Abortion Warnings?

[Naughty Nurse]

If you need clarification, next time you're on duty, wander into the aboratorium and check out the contents of the slop buckets.

I work in a hospice, hon. We don't have such a place.

 

[Fantasea]

I work in a hospice, hon. We don't have such a place.

On your next day off, may I suggest an educational field trip?

 

[Naughty Nurse]

On your next day off, may I suggest an educational field trip?

Ooh, yes please! A museum? An art gallery?

 

[Stinger]

First of all, where is your reference? What site did you get this from? What scientific reference do you have to the study? next time, perhaps take a bit better care as to your referencing so we don't have to ask these questions and doubt your sincerity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
" A study published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry.....

And that sure sounds like correlation.

And correlations this strong are all that's required to require doctors issue warnings. I have signed in my mother, my wife and my children enough times and had to sign all the forms advising of the correleations and possibles effects to know this.

And is there evidence that this was because of the abortions, or were the abortions merely a result and part of a more stressful life in general?

Read the studies they are quite clear in all this and the two I cited aren't the only two to find this strong correlation. The evidence is quite clear and convincing. If you can find one that discounts it then post it.

Else.

Should doctors be required, as with any other medical proceedure, to fully inform the woman of the possible consequences of the abortion? If not why not.



I'm not going to argue the vericity of the studies, they are peer reviewed and published in medical journals, your layman attempts to dismiss them carry no weight against that.

 

[steen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
" A study published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry.....

A scientific reference AT A MINIMUM will also include the volume, year and pages of that journal, and should include authors and title as well.

And correlations this strong are all that's required to require doctors issue warnings.

If it stood alone, or had no evidence to the contrary, yes. But the scientific evidence has overwhelmingly been pointing the other way for a long time, so this might be a fluke. At best you can say that we are not as sure as we were before and we will provide some specific and well-designed studies to clarify it. That is the only thing that would be prudent here.

And no, correlation has NEVER been the same as causation. Pretending this to be so is flagrantly dishonest.

Read the studies they are quite clear in all this and the two I cited aren't the only two to find this strong correlation.

And I used to have a file of about 30 studies showing no net effect, but until I get my laptop back from repair, it is unavailable.

The evidence is quite clear and convincing. If you can find one that discounts it then post it.

These are two big studies to that effect:

Major B, Cozzarelli C, Cooper ML, Zubek J, Richards C, Wilhite M & Gramzow RH (2000). Psychological response of women after first-trimester abortion. Archives of General Psychiatry (57), 77-784).

Russo NF & Dabul AJ (1997). The relationship of abortion to well-being: Do race and religion make a difference? Professional Psychology: Research and Practice (28), 23-31

Should doctors be required, as with any other medical proceedure, to fully inform the woman of the possible consequences of the abortion? If not why not.

Certainly. Those that are proved.

I'm not going to argue the vericity of the studies, they are peer reviewed and published in medical journals,

As are many studies to the contrary. But then, that must mean that you accept all peer-reviewed, scientific material in valid science/medical journals, right?

Because otherwise, you would be a hypocrite.

 

[Fantasea]

Well, Fant, haven't seen you for a while. It seems that nothing has changed in the interim.

That's true. Every abortion still results in a dead child.

 

[Fantasea]

Ooh, yes please! A museum? An art gallery?

No silly; your local aboratorium. Perhaps they'll extend a professional courtesy and let you check out the slop buckets.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

No silly; your local aboratorium. Perhaps they'll extend a professional courtesy and let you check out the slop buckets.

Ooh, do you think they might? Should I take a picnic?

 

[Fantasea]

Ooh, do you think they might? Should I take a picnic?

Why not? You might wish to be prepared in case the experience whets your appetite.

Some raw liver would seem appropriate for the occasion

 

[Kettiecat]

In Michigan (where I went for my abortion) not only did they give me all kinds of pamphlets about what the procedure would be like they also had a councilor talk with me. She went over how I got in that situation, what I would do to prevent it again, did I have support at home, did I feel good about my decision, was I experiencing a religions conflict, they gave me numbers to call if I was having emotional troubles with my decision, names of groups I could contact, she made SURE to remind me that I could carry the fetus to term and have it adopted, we talked about the pros and cons of the different methods of aborting fetuses, we talked about how each individual experiences having an abortion differently, etc. I left the place with paper work that was like 2 inches thick. I don’t think people need to worry (at least in Michigan) that the women getting abortions are uninformed or that the clinics providing them are somehow “keeping” information from women because they want the women to have abortions. I was even given the option of having them print out my ultra sound.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

Some raw liver would seem appropriate for the occasion

Mmmm, with a nice Chianti!

