Abbas: We will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state

[texmaster]

I was thinking maybe instead of wiping out one another they could try... NOT doing that. I know, that may sound crazy to a guy like you...

Honestly, I find it hilarious (and frightening) that there are people like you who can't even think of an option in between the status quo and eliminating one of the two parties.

You really should try reading once in a while. It helps. I'm not the one who refuses to recognize Israel.

 

[texmaster]

Your true colors shine once again... (someone who cannot interpret coherently)

Abbas has no obligation to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Israel can define itself. No other nation should play a part in how one nation defines/describes itself.

What kind of double talk nonsense is that? You are refusing to recognize Israel as a Jewish state then how can you possibly negotiate a peace? You once again prove you don't want peace if that means Israel exists and that is the real honesty about your position.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

BTW aren't most of the zionists on this board against calling Israel a "Jewish state" as well (i.e. a theocracy)?

 

[texmaster]

BTW aren't most of the zionists on this board against calling Israel a "Jewish state" as well (i.e. a theocracy)?

Where do you get that nonscense?

 

[digsbe]

BTW aren't most of the zionists on this board against calling Israel a "Jewish state" as well (i.e. a theocracy)?

A Jewish state does not equal a theocracy. Israel already proclaims themselves to be a Jewish state and Jewish homeland. They extend religious freedoms to every religion and rights to every race. The same can't be said about their neighbors. By zionist do you mean pro-Israeli?

 

[Deuce]

You really should try reading once in a while. It helps. I'm not the one who refuses to recognize Israel.

No, I definitely got that. What I'm saying is you didn't seem to consider alternatives in between Palestine's total destruction of Israel and totally capitulating to Israel.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Well, most zionists would argue that Israel is a democracy or a republic or whatnot, where Jews don't receive special treatment over other religions/ethnicities, so it would make sense from that position that they would also believe that it is not a "Jewish state" (the former is essentially a definition of "Jewish state")...

 

[Degreez]

Yes. It's done man, it's over. They had wars, Israel won. That's reality, you gotta deal with it. Israel exists and have defended that existence. Land changes hands often.

It's a universal human right to be able to move back freely to the place of your birth (Article 13(2) UDHR). These are people who were forcefully evicted from their homes and lost everything they worked for in life. If you are to deny them their human right to return from where they were born, then at least over a solution such as compensation for land and property lost.

If you continue to deny the existence of Israel, there will be no solution to the problem. That too is reality. Thus if they want to do best by their people and provide a lasting peace which can best suit them for their peace and their prosperity; they have to start from Israel exists.

Abbas is not denying the existence of Israel. He has even tried to get a referendum passed (that would bypass the Hamas-led Legislative Council) that recognized Israel's existence. Abbas has no obligation to define Israel's Jewishness. Why should a foreign government be responsible in describing a nation?

 

[texmaster]

No, I definitely got that. What I'm saying is you didn't seem to consider alternatives in between Palestine's total destruction of Israel and totally capitulating to Israel.

Back that nonsense up. Where did I say anywhere that I didn't consider the alternatives?

 

[digsbe]

Well, most zionists would argue that Israel is a democracy or a republic or whatnot, where Jews don't receive special treatment over other religions/ethnicities, so it would make sense from that position that they would also believe that it is not a "Jewish state" (the former is essentially a definition of "Jewish state")...

Is England a Christian theocracy because they have established the Anglican church as the state religion? What about some of the other European democracies that have state churches? Israel is a Jewish state, not a Jewish theocracy. By the way, we are not "Zionist," we are pro-Israel. Don't be intellectually dishonest.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Recognizing Israel as a Jewish State means relinquishing any claim to its lands and any right to reside therein. We can no more expect them to negotiate their own suicide than we can expect Israel to do so. Self-preservation is paramount, and as it stands, their interests are mutually exclusive.

Israel is not their land. It hasn't been for a couple hundred of years at least. Before Israel was a state the land was owned by the British government. They gave up control to the UN, which decided to basically split the area and gave part to Israelies and the other part to Palastinians. And if you want to go farther into history the Jews where there before there was any "Palastinians" there. And before ya try to make a huff about it I put the quotes around "Palastinians" because at the time there was no such thing as a "Palastinian" as there was no Palastine to speak of.

