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Abortian and Original Sin

Fu_chick

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It is fair to say that many of the same Christians who are against abortion are also for the death penalty. The argument is that a fetus is an innocent human life and therefore should not be killed, where as the death row inmate has committed murder therefore deserving death. However, one of the key elements of Christianity is original sin, so if a fetus is a human being, then Christianity itself says that it cannot be innocent-it is born with the human stain. Therefore, IMHO the Christian idea that abortion is the killing of an innocent human life is inherently flawed, as in the eyes of Christianity you are born a sinner. Any thoughts?
 

cnredd

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Fu_chick said:
It is fair to say that many of the same Christians who are against abortion are also for the death penalty. The argument is that a fetus is an innocent human life and therefore should not be killed, where as the death row inmate has committed murder therefore deserving death. However, one of the key elements of Christianity is original sin, so if a fetus is a human being, then Christianity itself says that it cannot be innocent-it is born with the human stain. Therefore, IMHO the Christian idea that abortion is the killing of an innocent human life is inherently flawed, as in the eyes of Christianity you are born a sinner. Any thoughts?
Yeah...this thread is stupid...:doh
 

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cnredd said:
Yeah...this thread is stupid...:doh
I'm so sorry, I didn't realize that someone was forcing you to read the thread against your will. :roll:
 

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Fu_chick said:
I'm so sorry, I didn't realize that someone was forcing you to read the thread against your will. :roll:
That was the sound of someone who cannot make an argument at all against what you said. Though it may not be relevant to the whole prolife/prochoice argument, it represents one of the paradoxes of the republican/conservative philosophy. When faced with one, they tend to mutter nonsense until they repress it, thus keeping them always infallible in their minds.
 
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cnredd

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jallman said:
Now what was the point of that?
Anyone attempting to use one's own religion against them WITHOUT understanding the individual is purely judgemenmental, and in this case, as with many more threads I've seen, is not an excercise in trying to understand...it's an exercise to put people in their place.

It's totally disgusting when someone says "It says right HERE that your religion says "A", and you are doing "B", so that means you're a hypocrite!"

I have disagreements with my religion, but that is a personal thing between my religion and myself; not evidence to be used in a court of public opinion against that religion, especially by someone outside of the realm of my brain.

Pointing out hypocracies or double standards does nothing to improve one's own point of view...(some people won't eat meat and then sit down in leather seats in their car...that's their choice)...It's a case of putting others down so you can appear to look better. Equate it to political mud-slinging during an election.

That's the bigger picture....now we'll take a crack at this inparticular thread.

If fu-chick were to delve more deeply into Christianity, she would understand that there is more than one kind of sin, and different ways the Big Cheese will judge them by individual standards. A homeless man watches a guy drops ten dollars and waits for him to leave before picking it up. A sin? Yes...Bill Gates does the same thing...Judged differently?...You betchya...

The church teaches that original sin is not a sin that was done by the "sinner" intentionally...It's more of a way of saying "You can't be on the team until baptism, which is an announcement, USUALLY done by relatives(or "Godparents") that this person made the cut and is now part of the program.

That's pretty tough to do when the chance of that is denied by being dead before having a baptism, don't you think? By equating a sin that was never knowingly committed against a death penalty winner who did is both rude and insulting to those who believe the concept of original sin.

Also, by including original sin into the debate, you are removing the LEGAL aspects of a death penalty. If you were to say that the death penalty should be thrown out based on this connection with original sin, the laughter in the courtroom would destroy the silence resonating between your ears.

So now it comes down to an introspective discussion to this question..."The religion says one thing, the state says another, which contradicts the religion's stance...Is that acceptable?...

Your answer is "No, YOU are NOT allowed to think that way because your book says so!"...

My reply?..."I'll think for myself, thank you very much....I don't need to you to tell me how."

PS - Notice I have never stated my stance on the issue? I only pointed out the churches teachings on original sin...didn't mention how I felt about abortion once.
 

cnredd

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jallman said:
That was the sound of someone who cannot make an argument at all against what you said. Though it may not be relevant to the whole prolife/prochoice argument, it represents one of the paradoxes of the republican/conservative philosophy. When faced with one, they tend to mutter nonsense until they repress it, thus keeping them always infallible in their minds.
If you'll notice, my "argument" was thrown out 12 minutes after your little broad-brush generalization. I can safely assume that you're smart enough to belive me when I say that my post took longer than 12 minutes to produce?
That should prove that my response was to your earlier post, and not something I quickly came up with in an attempt to prove you wrong.

This part of your sentence...Though it may not be relevant to the whole prolife/prochoice argument...is the thrust of my "stupid" comment. There are reasonable stances on both sides...fu_chicks thread doesn't fall under any of them...

