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About faith

Where do you get the anti-blind faith thing?

I think it means what it says, obviously using hyperbole, and typical Jewish poetic language, it means what it seams to mean, i.e. if you have faith you can accomplish things that seamed impossible to you before, remember it was in the context of casting out a deamon, the apostles couldn't do it, he could, and he credited faith.

Nope, I insist on taking him literally. My faith should give me telekinesis.

Mischaracterizing scientific theories doesn't make you look good.

How do you think your partisan hackery in mischaracterizing conservatives makes you look?
 
How do you think your partisan hackery in mischaracterizing conservatives makes you look?

Like I understand how conservative rhetoric operates and can identity its bad faith workings?

Meanwhile, this thread isn't about me, but is about faith and Vance attacked science with a strawman, which I responded to. Try to stay on topic.
 
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief;

Well, that's what I meant. Let's read it with some translation to contemporary world, shall we? :)

19 Then the students came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cure?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief (in your own skills);

So, you see, it's entirely "standart" situation to be found in any medical school. :) We have a professor (a professional) and his students (disciples) trying to cure someone. "Why couldn't we do it?". "Because you didn't know exactly what you were doing. When you learn how and be sure what you do then you will have confidence (faith) in your own work".

:peace
 
Well, that's what I meant. Let's read it with some translation to contemporary world, shall we? :)



So, you see, it's entirely "standart" situation to be found in any medical school. :) We have a professor (a professional) and his students (disciples) trying to cure someone. "Why couldn't we do it?". "Because you didn't know exactly what you were doing. When you learn how and be sure what you do then you will have confidence (faith) in your own work".:peace

But in that particular scenario, they were referring to exorcism, not standard medical practice.
Luke, by profession was a physician....therefore, he wouldn't have been lacking in faith in his skills as a physician.

The apostles - though they believe Jesus - were lacking in faith in Him! The only time their faith soared to greatness was when Jesus had risen from the dead and appeared to them. The lack of faith referred to in that verse is faith in Jesus Christ.



John 20
Seeing and Believing

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

That You May Believe
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

:peace
 
But in that particular scenario, they were referring to exorcism, not standard medical practice.
Luke, by profession was a physician....therefore, he wouldn't have been lacking in faith in his skills as a physician.

The apostles - though they believe Jesus - were lacking in faith in Him! The only time their faith soared to greatness was when Jesus had risen from the dead and appeared to them. The lack of faith referred to in that verse is faith in Jesus Christ.



John 20
Seeing and Believing

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

That You May Believe
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

:peace

Furthermore, the changed attitudes of the Apostles after the Resurrection of Jesus is one of the most compelling evidence for the Resurrection.

Whereas when Jesus died, the Apostles and followers all hid themselves, afraid that they would be rounded up and persecuted.....witnessing Jesus had risen from the dead, and first-hand witness to the resurrection resulted in their fearless confidence to boldly spread the Gospel, all of them except one died for their faith!

Even Paul - who hated and persecuted Christians - though he didn't see the actual Resurrection (but was spoken to by Jesus), ended up converted and willingly became a martyr!

Why would someone who previously lacked the courage (and obviously, faith) suddenly muster such confidence that he would willingly die for it?

Because they witnessed! They saw with their own eyes!
 
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OK, tell me one person that has moved a mountain with his fate, please.

Red Sea was parted in Exodus, Christ calmed the seas, turned water into wine, and miraculously fed the multitudes. I have no doubt a righteous person with the spirit of God guiding them and who has real priesthood authority, if the spirit guides them to say mountain move hence, it would happen.
 
Red Sea was parted in Exodus, Christ calmed the seas, turned water into wine, and miraculously fed the multitudes. I have no doubt a righteous person with the spirit of God guiding them and who has real priesthood authority, if the spirit guides them to say mountain move hence, it would happen.

I don't see a moved mountain here. If we are going to be literal, let's be literal. No mountain so far. ;)
 
The apostles - though they believe Jesus - were lacking in faith in Him!:peace

That only proves my point, does it not? ;) It's very hard to have absolute certainty, especially on metaphysical issues.
If the direct students of Jesus lacked faith and had doubts, what can be expected from the common man?
 
Nope, I insist on taking him literally. My faith should give me telekinesis.

Well, that's just your own ignorance there isn't it.
 
Well, there is, generally speaking, two kinds of faith - faith as confidence (you could call it professionalism, I guess) and blind faith (believe everything you are told from an authority). I don't think Jesus encouraged option 2, so it leaves option 1. :) Otherwise Jesus would be just another "wishful thinker", which I believe He is not.

