• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Abortion

Should abortion be legal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 61.5%
  • No

    Votes: 9 34.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • Total voters
    26

U.S.Repub1

New member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Should abortion be legal?
 

Peralin

Active member
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
426
Reaction score
6
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Good poll, I'd like to see the results in a few months. No, it should not be legal. Nobody knows for sure whether the fetus is or is not a living human being. It's not worth the risk that we might be killing millions of little innocent children.
 

U.S.Repub1

New member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Peralin said:
Good poll, I'd like to see the results in a few months. No, it should not be legal. Nobody knows for sure whether the fetus is or is not a living human being. It's not worth the risk that we might be killing millions of little innocent children.
I agree I think it is a baby from the time the sperm cell fertilizes the egg cell. And if the Liberals think that it is not a baby at 4 weeks the brain starts to function. At 5 and a halve weeks the heart starts to beat.
 

Vandeervecken

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
744
Reaction score
1
Location
Midland MI USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Rights accrue at birth. A fetus is not born, and has no standing under the Constitution.

Even if one were to foolishly grant a fetus rights, it could not have rights that supersede the host.

Nobody has the right to life when it requires the body of an unwilling host to do so.
 

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Vandeervecken said:
Rights accrue at birth. A fetus is not born, and has no standing under the Constitution.

Even if one were to foolishly grant a fetus rights, it could not have rights that supersede the host.

Nobody has the right to life when it requires the body of an unwilling host to do so.
Where in the Constitution is the right to an abortion?
 

Vandeervecken

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
744
Reaction score
1
Location
Midland MI USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
conserv.pat15 said:
Where in the Constitution is the right to an abortion?
Directly? Nowhere. However as the government is NOT given the power in the Constitution to ban it, then under the 9th and 10th amendments that is a right retained by the people. Of course you can also cover it under the 1st and 14th Amendments as well.
 

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Vandeervecken said:
Directly? Nowhere. However as the government is NOT given the power in the Constitution to ban it, then under the 9th and 10th amendments that is a right retained by the people. Of course you can also cover it under the 1st and 14th Amendments as well.
None of those amendments gives the right to an abortion. None of those amendments keep the government from banning abortion. Where are you getting the right to an abortion in the 1st amendment?????!!!!! The 9th and 10th amendments don't prevent the government from banning abortion. Also, an argument can be made that an abortion violates the 14th amendment.
 

Vandeervecken

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
744
Reaction score
1
Location
Midland MI USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
conserv.pat15 said:
None of those amendments gives the right to an abortion. None of those amendments keep the government from banning abortion. Where are you getting the right to an abortion in the 1st amendment?????!!!!! The 9th and 10th amendments don't prevent the government from banning abortion. Also, an argument can be made that an abortion violates the 14th amendment.

You need to re-read your Constitution.

!st amendment argument:

The belief that a fetus is the equal of a born human is a religious belief nothing more. To legislate this is to impose religion.

9th and 10th Amendment Argument

Both make clear that any power not granted to the government is a right retained by the people. Nowhere in the Constitution is the government given ANY dominion over the bodies of citizens much less their reproductive organs.

14th Amendment argument

Rights accrue at birth according to the 14th Amendment Section 1, a fetus has not been born. Ergo it has no standing under the Constitution.


I'd love to see you try and argue your claim the 14th gives the government the power to control abortion.
 

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The first amendment gives the right to practice any religion you want, the right to free speech, the right to peaceably assemble, and the right to petition the government. Those are the rights the first amendment gives...... Nothing even remotely close to protecting the right to an abortion. Show me the exact clause that protects the right to an abortion in the first amendment.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The 9th amendment also does not protect an abortion and does not prevent the government from banning it.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The 10th amendment does not protect an abortion and does not prevent the government from banning it.

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The 14th amendment does not protect an abortion and does not prevent the government from banning it. Notice how the 14th amendment is very specific when it says CITIZEN and when it says PERSON..... this is very interesting how these two terms are used in this amendment. It says that a state can't deprive any PERSON of life without due process of the law..... notice that it did not say CITIZEN. Once it is established that a fetus is a human being(which it is), abortion becomes illegal.
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
conserv.pat15 said:
Where in the Constitution is the right to an abortion?
It's not in the Constitution. Now why does that imply that it should be illegal?
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
U.S.Repub1 said:
I agree I think it is a baby from the time the sperm cell fertilizes the egg cell. And if the Liberals think that it is not a baby at 4 weeks the brain starts to function. At 5 and a halve weeks the heart starts to beat.
Those are meaningless moments that have nothing to do with a right to life. A pig has a beating heart and a functioning brain too.
 

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Kandahar said:
Those are meaningless moments that have nothing to do with a right to life. A pig has a beating heart and a functioning brain too.
Those are not meaningless moments... these moments strengthen the argument proving that the fetus is a living human being.
 

