges where they are quiet again.
i will continue to tell you that religious views are just as much protected rights. that one doesn't trump the other.

ludin · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
I have no standard. It is what it is. Some discrimination is legal and others are not.

nope discrimination against religious views is illegal.
the problem is that the courts and government has injected itself into what should be a private economy matter.

and you are going to see the number of religious complaints against businesses increase.
i find it foolish and stupid.

if someone doesn't want my money i will find someone that does.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

ludin said:
nope discrimination against religious views is illegal.
the problem is that the courts and government has injected itself into what should be a private economy matter.

and you are going to see the number of religious complaints against businesses increase.
i find it foolish and stupid.

if someone doesn't want my money i will find someone that does.

No discrimination against "religious views" is not illegal.

Court do not randomly inject themselves into matters. SOmeone has to bring it to the courts.

I don't care how many religious complaints are filed against businesses.

You can do whatever you want with your money.

Helix · Mar 30, 2015

it's just me said:
"For all the insipid talk among its spokesmen about open-mindedness and tolerance, this strand of what liberal comedian Bill Maher dubs the "gay mafia" is a sworn enemy of both....Under Indiana's religious freedom law, not one Gen Con attendee (gay, transgender, cross-dressing) could be denied a seat at a lunch counter by that mythical boogeyman – the Christian bigot burger-maker with his "gaydar" fully activated. That's not what this law does.

Instead, it protects a private business owner (who might be gay themselves) from being coerced by the power of government to act in a manner incompatible with their deeply held religious convictions. In other words, it protects the Jewish sign maker from being forced by the state to make pro-Nazi placards for the next skinhead convention."

Pete Heck: Gay rights activists to Christians

gay =/= nazi or skinhead. you aren't born a nazi, so the analogy is completely flawed.

is this the new right wing talking point? i've seen it twice now.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

ludin said:
wait for the backlash to do what it usually does and push the extremists back to the edges where they are quiet again.
i will continue to tell you that religious views are just as much protected rights. that one doesn't trump the other.

wait=nothing. That is what I thought.

it's just me · Mar 30, 2015

Helix said:
gay =/= nazi or skinhead. you aren't born a nazi, so the analogy is completely flawed.

is this the new right wing talking point? i've seen it twice now.

I've got news for you, gay isn't black, either, but that hasn't stopped the left from trying to make that case.

catch22 · Mar 30, 2015

I'm sure these good christian bakers will also refuse to make cakes for all couples who aren't virgins. That's outlined many times in the bible that pre marital sex is a sin. Wait, discriminating against people like that seems to not be up to date with the current times we are living in. Huh just like gay marriage.

it's just me · Mar 30, 2015

Declan said:
Well find all those people whose principles mean more to them than a roof over you head and you have found the extremists you were asking about.

Yes, we know how they feel about independent thinking in this country, better to shut up, sit down, and go to the back of the bus. Don't forget your arm band.

it's just me · Mar 30, 2015

catch22 said:
I'm sure these good christian bakers will also refuse to make cakes for all couples who aren't virgins. That's outlined many times in the bible that pre marital sex is a sin. Wait, discriminating against people like that seems to not be up to date with the current times we are living in. Huh just like gay marriage.

Most people don't feel the need to advertise their sex lives. If they did, the bakers just might refuse them.

Declan · Mar 30, 2015

it's just me said:
Yes, we know how they feel about independent thinking in this country, better to shut up, sit down, and go to the back of the bus. Don't forget your arm band.

Wife beaters don't have sleeves, so arm bands leave a tan line.

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