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about damned time[W:31:36]

justabubba

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...703a5a7191_story.html?tid=hybrid_content_3_na

The United States will endorse a tougher tone with Israel in an upcoming international report that takes the Jewish state to task over settlements, demolitions and property seizures on land the Palestinians claim for a future state, diplomats told The Associated Press.
The U.S. and its fellow Mideast mediators also will chastise Palestinian leaders for failing to rein in anti-Israeli violence. But the diplomats involved in drafting the document said its primary focus will be a surge of construction in Jewish housing in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. ...

The document won’t look only at east Jerusalem activity and West Bank settlement construction, but also at a “problematic trend” of legalizing smaller so-called outposts, the officials said. In addition, it will criticize Israel for a growing backlog of housing block approvals.
In 1972, there were just over 10,000 Israeli settlers, with 1,500 living in the West Bank and the rest in east Jerusalem. Two decades later, by the time of the Oslo peace accords, there were 231,200 Israelis living in the territories. That number rose to 365,000 by 2000, when the second Palestinian uprising began, and 474,000 by the time Benjamin Netanyahu became Israel’s prime minister again in 2008.
The settlements are now home to more than 570,000 Israelis, according to the Israeli anti-settlement watchdog Peace Now — 370,000 in the West Bank and 200,000 in east Jerusalem. Settlements range from small wildcat outposts on West Bank hilltops to developed towns with shopping malls, schools and suburban homes. ...

finally putting israel on notice that the the settlements are a barrier to conflict resolution
 

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TheDemSocialist

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Re: about damned time

A bone of contention, for sure. Let's say, settlement expansion curtailed, or receded; would harmony prevail?

"Complete harmony"? No. A major step in the right direction? Yes.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

A bone of contention, for sure. Let's say, settlement expansion curtailed, or receded; would harmony prevail?

harmony could be expected to prevail when the Palestinian people are no longer being oppressed
 

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Re: about damned time

harmony could be expected to prevail when the Palestinian people are no longer being oppressed

But what if the insidious hatred did not cease? What would you argue for then?
 

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Re: about damned time

As if Israel gives a ****. Which is unfortunate but all things considered Israel is just as interested in conflict as anyone else in the greater region.
 

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Re: about damned time

There is already a thread on this.
Settlements constructions have already been frozen by the Israeli government for 9 months and the Palestinians have still refused to enter negotiations,
the claim that it is a barrier to anything is thus ridiculous.
The reason why there aren't any negotiations for peace is because the Palestinian Authority strongly refuses to hold any.
 

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Re: about damned time

There is already a thread on this.
Settlements constructions have already been frozen by the Israeli government for 9 months and the Palestinians have still refused to enter negotiations,
the claim that it is a barrier to anything is thus ridiculous.
The reason why there aren't any negotiations for peace is because the Palestinian Authority strongly refuses to hold any.

Quite right. The Israelis have made concession after concession after concession stopping short of giving the terrorists easy access to terrify, maim, and murder their citizens, but the Palestinians so far have agreed to none. It's pretty difficult to negotiate with people who expect to make no compromises and who expect the other side to make all the concessions and meet all their demands no matter how unreasonable.

The goal of those controlling the Palestinians has never been to help the Palestinians or achieve peace in the Middle East. The goal is to annihilate the Israelis..
 

coldjoint

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Re: about damned time

Good. Its one of the major barriers to peace. Now if only if the US would connect aid to Israel with illegal settlement expansion/construction...

Why? They don't connect the aid to Palestinians with terror.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

But what if the insidious hatred did not cease? What would you argue for then?

once the Palestinian have their own sovereign country, free from israeli interference, any military action taken by that nation against israel deserves to be responded to by the israeli military
no holds barred
israel is entitled to defend its people
just as is the Palestinian nation
the difference will be that israel will have a MUCH superior military capacity to do so. at least for a generation
 

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Re: about damned time

once the Palestinian have their own sovereign country, free from israeli interference, any military action taken by that nation against israel deserves to be responded to by the israeli military
no holds barred

It works the same even if they don't have a state of their own.
From the way you put it it sounds like you think that if a non-state faction attacks a state faction the state faction can not react.
 

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Re: about damned time

once the Palestinian have their own sovereign country, free from israeli interference, any military action taken by that nation against israel deserves to be responded to by the israeli military
no holds barred
israel is entitled to defend its people
just as is the Palestinian nation
the difference will be that israel will have a MUCH superior military capacity to do so. at least for a generation

Uh huh. Fast forward to the future when Palestine is formed alongside Israel (say, the year three billion AD), and Palestinians...surprise surprise!...start to launch attacks against Israel. After about a year of this Israel eventually declares war against Palestine, because that's what happens when a state attacks another state, and is forced to occupy Palestine to curtail the attacks against its citizens.