Vandeervecken

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
744
Reaction score
1
Location
Midland MI USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
conserv.pat15 said:
Those are not meaningless moments... these moments strengthen the argument proving that the fetus is a living human being.
As he pointed out those are not things exclusive to a human being and thus pointless in the role you wish to assign them.

The fetus is a parasite that needs a host to keep it alive, the host has the right to evict. It is really that simple.
 

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Vandeervecken said:
As he pointed out those are not things exclusive to a human being and thus pointless in the role you wish to assign them.

The fetus is a parasite that needs a host to keep it alive, the host has the right to evict. It is really that simple.
It doesn't matter if they are not exclusive to humans. Those are still signs of life, proving that the fetus is living. Also, just because the baby needs help from it's mother to grow does not mean that it is not a life. A fetus is a growing and development stage of life, just as birth is a stage, childhood is a stage, adulthood is a stage, ect.

By the way... can you comment on my other post earlier in this thread.
 

Simon W. Moon

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
23,380
Reaction score
8,538
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
For centuries, no one who was not "born alive" could be killed.

Also, IIRC, (and someone WILL correct me if I'm wrong) in the OT tradition placed emphasis on the quickening of the fetus as significant turning point.

The idea that a single pair of cells is the equivalent of a born baby is a new-fangled development.
 

Stace

Boobie Jubilee
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
7,255
Reaction score
364
Location
Clarksville, TN
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
conserv.pat15 said:
It doesn't matter if they are not exclusive to humans. Those are still signs of life, proving that the fetus is living. Also, just because the baby needs help from it's mother to grow does not mean that it is not a life. A fetus is a growing and development stage of life, just as birth is a stage, childhood is a stage, adulthood is a stage, ect.

By the way... can you comment on my other post earlier in this thread.
Well, it does matter if those functions are exclusive to humans or not. We surely don't think twice about butchering a hog, even though it has a beating heart and brain functions. Why is that not considered murder to most people? We don't need red meat or pork or any of that to survive, so why kill these innocent animals?

Can you tell me how YOU have a right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do regarding matters of her body? How is it affecting YOUR life if she has an abortion? I have yet to find someone from the pro life side that can answer those questions logically.
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Stace said:
Can you tell me how YOU have a right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do regarding matters of her body? How is it affecting YOUR life if she has an abortion? I have yet to find someone from the pro life side that can answer those questions logically.
I agree. I often ask pro-lifers exactly why murder is illegal in the first place, and they don't seem to have the slightest clue. It's illegal because A) we want to preserve the thoughts/personality of individuals who might otherwise be murdered, and B) because if we allowed murderers to get away with it, we could be next. Neither of those arguments apply to a fetus.
 

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Stace said:
Well, it does matter if those functions are exclusive to humans or not. We surely don't think twice about butchering a hog, even though it has a beating heart and brain functions. Why is that not considered murder to most people? We don't need red meat or pork or any of that to survive, so why kill these innocent animals?

Can you tell me how YOU have a right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do regarding matters of her body? How is it affecting YOUR life if she has an abortion? I have yet to find someone from the pro life side that can answer those questions logically.
Are you serious?! Killing an animal and killing a human are two completely different things... If you can't see the difference, then I don't know what to tell you...

In regards to your questions... What about the body of the female baby that is being aborted? Why are you against protecting that females(or male) body?

As for your other question... It affects my life because I think unborn children are human beings and I am against aborting them.
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
conserv.pat15 said:
Are you serious?! Killing an animal and killing a human are two completely different things... If you can't see the difference, then I don't know what to tell you...
How is a pig fetus at a similar point in the pregnancy any functionally different from a human fetus at 4-5 weeks? They even LOOK the same.

I majored in biology and minored in psychology, and let me tell you, there's no evidence of any consciousness in human beings until well after birth. And as far as I'm concerned, conciousness is the only basis for protecting human life because any other basis is either arbitrary or could easily apply to animals too.

conserv.pat15 said:
In regards to your questions... What about the body of the female baby that is being aborted? Why are you against protecting that females(or male) body?
Because it's a parasite and requires the enslavement of a host. If you woke up strapped to a table, and a doctor told you that he was going to remove your kidney against your will because someone else needed it to survive, would you be OK with this? What if he told you that you'd be so sick from this that you'd be unable to continue your normal life for the next nine months, and furthermore there was a slight chance that you'd die during the procedure? How is that any different than forcing a woman to carry a child to term?

conserv.pat15 said:
As for your other question... It affects my life because I think unborn children are human beings and I am against aborting them.
That's not an answer because I already explained why the reasons behind a prohibition on murder don't apply to fetuses.
 

Memnon

New member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
conserv.pat15 said:
Blahblahblah, I am too lazy to read back and find the quote in which you said that if something was not specifically stated in the constition, it was illegal or should be made illegal.
Well, there is nothing in the Constitution that says I cannot eat grapes while standing upside down reading a book, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Forgive me if my understanding of the American constitution is flawed, I am Canadian and woefully ignorant of the fine points of your law.