 

[vergiss]

In Michigan (where I went for my abortion) not only did they give me all kinds of pamphlets about what the procedure would be like they also had a councilor talk with me. She went over how I got in that situation, what I would do to prevent it again, did I have support at home, did I feel good about my decision, was I experiencing a religions conflict, they gave me numbers to call if I was having emotional troubles with my decision, names of groups I could contact, she made SURE to remind me that I could carry the fetus to term and have it adopted, we talked about the pros and cons of the different methods of aborting fetuses, we talked about how each individual experiences having an abortion differently, etc. I left the place with paper work that was like 2 inches thick. I don’t think people need to worry (at least in Michigan) that the women getting abortions are uninformed or that the clinics providing them are somehow “keeping” information from women because they want the women to have abortions. I was even given the option of having them print out my ultra sound.

Sheesh, and the pro-lifers make it sound as if they sedate you the moment you step inside the door.

 

[Fantasea]

Sheesh, and the pro-lifers make it sound as if they sedate you the moment you step inside the door.

Given the profit motive in the equation, I would venture that not very many who enter manage to leave without "buying".

 

[Stinger]

Because choice is not about having an abortion

That's the ONLY thing it is about and it is telling how the pro-abortion side can't bring themselves to use the word which labels the very thing the support.

it's about having the freedom to choose how you want to live your life and what you want to do with your body.

Those choices were made before the need for an abortion.

 

[talloulou]

Sheesh, and the pro-lifers make it sound as if they sedate you the moment you step inside the door.

Well Planned Parenthood does have that quaint little website that claims:


"Can an embryo or fetus feel pain?

We know for sure that the embryo or fetus cannot perceive pain in the nearly 99 percent of all abortions that occur before the 20th week of pregnancy. It is even possible that a fetus is unable to perceive pain at any time during pregnancy. If, however, the ability to feel pain does develop before birth and consciousness, it is likely to happen only after the 28th week of pregnancy, when abortion is performed only for urgent medical reasons.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp...-and-a.xml#1096486124102::4516956132643891678

The bold face part is the part where they lie through their teeth and then use the word possible as a nice disclaimer for the lie.

 

[steen]

The bold face part is the part where they lie through their teeth and then use the word possible as a nice disclaimer for the lie.

Ah, like when the pro-lifers spew boldfaced lies about the embryo feeling pain, or about how abortion causes breast cancer and so on? If you want the discussion about what side lies, then by all means bring it on. Because you are not a hypocrite, right?

 

[jfuh]

That's the ONLY thing it is about and it is telling how the pro-abortion side can't bring themselves to use the word which labels the very thing the support.

Who's the pro-abortion side? It is only your conservative fanatics that label choice as pro-abortion. Tell me very simply. Just answer this question. ARe you for the government telling you what to do with your body? Or are you for making the choice for yourself?

Those choices were made before the need for an abortion.

Bullshit, you have sources to back up this claim?

 

[Kettiecat]

Given the profit motive in the equation, I would venture that not very many who enter manage to leave without "buying".

I would venture that most women know what they want to do BEFORE they even walk through the door. They also don't do it the first day you go there, the first day they just give you info and set up your appointment.

 

[talloulou]

Ah, like when the pro-lifers spew boldfaced lies about the embryo feeling pain, or about how abortion causes breast cancer and so on?

Yep just like that....:rofl

I'm glad you didn't didn't try to defend the planned parenthood lie though. You get 1 respect point. :mrgreen:

 

[FutureIncoming]

"Those having an abortion had elevated rates of subsequent mental health problems including depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviors and substance use disorders," reports David Fergusson, a scientist at New Zealand's Christchurch School of Medicine & Health Science."
"The New Zealand study echoed a 2003 report by the Elliot Institute, a nonprofit, pro-life corporation focused on post-abortion research and education. That study found that women who have abortions are 65 percent more likely to experience clinical depression than those who carry their pregnancies to term."
Should doctors be required to inform women of this before they perform an abortion?