Please take time to read my comments in"Abortion - My take on the abortion issue...Post #129"

You'll see that my personal stance is in direct contrast to my political stance...That pretty much negates your "republican/conservative philosophy"
tripe. Before reading my post, you think I follow the "Conservative pamphlet" to a tee...Afterward, I bet you'll be telling people I should give in my Conservative membership card...Be prepared to feel foolish....

I wouldn't expect anything more...Both sides take an extremely emotional position to the subject, and lash out at anyone who doesn't march with the same step...Your commects prove that...I would hope that, from now on, you do a little more typing from the brain and a little less typing from the heart.

BTW - Look at the responses to my posts....I get "beat up" equally by both sides...
 

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cnredd said:
If you'll notice, my "argument" was thrown out 12 minutes after your little broad-brush generalization. I can safely assume that you're smart enough to belive me when I say that my post took longer than 12 minutes to produce?
That should prove that my response was to your earlier post, and not something I quickly came up with in an attempt to prove you wrong.

This part of your sentence...Though it may not be relevant to the whole prolife/prochoice argument...is the thrust of my "stupid" comment. There are reasonable stances on both sides...fu_chicks thread doesn't fall under any of them...

Please take time to read my comments in"Abortion - My take on the abortion issue...Post #129"

You'll see that my personal stance is in direct contrast to my political stance...That pretty much negates your "republican/conservative philosophy"
tripe. Before reading my post, you think I follow the "Conservative pamphlet" to a tee...Afterward, I bet you'll be telling people I should give in my Conservative membership card...Be prepared to feel foolish....

I wouldn't expect anything more...Both sides take an extremely emotional position to the subject, and lash out at anyone who doesn't march with the same step...Your commects prove that...I would hope that, from now on, you do a little more typing from the brain and a little less typing from the heart.

BTW - Look at the responses to my posts....I get "beat up" equally by both sides...
Wow, you didnt take much time to recover enough to start with the over the top insults to someone's intelligence and the return stereotypes. And most of your previous post was incoherent muttering. And if you take time to read my posts, you'll see that I am far from "the other side". It was a freakin joke, albeit maybe a bad one. But like she said, if you didnt want to read the post, dont. And by the way, before you had a coronary over what I posted, did you ever take the time to think maybe I was making a commentary on the typical conservative reaction rather than a personal attack against you? You must admit...the "stupid" comment without anything to follow was pretty juvenile.
 
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blogger31

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Fu_chick said:
It is fair to say that many of the same Christians who are against abortion are also for the death penalty. The argument is that a fetus is an innocent human life and therefore should not be killed, where as the death row inmate has committed murder therefore deserving death. However, one of the key elements of Christianity is original sin, so if a fetus is a human being, then Christianity itself says that it cannot be innocent-it is born with the human stain. Therefore, IMHO the Christian idea that abortion is the killing of an innocent human life is inherently flawed, as in the eyes of Christianity you are born a sinner. Any thoughts?
My first thought is actually a question which would shed quite a bit of light on this question. Very thought provoking question, even though I find it way out of context. But my question is what is your religion and what are your views on abortion and the death penalty. BTW, I am a Christian against abortion, and against the death penalty.
 

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Cnredd - she didn't say all Christians believe one way or the other, just many. Also, I know a fair bit about Christianity (my younger sister converted), so I know that in the eyes of your God sin is technically irrelevant, so long as you accept Jesus. Wouldn't that kind of cancel out any killing you've done?

Sweet deal, really. Be a Christian, do whatever the Hell you please, and still get into the afterlife, while Gandhi ended up God knows where.

Also, I've heard plenty of Christians say the opposite - that all sin is the same. So which is it?
 

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vergiss said:
Cnredd - she didn't say all Christians believe one way or the other, just many. Also, I know a fair bit about Christianity (my younger sister converted), so I know that in the eyes of your God sin is technically irrelevant, so long as you accept Jesus. Wouldn't that kind of cancel out any killing you've done?

Sweet deal, really. Be a Christian, do whatever the Hell you please, and still get into the afterlife, while Gandhi ended up God knows where.

Also, I've heard plenty of Christians say the opposite - that all sin is the same. So which is it?
To answer your last question, there is no sin greater in God's eyes. A sin is a sin plain and simple. That is why I don't get the whole Christians against gays thing. They are sinners, but no more then a Christian who sins by having anger against gays. God sees those sins all the same, A Sin!!
 

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vergiss said:
Cnredd - she didn't say all Christians believe one way or the other, just many. Also, I know a fair bit about Christianity (my younger sister converted), so I know that in the eyes of your God sin is technically irrelevant, so long as you accept Jesus. Wouldn't that kind of cancel out any killing you've done?