As it stands any sane person would want peace, and only a fool would want to fight. Israel is here to stay...get over it.

 

[ric27]

It's a universal human right to be able to move back freely to the place of your birth (Article 13(2) UDHR). These are people who were forcefully evicted from their homes and lost everything they worked for in life. If you are to deny them their human right to return from where they were born, then at least over a solution such as compensation for land and property lost.

Can't let that bogus post slide....

The establishment of Israel was opposed by the surrounding Muslim nations. Yes, you can say that political control of the area was taken from the inhabitants without their accord, but since they had never had any say in their government, you can also say they didn't lose anything since they'd never had it. They had always been ruled by someone else. But no one had their farm, house, store or any other property taken from them. What did happen is that the surrounding Arab nations told the Muslims in the borders of Israel that they should flee the country until the war (1948) was over and all the Jews had been killed. Then they could move back in and take the Jewish shops, farms, etc. Between WW1 and 1948, Jews had emigrated to "Palestine" and bought land, drained the swamps around Galilee, planted orchards and started to make something of the country. They created wealth and property worth having.

But instead of destroying Israel and killing all the Jews, the Arabs lost. Arabs who stayed in Israel and didn't fight to destroy Israel didn't lose their land, homes, etc. They and their descendants are still there. The population of Israel is not 100% Jewish by any means and contains many, many Muslims. Those who left were not allowed to return and I can't blame Israel for not letting them back in. I wouldn't.

Would you?

 

[Deuce]

Can't let that bogus post slide....

The establishment of Israel was opposed by the surrounding Muslim nations. Yes, you can say that political control of the area was taken from the inhabitants without their accord, but since they had never had any say in their government, you can also say they didn't lose anything since they'd never had it. They had always been ruled by someone else. But no one had their farm, house, store or any other property taken from them. What did happen is that the surrounding Arab nations told the Muslims in the borders of Israel that they should flee the country until the war (1948) was over and all the Jews had been killed. Then they could move back in and take the Jewish shops, farms, etc. Between WW1 and 1948, Jews had emigrated to "Palestine" and bought land, drained the swamps around Galilee, planted orchards and started to make something of the country. They created wealth and property worth having.

But instead of destroying Israel and killing all the Jews, the Arabs lost. Arabs who stayed in Israel and didn't fight to destroy Israel didn't lose their land, homes, etc. They and their descendants are still there. The population of Israel is not 100% Jewish by any means and contains many, many Muslims. Those who left were not allowed to return and I can't blame Israel for not letting them back in. I wouldn't.

Would you?

I'm not sure pointing out that these people were essentially conquered really helps make your case here.

 

[digsbe]

I'm not sure pointing out that these people were essentially conquered really helps make your case here.

The only attempt a conquer was that of the Arab nations wanting to destroy Israel and take the entire land away to be an Arab land. More accurately, there was a failed conquer attempt by the hands of the Arab nations, and many lost their homes because they fled at the request of those Arab nations.

 

[Degreez]

Can't let that bogus post slide....

The establishment of Israel was opposed by the surrounding Muslim nations. Yes, you can say that political control of the area was taken from the inhabitants without their accord, but since they had never had any say in their government, you can also say they didn't lose anything since they'd never had it. They had always been ruled by someone else. But no one had their farm, house, store or any other property taken from them. What did happen is that the surrounding Arab nations told the Muslims in the borders of Israel that they should flee the country until the war (1948) was over and all the Jews had been killed. Then they could move back in and take the Jewish shops, farms, etc. Between WW1 and 1948, Jews had emigrated to "Palestine" and bought land, drained the swamps around Galilee, planted orchards and started to make something of the country. They created wealth and property worth having.

But instead of destroying Israel and killing all the Jews, the Arabs lost. Arabs who stayed in Israel and didn't fight to destroy Israel didn't lose their land, homes, etc. They and their descendants are still there. The population of Israel is not 100% Jewish by any means and contains many, many Muslims. Those who left were not allowed to return and I can't blame Israel for not letting them back in. I wouldn't.

Would you?