I agree ... but that wasn't the point of the scripture at all.
 
That only proves my point, does it not? ;) It's very hard to have absolute certainty, especially on metaphysical issues.
If the direct students of Jesus lacked faith and had doubts, what can be expected from the common man?

I was responding to your OP and proceeding assertions.


Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

We all know Jesus loved talking parables.
Since He allegedly knew that moving mountains is beyond human powers (moreover in an age when excavators and big trucks didn't exist), what was the meaning of those words above?
I say it was an anti-blind fate argument.
What do you think?


Canell
Even moving mountains? OK, so I agree you could move a mountain but it would take massive earthquakes and geological changes to accomplish that. Or just wait 100 million years. In that regard, yes, it is possible to move mountains.

Other than that, those words of Jesus don't literally make sense.

If one reads just the passage that you've quoted above, of course it wouldn't make sense. That's my point. We have to read and understand it within the right context, otherwise we can just interpret it anyway we want. We have to know what the subject is, and read the whole chapter if need be. We may even have to cross-reference.


Well, there is, generally speaking, two kinds of faith - faith as confidence (you could call it professionalism, I guess) and blind faith (believe everything you are told from an authority). I don't think Jesus encouraged option 2, so it leaves option 1. Otherwise Jesus would be just another "wishful thinker", which I believe He is not.

Do you regard the Bible as the AUTHORITATIVE Book from God? That's the question.

The only Authority is God. You are inter-mixing having "blind faith" in God with having blind faith in man.


Canell

19 Then the students came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cure?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief (in your own skills);
So, you see, it's entirely "standart" situation to be found in any medical school. We have a professor (a professional) and his students (disciples) trying to cure someone. "Why couldn't we do it?". "Because you didn't know exactly what you were doing. When you learn how and be sure what you do then you will have confidence (faith) in your own work".


First of all, there is no such thing as our "OWN" work....or "own" possession. Everything came from God. If you accomplish or gain something, it's either because He let it happen without intervening, or He willed it to happen.

Second, we are dependent on Him. Humbly acknowledging our dependence on Him is part of our faith. Why do you think we're instructed to pray to God? To ask Him? He already knows everything....so why do we need to pray?

Because in praying, we demonstrate our humble acceptance that He is our God....that His Will will be done...and that we depend on Him!

And as explained, they're not talking about standard medical procedures. It's exorcism.
Yes, we have a "Professor" teaching and giving an "orientation" to His chosen disciples who'll take over to "supervise/manage" when He leaves.

It's not faith in our own self! It's faith in Jesus Christ. Plain and simple. Here's part of the "orientation" speech!


John 14
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
That includes doing miracles. In fact some of his apostles were able to raise the dead in Acts!


As for Jesus commending blind faith, how much more clear can it be with His message to His Apostles?

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"



Canell
That only proves my point, does it not? It's very hard to have absolute certainty, especially on metaphysical issues.
If the direct students of Jesus lacked faith and had doubts, what can be expected from the common man?

No it didn't prove your point. The point you were trying to make was that Jesus gave an "anti-blind faith" argument. He did not. As proven by John 20:29.


But you're right about doubts.
Doubt and temptation is what all of us Christians will have to battle with for the rest of our lives. And it doesn't get any easier with Satan - and his pawns and minions - planting and stoking that seed of doubt in us.

Satan can also use unwitting Christians, just like he used Peter!

Matthew 16

Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
Thus, we have to try to cling to God no matter what - to keep Jesus in our hearts. You know the drill..."Put on the armour of God."
Ephesians 6:10-18. And we Christians have to help one another to stay strong in faith.

If we're going to be looking for the lost sheep.....it's also best that we make sure we close any back doors so that none may get out and wander off in the first place.

We have to be very careful that we are not being used by Satan to mislead others. :peace
 
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Red Sea was parted in Exodus, Christ calmed the seas, turned water into wine, and miraculously fed the multitudes. I have no doubt a righteous person with the spirit of God guiding them and who has real priesthood authority, if the spirit guides them to say mountain move hence, it would happen.

This is a tautology. You're essentially saying that the spirit can move mountains because mountains can be moved by the spirit.

The real issue is why Jesus said it. And it's clearly hyperbole, like so much of what Jesus says for effect.

Luke.14 - If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Do you take this literally? I hope not.
 