Now, for my personal stance on abortion: I do not feel that abortion should be made illegal. I support the women's right to choose.

a) I do not think a fetus is alive. While I would not go so far as to call it a "clump of cells", I do not consider something "alive" until it is capable of surviving outside the womb. As far as scientists can tell, and I will agree with this until it is disproven, this point is ten weeks, or almost at the third trimester.

b) On this note, abortion is not murder, as the fetus is not yet a "living" being. As someone very eloquently put earlier, the fetus is something that depends on the mother, and should, at the mothers DISCRETION, be removed within reason (meaning, not into the third trimester).

c) In light of some people saying that they feel that a fetus is alive when the sperm and egg meet, the potential for life is not enough to act on. See above statements.

Please note that I am not interested in replies that have anything to do with God, Jesus, religion, the Bible, etc. because I don't care about those. I care about facts. This isn't directed at people that have posted here, it is just my experience on previous debate forums. :)
 

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Kandahar said:
How is a pig fetus at a similar point in the pregnancy any functionally different from a human fetus at 4-5 weeks? They even LOOK the same.

I majored in biology and minored in psychology, and let me tell you, there's no evidence of any consciousness in human beings until well after birth. And as far as I'm concerned, conciousness is the only basis for protecting human life because any other basis is either arbitrary or could easily apply to animals too.



Because it's a parasite and requires the enslavement of a host. If you woke up strapped to a table, and a doctor told you that he was going to remove your kidney against your will because someone else needed it to survive, would you be OK with this? What if he told you that you'd be so sick from this that you'd be unable to continue your normal life for the next nine months, and furthermore there was a slight chance that you'd die during the procedure? How is that any different than forcing a woman to carry a child to term?



That's not an answer because I already explained why the reasons behind a prohibition on murder don't apply to fetuses.
You liberals don't make sense... stop trying to compare the value of a human fetus vs. an animal fetus. Also, Kandahar, your analogy is poor at best.
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Memnon said:
Well, there is nothing in the Constitution that says I cannot eat grapes while standing upside down reading a book, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Forgive me if my understanding of the American constitution is flawed, I am Canadian and woefully ignorant of the fine points of your law.

Now, for my personal stance on abortion: I do not feel that abortion should be made illegal. I support the women's right to choose.

a) I do not think a fetus is alive. While I would not go so far as to call it a "clump of cells", I do not consider something "alive" until it is capable of surviving outside the womb. As far as scientists can tell, and I will agree with this until it is disproven, this point is ten weeks, or almost at the third trimester.

b) On this note, abortion is not murder, as the fetus is not yet a "living" being. As someone very eloquently put earlier, the fetus is something that depends on the mother, and should, at the mothers DISCRETION, be removed within reason (meaning, not into the third trimester).

c) In light of some people saying that they feel that a fetus is alive when the sperm and egg meet, the potential for life is not enough to act on. See above statements.

Please note that I am not interested in replies that have anything to do with God, Jesus, religion, the Bible, etc. because I don't care about those. I care about facts. This isn't directed at people that have posted here, it is just my experience on previous debate forums. :)

That's a slippery slope. If abortions are illegal/immoral in the third trimester because the fetus is theoretically capable of surviving outside the womb with intensive care, what happens if new-and-improved technology makes it possible for the fetus to survive outside the womb in the second trimester? Do those abortions suddenly become illegal/immoral too?

I see no reason to outlaw abortion at ANY point in the pregnancy. Whether it's capable of surviving outside the womb is an arbitrary criterion.
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
conserv.pat15 said:
You liberals don't make sense... stop trying to compare the value of a human fetus vs. an animal fetus.
No. Why don't you provide some rebuttal to show us how they're functionally different.

conserv.pat15 said:
Also, Kandahar, your analogy is poor at best.
Another vague generalization. What is it about my analogy that doesn't work?
 
Last edited:

conserv.pat15

Banned
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
647
Reaction score
7
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Memnon..... that quote that you put up in your last post on this thread was not mine.
 

Memnon

New member
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Kandahar said:
That's a slippery slope. If abortions are illegal/immoral in the third trimester because the fetus is theoretically capable of surviving outside the womb with intensive care, what happens if new-and-improved technology makes it possible for the fetus to survive outside the womb in the second trimester? Do those abortions suddenly become illegal/immoral too?

I see no reason to outlaw abortion at ANY point in the pregnancy. Whether it's capable of surviving outside the womb is an arbitrary criterion.
Hm... good question. In that case, I'd have to reevaluate my beliefs. Right now, I meant more without technology... as in the fetus has everything necessary to try and survive on its own, but either can or simply cannot.

Did that make any sense?
 
Top Bottom