The part I made bold is utter bull crap devoid of any relative history:

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to Glazer (1980, p. 111), from 15 May 1948 onwards, expulsion of Palestinians became a regular practice. Avnery (1971), explaining the Zionist rationale, says,

I believe that during this phase, the eviction of Arab civilians had become an aim of David Ben-Gurion and his government …. UN opinion could very well be disregarded. Peace with the Arabs seemed out of the question, considering the extreme nature of the Arab propaganda. In this situation, it was easy for people like Ben-Gurion to believe the capture of uninhabited territory was both necessary for security reasons and desirable for the homogeneity of the new Hebrew state.

Edgar O'Ballance, a military historian, adds,

Israeli vans with loudspeakers drove through the streets ordering all the inhabitants to evacuate immediately, and such as were reluctant to leave were forcibly ejected from their homes by the triumphant Israelis whose policy was now openly one of clearing out all the Arab civil population before them …. From the surrounding villages and hamlets, during the next two or three days, all the inhabitants were uprooted and set off on the road to Ramallah…. No longer was there any "reasonable persuasion". Bluntly, the Arab inhabitants were ejected and forced to flee into Arab territory…. Wherever the Israeli troops advanced into Arab country the Arab population was bulldozed out in front of them.

A report from the military intelligence SHAI of the Haganah entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948", dated 30 June 1948, affirms that:

At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%… of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases…


1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramla began around 12 July 1948, when 50,000–70,000 Palestinian residents fled or were expelled as Israeli troops moved into the towns. Israel's military action occurred within the context of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Both towns, which had been Arab areas in Palestine, became predominantly Jewish areas in the new state of Israel, with Lydda becoming known as Lod.

Between 290–450 Palestinians and around 10 Israeli soldiers were killed during the conquest of Lydda. The death toll in Ramla is unknown, but presumed lower because it surrendered immediately. Once the Israelis were in control, expulsion orders were issued by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). Ramla's residents were bussed out. The people of Lydda were forced to walk 17 kilometers (10 miles) to Barfiliya in temperatures of 30–35 °C (86–95 °F), from where the Arab Legion—Jordan's British-led army—helped them reach a refugee camp in Ramallah. The harsh conditions of the exodus, known as the Lydda death march, caused deaths among the refugees, with figures ranging from a few to 355, mostly from exhaustion and dehydration. Eyewitnesses said people were killed by Israeli soldiers for refusing to part with their valuables.

The Israelis were rounding everyone up and searching us. People were driven from every quarter and subjected to complete and rough body searches. You can’t imagine the savagery with which people were treated. Everything was taken — watches, jewellery, wedding rings, wallets, gold. One young neighbor of ours, a man in his late twenties, not more, Amin Hanhan, had secreted some money in his shirt to care for his family on the journey. The soldier who searched him demanded that he surrender the money and he resisted. He was shot dead in front of us. One of his sisters, a young married woman, also a neighbor of our family, was present: she saw her brother shot dead before her eyes. She was so shocked that, as we made our way toward Birzeit, she died of shock, exposure, and lack of water on the way."

 

[Cold Highway]

**** them both, let them all kill each other. Its time to stop pooling money into the rest of the ****ing world.

 

[Deuce]

**** them both, let them all kill each other. Its time to stop pooling money into the rest of the ****ing world.

Yes, clearly this is the reasonable option.

 

[ric27]

The part I made bold is utter bull crap devoid of any relative history:

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to Glazer (1980, p. 111), from 15 May 1948 onwards, expulsion of Palestinians became a regular practice. Avnery (1971), explaining the Zionist rationale, says,

I believe that during this phase, the eviction of Arab civilians had become an aim of David Ben-Gurion and his government …. UN opinion could very well be disregarded. Peace with the Arabs seemed out of the question, considering the extreme nature of the Arab propaganda. In this situation, it was easy for people like Ben-Gurion to believe the capture of uninhabited territory was both necessary for security reasons and desirable for the homogeneity of the new Hebrew state.

Edgar O'Ballance, a military historian, adds,

Israeli vans with loudspeakers drove through the streets ordering all the inhabitants to evacuate immediately, and such as were reluctant to leave were forcibly ejected from their homes by the triumphant Israelis whose policy was now openly one of clearing out all the Arab civil population before them …. From the surrounding villages and hamlets, during the next two or three days, all the inhabitants were uprooted and set off on the road to Ramallah…. No longer was there any "reasonable persuasion". Bluntly, the Arab inhabitants were ejected and forced to flee into Arab territory…. Wherever the Israeli troops advanced into Arab country the Arab population was bulldozed out in front of them.