Sweet deal, really. Be a Christian, do whatever the Hell you please, and still get into the afterlife, while Gandhi ended up God knows where.

Also, I've heard plenty of Christians say the opposite - that all sin is the same. So which is it?
Ask your younger sister the difference between venial sin & mortal sin...
 

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:lol: :doh

Thank you, guys, you just proved my point without even realising. Blogger31 says that all sins are equal - and in the next post, cnredd says that the seriousness differs from sin to sin!

I daresay you ought to sort out what God really is saying before you start preaching to anyone else.
 

cnredd

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vergiss said:
:lol: :doh

Thank you, guys, you just proved my point without even realising. Blogger31 says that all sins are equal - and in the next post, cnredd says that the seriousness differs from sin to sin!

I daresay you ought to sort out what God really is saying before you start preaching to anyone else.
So one has to be right...unless there is a "gray area" that I am uninformed of...

Frequently Asked Questions
about
SINS: MORTAL AND VENIAL


http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu06.htm#answer2

Look at Blogger31's sentence...

That is why I don't get the whole Christians against gays thing.

That sounds like it's coming from someone on the outside looking in, doesn't it?

I'm not big on the whole religion thing...I'm 35 and haven't been to a non-wedding or non-funeral mass since high school...

But I do believe in a personal relationship with the Big Dog....People can try to "wiggle" and "squirm" like lawyers to get around certain beliefs and attempt to justify their own actions...But God knows whats up...

That's why I get offended when non-Christians try to use the bible or what another Christian says to prove a point....I have no one to speak for me but myself...and two Christians who differ on philosophy or beliefs IS okay...There doesn't have to be a "groupthink" mentality...
 

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Fu_chick said:
It is fair to say that many of the same Christians who are against abortion are also for the death penalty. The argument is that a fetus is an innocent human life and therefore should not be killed, where as the death row inmate has committed murder therefore deserving death. However, one of the key elements of Christianity is original sin, so if a fetus is a human being, then Christianity itself says that it cannot be innocent-it is born with the human stain. Therefore, IMHO the Christian idea that abortion is the killing of an innocent human life is inherently flawed, as in the eyes of Christianity you are born a sinner. Any thoughts?
Fu
A murderer who gets the death penalty is getting the consequences of his behavior. The baby has done what wrong? Most rational Christians and Jews believe in gradation of sin. Meaning one sin can be more severe than other sin. For example murder is worse than lying. The Jewish people I know believe in gradation of sin. Christianity in most denominations teaches gradation of sin. How was it derived? Jesus said to pilate as he was being sentenced that those who turned him over had the more severe sin as pointed out in the gospel of John. So Jesus showed us that one sin is more severe than another. Should all get the same penalty for all sins death by being ripped apart or cut up?
I am for the death penalty in some cases. There is a study out of now seven different universities dealing with the consequences of the death penalty. Since I went to the University of Colorado in Denver masters program in economics I will point to their study. Yet, all seven studies produced similar results. The death penalty will reduce murder in a given state that has the death penalty by 17%-19%. Which means what. If we have an effective death penalty the number of people being murdered will be reduced by 17%-19%. If I am opposed to the death penalty do I not therefore have some culpability in the murder of innocent people. Have I not in some way cooperated with the murderer by not enforcing the ultimate consequence for his murdering behavior? I use the term innocent to denote innocent of being murdered. They may indeed have sin but I do not think any rational person would say that this person needs to be murdered because they lied to their spouse. For many years those who support the death penalty have said it is a deterant to murder. The seven university studies all showing the same result have indeed shown it is indeed a deterant.
 
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Fu_chick said:
It is fair to say that many of the same Christians who are against abortion are also for the death penalty. The argument is that a fetus is an innocent human life and therefore should not be killed, where as the death row inmate has committed murder therefore deserving death. However, one of the key elements of Christianity is original sin, so if a fetus is a human being, then Christianity itself says that it cannot be innocent-it is born with the human stain. Therefore, IMHO the Christian idea that abortion is the killing of an innocent human life is inherently flawed, as in the eyes of Christianity you are born a sinner. Any thoughts?
Not for the death penalty but thats not what i want to get into. The thing is killing any other human is WRONG be it a baby inside a woman or a cereal killer.
 

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guns_God_glory said:
Not for the death penalty but thats not what i want to get into. The thing is killing any other human is WRONG be it a baby inside a woman or a cereal killer.
Oh no! Not those innnocent corn flakes! How could he?! :2razz:

As I mentioned in another thread - what if someone was attacking you with a knife, and you had a gun? Would fatally shooting him be wrong?
 

Brigand

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Guns_god_glory quotes:

The thing is killing any other human is WRONG be it a baby inside a woman or a cereal[sic] killer.