That's what happens when the Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist under any circumstances.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

It works the same even if they don't have a state of their own.
From the way you put it it sounds like you think that if a non-state faction attacks a state faction the state faction can not react.

240 years ago, there was a nation oppressed by an occupying force
i approve of the native people to throw off their oppressors then
just as i do today in the ME
 

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Re: about damned time

240 years ago, there was a nation oppressed by an occupying force
i approve of the native people to throw off their oppressors then
just as i do today in the ME

Which has not much to do with my comment about how there is no difference between an attack from a state-faction and a non-state one, unsurprisingly.
And a people cannot be considered "oppressed" when their faith lies in their own hands, the Palestinians were made generous offers by Israeli governments twice in modern era and have denied them both because they do not want to make a single concession.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

Which has not much to do with my comment about how there is no difference between an attack from a state-faction and a non-state one, unsurprisingly.
And a people cannot be considered "oppressed" when their faith lies in their own hands, the Palestinians were made generous offers by Israeli governments twice in modern era and have denied them both because they do not want to make a single concession.

i believe that a people, whose lands are occupied by another uninvited nation, is found to be oppressed
more so when recognizing that the lands of that people are being given over to the citizens of the uninvited occupying nation
 

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Re: about damned time

i believe that a people, whose lands are occupied by another uninvited nation, is found to be oppressed
more so when recognizing that the lands of that people are being given over to the citizens of the uninvited occupying nation

You're repeating yourself. A people cannot be considered "oppressed" when their faith is in their own hands. Accepting one of the generous offers and they would have a state, they can still release a statement any moment now that they accept those offers from back then and they'll probably have a state. In no dictionary is the word oppressed fitting of the Palestinian people when this little piece of reality is being pointed out.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

You're repeating yourself. A people cannot be considered "oppressed" when their faith is in their own hands. Accepting one of the generous offers and they would have a state, they can still release a statement any moment now that they accept those offers from back then and they'll probably have a state. In no dictionary is the word oppressed fitting of the Palestinian people when this little piece of reality is being pointed out.

i am pointing out the facts
the Palestinian lands are occupied by those of another nation
without invitation
they are indeed subjected to the oppression of occupation
 

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Re: about damned time

i am pointing out the facts
the Palestinian lands are occupied by those of another nation
without invitation
they are indeed subjected to the oppression of occupation

An occupation they can end by accepting one of the offers that by all means sees Israel making more concessions than they do(Hence why I keep referring to them as "generous", which is really an understatement). So their faith is in their hands and they are not oppressed.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

An occupation they can end by accepting one of the offers that by all means sees Israel making more concessions than they do(Hence why I keep referring to them as "generous", which is really an understatement). So their faith is in their hands and they are not oppressed.

an occupation that endures
as it has for decades
 

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Re: about damned time

an occupation that endures
as it has for decades

One that could endure less if Palestinian actions were (or are, since they can do it any moment) different and they were to stop rejecting such deals, so yeah, their faith is in their own hands, for the fourth time.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

One that could endure less if Palestinian actions were (or are, since they can do it any moment) different and they were to stop rejecting such deals, so yeah, their faith is in their own hands, for the fourth time.

if fate were truly in their own hands, they could tell the israelis within their borders to leave
they could establish a sovereign nation of Palestine, IF their fate was truly within their own hands
 

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Re: about damned time

if fate were truly in their own hands, they could tell the israelis within their borders to leave
they could establish a sovereign nation of Palestine, IF their fate was truly within their own hands

Palestinians having no borders aside, so according to you Israel is oppressed because it cannot tell Palestinians to leave?
Having your own faith in your hands means that the actions you take decide your future, and indeed the Palestinians have their own faith in their hands when they can by accepting an agreement have by tomorrow's morning light a sovereign state of their own. Surely you realize that's true.
 

justabubba

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Re: about damned time

Palestinians having no borders aside, so according to you Israel is oppressed because it cannot tell Palestinians to leave?
Having your own faith in your hands means that the actions you take decide your future, and indeed the Palestinians have their own faith in their hands when they can by accepting an agreement have by tomorrow's morning light a sovereign state of their own. Surely you realize that's true.

having one's fate determined by another is NOT having one's fate in one's own hands
i'll quote you:
Surely you realize that's true
 
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