A report from the military intelligence SHAI of the Haganah entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948", dated 30 June 1948, affirms that:

At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%… of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases…


1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramla began around 12 July 1948, when 50,000–70,000 Palestinian residents fled or were expelled as Israeli troops moved into the towns. Israel's military action occurred within the context of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Both towns, which had been Arab areas in Palestine, became predominantly Jewish areas in the new state of Israel, with Lydda becoming known as Lod.

Between 290–450 Palestinians and around 10 Israeli soldiers were killed during the conquest of Lydda. The death toll in Ramla is unknown, but presumed lower because it surrendered immediately. Once the Israelis were in control, expulsion orders were issued by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). Ramla's residents were bussed out. The people of Lydda were forced to walk 17 kilometers (10 miles) to Barfiliya in temperatures of 30–35 °C (86–95 °F), from where the Arab Legion—Jordan's British-led army—helped them reach a refugee camp in Ramallah. The harsh conditions of the exodus, known as the Lydda death march, caused deaths among the refugees, with figures ranging from a few to 355, mostly from exhaustion and dehydration. Eyewitnesses said people were killed by Israeli soldiers for refusing to part with their valuables.

The Israelis were rounding everyone up and searching us. People were driven from every quarter and subjected to complete and rough body searches. You can’t imagine the savagery with which people were treated. Everything was taken — watches, jewellery, wedding rings, wallets, gold. One young neighbor of ours, a man in his late twenties, not more, Amin Hanhan, had secreted some money in his shirt to care for his family on the journey. The soldier who searched him demanded that he surrender the money and he resisted. He was shot dead in front of us. One of his sisters, a young married woman, also a neighbor of our family, was present: she saw her brother shot dead before her eyes. She was so shocked that, as we made our way toward Birzeit, she died of shock, exposure, and lack of water on the way."

Will address this "wikipedia" coverage later.....

Just what happened before 1948? *key words bought and buy*

First of all, there has never been a Palestinian state in the past. When the Israelites moved in, the land was Canaan.

When European crusaders captured the area and ruled for several hundred years during the middle ages, but even then, there was STILL NO "Palestinian" state. After the defeat of the crusaders, the area was controlled by the Ottoman empire until their defeat in WWI. "Palestine" didn't have much going for it at that time. The population was scattered and relatively small. They didn't have much agriculture and no oil. Jews from around the world had started emigrating to Palestine before the turn of the century and *BOUGHT* land. They continued to emigrate and *BUY* land during the period between WWI and II. When Turkey was defeated during WWI, they were divested of their Empire and the border moved back to Turkey. The ME, i.e. Syria, "Palestine" and Iraq were controlled and administered by France and Britain. Plans were being formed to create a "Jewish" state before WWII and continued after the war. There was never any intent to dispossess anyone of the land they held. The purpose was to establish borders, allow Jews to emigrate freely and to establish a political government. The "Palestinian" area was divided into Israel, to be led politically by Jews, and Trans-Jordan, a Muslim led nation.

 

[Deuce]

The only attempt a conquer was that of the Arab nations wanting to destroy Israel and take the entire land away to be an Arab land. More accurately, there was a failed conquer attempt by the hands of the Arab nations, and many lost their homes because they fled at the request of those Arab nations.

I meant before that. When European colonialism carved up this region and doled it out without much attention paid to the people already living there.

 

[digsbe]

I meant before that. When European colonialism carved up this region and doled it out without much attention paid to the people already living there.

And before that it was Turkish imperialism, and before that it was taken by Muslims. Jews had it, Romans took it, Byzantines took it, Muslims took it, Ottomans took it, And then Britain took it. Later it was given to the UN, and the UN partitioned it.

 

[Cold Highway]

Yes, clearly this is the reasonable option.

Im tired as a US citizen that my tax dollars being used as global welfare and getting involved in everyone else's affairs. Im a huge supported of Fortress America, let others fix their own problems.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Israel is not their land. It hasn't been for a couple hundred of years at least. Before Israel was a state the land was owned by the British government.