I saw a fair amount of the discussion in the early Messages of this Thread. I've indicated in red above why the first study could have been biased/suspect, but so far as I can determine in some quick searching, the second study may be legitimately unbiased. Nevertheless, certain questions remain unanswered. For example, is there a similar study regarding women who have miscarried? Logically, we should compare women who miscarry in the third month with women who abort in the third month, and compare women who miscarry in the fourth month with women who abort in the fourth month, and so on. I half-suspect the ones who miscarry will become MORE depressed than the ones who abort.
Next, did the study examine only the women, or did it also include studying the social environments of those women? How many of those women were denounced socially, after it was learned that they had had abortions? It is reasonably well known that women handle criticism less well than men, and this can lead to depression.
In conclusion of this Message, I'd say that your Question is slightly "loaded", not taking everything into account that might be relevant. For example, if it is common that incomplete pregnancies (whether by miscarriage or abortion) lead to depression, then a warning isn't necessarily as important a thing as a "be prepared for it" speech. Both get the message across, but the second doesn't pit the doctor against the patient's choice. Even if social factors turn out to be at the root of the depression, a "be prepared" speech is still better than a warning.

And now, a question or three for you. (They are differen ways of asking the same thing.)
What general statement can you make, that is provably Objectively True (e.g. "The Earth is spherical"), from which it can be logically deduced that abortions should be prohibited? Why should abortions be prohibited if no provable logical foundation for it exists? Why is an anti-abortion law different from a law that makes it illegal to, for example, shoot your dog?

 

[Fantasea]

Who's the pro-abortion side? It is only your conservative fanatics that label choice as pro-abortion.

Since the only choices are life and death, if one is unwilling to reject abortion, then one's position can only be pro-abortion, or to put it more correctly, pro-death.

Tell me very simply. Just answer this question. ARe you for the government telling you what to do with your body?

The problem is not what one does with one's own body. The problem is what one does with the body of the unborn child.

Or are you for making the choice for yourself?

The choice involves solely the life of the unborn child. After all, isn't it about whether the child lives or dies?

 

[ngdawg]

Since the only choices are life and death, if one is unwilling to reject abortion, then one's position can only be pro-abortion, or to put it more correctly, pro-death.The problem is not what one does with one's own body. The problem is what one does with the body of the unborn child.The choice involves solely the life of the unborn child. After all, isn't it about whether the child lives or dies?

If the 'child' is carried to term and born....but that's not what it's about, so don't be ridiculous.
It's about the woman's life and her rights, specifically her reproductive rights.
No one has the right to force any woman to bear children she does not want or simply can't have. Period.

 

[jfuh]

Since the only choices are life and death, if one is unwilling to reject abortion, then one's position can only be pro-abortion, or to put it more correctly, pro-death.

Do my eye's deciet me, you said choice? It can be taught. Welcome to the pro-choice side.

The problem is not what one does with one's own body. The problem is what one does with the body of the unborn child.The choice involves solely the life of the unborn child. After all, isn't it about whether the child lives or dies?

I don't see any body with a few cells of a just implanted fetus. Better luck next time at your explanation.
As for what it's about, no it has nothing to do with the fetus, it's about the right of the woman to control what is going on with her body.
I'll ask you this same question.
Would you rather the government dictate to you what to do with your body, or would you prefer to make that decision yourself.

 

[steen]

Since the only choices are life and death, if one is unwilling to reject abortion, then one's position can only be pro-abortion, or to put it more correctly, pro-death.

Ah, so all you have is deceptive, pro-life, revisionist lingusitic, blabbering hyperbole.

 

[Fantasea]

If the 'child' is carried to term and born....but that's not what it's about, so don't be ridiculous.

What it's about is killing that child before it reaches term.

It's about the woman's life and her rights, specifically her reproductive rights.
No one has the right to force any woman to bear children she does not want or simply can't have. Period.

Appparently the state government of South Dakota disagrees with you. It will be interesting to watch as the Pro-Death crowd moves this through the courts.