Yes, as stated before I take it literally. As I take literally that the Red Sea was actually parted, that Jesus actually turned water into wine, that He actually calmed the seas, that He actually walked on the water, and miraculously fed the multitudes. I do think there are areas in the Bible that have been translated incorrectly, and that there are some things that are metaphors. But I believe the verse where Christs states with faith you can move mountains can be taken literal. And I am not worried what you or anyone else thinks :peace
 
Yes, as stated before I take it literally. As I take literally that the Red Sea was actually parted, that Jesus actually turned water into wine, that He actually calmed the seas, that He actually walked on the water, and miraculously fed the multitudes. I do think there are areas in the Bible that have been translated incorrectly, and that there are some things that are metaphors. But I believe the verse where Christs states with faith you can move mountains can be taken literal. And I am not worried what you or anyone else thinks :peace

Why do you take it literally? Sounds like a story to me, written to make a point.
 
You have to understand nature of God. I believe our spirits are made up of matter that can be described as living light. For it to be eternal it would have to be quickened until the mass is in all infinite space. So a mortal spirit/intelligence that has broken laws of eternal nature, and has fallen and sowed the seeds of death, which is all of us the literal offspring of God here on earth, at it's zenith can what, see something like 8 moves ahead in a chess game? An eternal intelligence that is in all infinite space can discern every speck of sand in an infinite number of planets in an infinite number of universes and is outside of time, no beginning or end. So while you may not believe such things as walking on water or moving mountains by a word can be done, to God, the Creator, those things likely are nothing.
 
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You have to understand nature of God. I believe our spirits are made up of matter that can be described as living light. For it to be eternal it would have to be quickened until the mass is in all infinite space. So a mortal spirit/intelligence that has broken laws of eternal nature, and has fallen and sowed the seeds of death, all of us the offspring of deity here on earth, at it's zenith can what, see something like 8 moves ahead in a chess game? An eternal intelligence that is in all infinite space can discern every speck of sand in an infinite number of planets in an infinite number of universes and is outside of time, no beginning or end. So while you may not believe such things as walking on water or moving mountains by a word can be done, to such a being those things likely are nothing.

How does this possibly explain how to read a text? We're reading a text. So why take it literally if it's sense works metaphorically?
 
How does this possibly explain how to read a text? We're reading a text. So why take it literally if it's sense works metaphorically?

I believe you are suppose to read the scriptures with the spirit. LDS also have living prophets and additional scriptures to aid in discerning the scriptures. In my view, that is the only way to know truth. Go to the source. Men have been "interpreting" for years and all we have is thousands of different sects.
 
I believe you are suppose to read the scriptures with the spirit. LDS also have living prophets and additional scriptures to aid in discerning the scriptures. In my view, that is the only way to know truth. Go to the source. Men have been "interpreting" for years and all we have is thousands of different sects.

Not a very convincing argument on how to read a text. Not to mention anybody can claim they've read the scripture in the spirit and decided it isn't literal. So there is no standard.

Essentially in this hermeneutic, the text disappears and all people have to do is say the spirit says it means this or that, and that ends the conversation. Frankly, I'd rather talk about these wonderful living texts.
 
I really do not care. I am not trying to win a debate. I don't want to be like those men always arguing and searching for truth and never finding it by using every means but the only way to actually know the truth which is doing what someone like Joseph Smith did, humbly ask God. If those miracles really happened how can you know for sure unless God reveals it to an individual? What physical proof can there possibly be to convince you otherwise? So debating this is meaningless.
 
I really do not care. I am not trying to win a debate. I don't want to be like those men always arguing and searching for truth and never finding it by using every means but the only way to actually know the truth which is doing what someone like Joseph Smith did, humbly ask God. If those miracles really happened how can you know for sure unless God reveals it to an individual? What physical proof can there possibly be to convince you otherwise? So debating this is meaningless.

I don't need miracles to believe in God. I have the gospel.

1 Cor 1: 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;23but we preach Christ crucified.
 
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I really do not care. I am not trying to win a debate. I don't want to be like those men always arguing and searching for truth and never finding it by using every means but the only way to actually know the truth which is doing what someone like Joseph Smith did, humbly ask God. If those miracles really happened how can you know for sure unless God reveals it to an individual? What physical proof can there possibly be to convince you otherwise? So debating this is meaningless.

What kind of miracle are we talking about here?

Are you really talking about asking God - humbly - to perform a miracle, as proof?
 
No, both of you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying there is no way for you to know if the miracles in the NT are true for sure, or even if Jesus really existed, unless the spirit reveals the truth of it to you. You cannot find out by any other way. Not that you have to witness the miracles before you believe, that is not what I am saying. I know God can move mountains not because I have seen it but because of my faith and things I know from the spirit. Miracles are the fruit of faith, not the other way around. Here is what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches:

9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.

10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.

11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

12 Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory. d&C 63:9-12

Faith
 
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