"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
________

"This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
________

"About the same time I realized that some of the men of Judah had married women from Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. Even worse, half their children spoke in the language of Ashdod or some other people and could not speak the language of Judah at all. So I confronted them and called down curses on them. I beat some of them and pulled out their hair. I made them swear before God that they would not let their children intermarry with the pagan people of the land. "Wasn't this exactly what led King Solomon of Israel into sin?" I demanded. "There was no king from any nation who could compare to him, and God loved him and made him king over all Israel. But even he was led into sin by his foreign wives. How could you even think of committing this sinful deed and acting unfaithfully toward God by marrying foreign women? (Nehemiah 13:23-27 NLT)

________

Do as I say, and not as I do, eh?

Oh, and as for those damn teasing kids..


"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces." (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

A reasonable form of punishment thats should be assimilated into the educational system, don't you think, Guns_god_glory?

I think you ought to be careful, about putting 'guns' before 'god' in your name..you know what a touchy guy god is.. He gets awfully pissed off, about things like that.
 
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vergiss said:
:lol: :doh

Thank you, guys, you just proved my point without even realising. Blogger31 says that all sins are equal - and in the next post, cnredd says that the seriousness differs from sin to sin!

I daresay you ought to sort out what God really is saying before you start preaching to anyone else.
Actually I don't need to sort anything out with anyone, I speak of what is in the Bible, not man made doctrine. Unfortunately many speak of their denominational doctrine before scripture, Catholics are the first that come to mind. Any sin is sin against God and it is all bad.
 

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cnredd said:
So one has to be right...unless there is a "gray area" that I am uninformed of...

Frequently Asked Questions
about
SINS: MORTAL AND VENIAL


http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu06.htm#answer2

Look at Blogger31's sentence...

That is why I don't get the whole Christians against gays thing.

That sounds like it's coming from someone on the outside looking in, doesn't it?

I'm not big on the whole religion thing...I'm 35 and haven't been to a non-wedding or non-funeral mass since high school...

But I do believe in a personal relationship with the Big Dog....People can try to "wiggle" and "squirm" like lawyers to get around certain beliefs and attempt to justify their own actions...But God knows whats up...

That's why I get offended when non-Christians try to use the bible or what another Christian says to prove a point....I have no one to speak for me but myself...and two Christians who differ on philosophy or beliefs IS okay...There doesn't have to be a "groupthink" mentality...
First of all I am hardly on the outside looking in, maybe to some denominations I am, like Catholics, but I am certainly in the body of Christ.

Second, your resource tells me you are Catholic, so what are you taking from scripture, or Catholic doctrine? Don't get me wrong homosexuality is a sin, but unlike the Catholic church I do not feel they should ever be turned away, otherwise all sinners should be turned away, effectively ending any person being allowed in a Catholic church again.
 

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Rather simple. The Bible supports bodily integrity of the woman. Case closed. It is easy to be Christian and pro-choice.
 

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vergiss said:
Sweet deal, really. Be a Christian, do whatever the Hell you please, and still get into the afterlife, while Gandhi ended up God knows where.
What religion are you referring to, because Christianity does not teach this. And what about Gandhi?
 

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Steen:
Look the Apostles wrote against abortion in the Didache when the Church moved from Jerusalem to Antioch. The idea that one can be a Christian while promoting a position directly contrary to what the Apostles wrote is baloney. Yet, I am sure you found some cult leader today that claims to be a Christian and takes the position you advocate. The Books of the Bible as Chesterton stated, a long time ago, are infallible but the books that are in the Bible maybe fallible. Meaning what? Each book of the Bible is infallible. Yet, it is possible that not all books which were written in the first century that should be included in the Bible were included. Since it was not until 325 that the Books of the Bible were established.

Incidentally, for you poorly read protestants and other pretend Christians the Didache also deals with the Mass. As did Justin Martyr in 154. Justin Martyr goes much farther and cites prayers stated in the Mass. Since Polycarp was still alive and studied under the Apostle John it is safe to assume that Justin Martyr's account is accurate. Gosh I wish I was smart enough to make up crap and pretend that I actually followed Christianity. Steen I suggest you learn to read.
Being stupid is not a gift.
 

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mistermain said:
What religion are you referring to, because Christianity does not teach this. And what about Gandhi?
The fundamentalist sort of Christianity that some subscribe to - where it doesn't matter how good or nasty you are in your life, if you believe in Jesus you'll go to Heaven, and everyone else is damned.
 

steen

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ScottMarian said:
Steen:
Look the Apostles wrote against abortion in the Didache
Didache? Where in the Bible is that? Is that part of Jesus' words?
Steen I suggest you learn to read.
Being stupid is not a gift.
:rofl :yawn:
 
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