And who do you suppose lived on that supposedly British land? What gave the British the right to parcel it up and hand it off to the UN in the first place?

And if you want to go farther into history the Jews where there before there was any "Palastinians" there. And before ya try to make a huff about it I put the quotes around "Palastinians" because at the time there was no such thing as a "Palastinian" as there was no Palastine to speak of.

The ancestors of the modern Palestinians are written of in the Old Testament of the Bible. You can use all the sardonic punctuation you want, but the Palestinian people are real, they exist, and they are fighting for their ability to reside upon and govern their own ancestral homeland.

As it stands any sane person would want peace, and only a fool would want to fight.

Then it would appear that both nations are overrun with maniacs and fools, because neither side of the war is behaving as though they actually expect or desire peace.

Israel is here to stay...get over it.

You say this as if I would have some objection to it. I like Israel. I like Israel better than Palestine. I support Israel's foreign policy and the fashion in which they are prosecuting their war against the Palestinian people, and I want Israel to win that war. I just think it's goddamned foolish for someone, no matter how pro-Israeli, to expect the Palestinian government to cut their own throats-- which is exactly what acknowledging Israel as a Jewish State and Jewish homeland will do. They are not puppets to be controlled by our wishful thinking; they have their own national interests to consider, including the ability to live on the land they consider their home. I'm not saying that they have the right to live there, or that the Israelis should allow them to live there, but at some point you have to look at this issue from their point of view.

Two nations cannot share one homeland. There will be war between Israel and Palestine as long as there are Israelis and Palestinians. All this empty, pointless, and misguided "peace process" is doing is delaying the inevitable.

 

[donsutherland1]

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas told interviewers that he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, Israel Radio reported on Tuesday.Abbas reportedly said that his position is no different from those Arafat present in previous negotiations, and that his staff is the same as Arafat's.

He also hinted that the PA may fall apart if there is no hope for a solution in the near future. He then repeated that the PA will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Abbas: We will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state

What a shock the Palestinians are unwilling to negotiate.......again

IMO, there are ways to finesse that issue. President Abbas could enter into a treaty that the conflict is fully and finally settled, which would terminate any perceived claims/aspirations the Palestinians might have on Israeli territory. Substantively, the big stumbling block remains the Palestinians' demand that Israel recognize a "right" of return of Palestinian refugees and their descendants to Israel. Israel cannot do so, as such recognition would create legal claims and pose an existential threat to Israel's existence as a Jewish state. That issue, too, could be finessed if the Palestinians agree that there is a a "right" of return, but only to the region in general, but in particular the "right" only extends to the territories that will comprise the new Palestinian state, not Israel. To date, the Palestinian leadership has been intransigent on that issue. Unless the Palestinian leadership shows reasonable flexibility on that issue, there will be no peace agreement.

 

[Apocalypse]

BTW aren't most of the zionists on this board against calling Israel a "Jewish state" as well (i.e. a theocracy)?

Jewish as in the homeland of the Jewish nation.
Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people.
Not Jewish as in Judaism, Jewish as in the Jewish people, an ethnoreligious group existing for well over 3000 years.

 

[PeteEU]

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas told interviewers that he would not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, Israel Radio reported on Tuesday.Abbas reportedly said that his position is no different from those Arafat present in previous negotiations, and that his staff is the same as Arafat's.

He also hinted that the PA may fall apart if there is no hope for a solution in the near future. He then repeated that the PA will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Abbas: We will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state

What a shock the Palestinians are unwilling to negotiate.......again

Gezz, with people like you and that newspaper, then there is no hope for peace. Talk about propaganda and lies. Ever heard of fact checking?

First off, the only thing Abbas said was that the had the same position as Arafat.. and guess what, Arafat and the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist over a decade ago.

Arafat recognises Jewish state and limit to return of refugees | World news | The Guardian

The PLO accepted Israel's right to exist in 1988 and that was confirmed in 1993 when Israel recognized the PLO at the Oslo accords..

Israel-PLO Recognition

So if Abbas has the same opinion as Arafat, then guess what.. GOOD, because Arafat accepted Israel's right to exist.. how can that hurt the peace accords?