Abbas Threatens to Resign

[Mika-El]

Finally Degreez you asked me and I quote your queston:

"Where did equate Israel with Nazi Germany? If you are purposefully going to misinterpret my posts, you're better off not posting at all. Red herring arguments will get you no where."

The words I read from you in a previous post stated:

"is something illegal about transfering your civilian population on occupied territory. You seem to ignore that. There is something illegal about forcefully evicting people based on their race on occupied territory. You seem to ignore that. "

You also stated in a further response to me:

"There is no precedent. Unless you count the precedent of occupation. Like the occupation of Poland by Nazi Germany."


Those are your words not mine.

I understood the above words to suggest you were equating the occupation of the West Bank by Israel as no different than the occupation of Poland by Germany.

I also interpreted your suggestion that Palestinians are a race and Israel is engaged in a conflict with Palestinians simply because of their race to suggest they were no different than Nazis were.

I would also suggest there is NO race of Palestinians or Jews. Both may be semitic peoples but the notion of race has been proven a fallacy. What used to be deemed race, i.e., caucasian, negroid and mongoloid have now been proven to be fallacies. We are all mixed. There is no one one race biologically.

Traits such as hair texture, skin colour, nose shape, have all been proven to be meaningless in terms of the genetic traits we share in common even when our skin pigment or hair texture or lip size or nose shape is different.

In fact both Palestinians and Jews are mixed semitic peoples.

The dispute between Israel and Arab nations and today's self-proclaimed Palestinians is not based on race. It can often take on religious content as fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Jews may choose to quote the Koran and Bible to justify their extremism but for the most part it is not a race war or even just a religious war but is in fact a tribal war created by the British, French and later Germans by coming into the area and deliberately inciting conflict between tribes so that France, Britain, Germany, and then later Russia, China, the U.S. , the European Union could all justify their presence and influence.

If there was no oil in the Middle East no one would have given a flying you know what about Jews or Arabs and interfered.

Its a tribal war not a race war. It is a tribal war that is the direct result of colonial manipulation and interference in an attempt to control oil supplies.

It remains as such. Only now we have the former colonies as oil clients.

 

[justabubba]

how is it an attempt at distraction exactly? Seems to me more like he is exploring the arguments trotted out as distractions by the anti-Israel side.

With respect to the topic at hand, Abbas is following his script, pursuing his rejectionist objectives and playing a spoiled little brat having a temper tantrum, always wanting more, never willing to give anything himself or take responsibility for his actions.

On topic enough?

look for yourself within the posts i pointed out; show us where he posted relating to the following topic:

Abbas Threatens to Resign

i look forward to your response with direct quotes from those posts showing where he responded to the thread topic
you won't find any. which is why i recognized and called out the repeated attempts to deflect from the topic at hand

 

[Demon of Light]

This is the key to understanding the whole issue as far as I'm concerned, as those who only represent a one-sided population transfer are simply too dishonest in their agenda to acknowledge the facts of the situation.

The problem is the Arab League never ordered the expulsions of Jews. In fact, they explicitly ordered that Jews be prevented for leaving Arab states because they did not want to increase the Jewish population of Israel. It took decades of international pressure before Syria finally relented and allowed the remainder of its Jewish population that had not managed to get out of the country to leave in the 90's.

There were groups in Israel concerned about a sudden influx of Jews from the Arab countries, but even then they and Zionist organizations happily assisted in moving a large portion of the Jewish population in the Arab World to Israel. It should also be understood that many Jews wanted to go live in Israel and so in many cases it was completely voluntary. Measures involving the seizure of Jewish assets was partly about preventing them from leaving and partly to insure that if they did leave it would not mean a sudden loss of wealth for the Arab countries.

Egypt was the only country I can recall that actually expelled the Jewish population and that was only after the Lavon Affair, where Egyptian Jews were used to carry out false flag terror attacks in the country, and the invasion of the Suez in 1956.

you won't find any. which is why i recognized and called out the repeated attempts to deflect from the topic at hand

The worse part is he is doing it with completely fictional statements about Jordan having a law of return for Palestinians (pure fiction) and Jordan planning an invasion of Israel as the cause of the Six-Day War (a claim so full of **** it is laughable).

 

[Degreez]

Finally Degreez you asked me and I quote your queston:

"Where did equate Israel with Nazi Germany? If you are purposefully going to misinterpret my posts, you're better off not posting at all. Red herring arguments will get you no where."

The words I read from you in a previous post stated:

"is something illegal about transfering your civilian population on occupied territory. You seem to ignore that. There is something illegal about forcefully evicting people based on their race on occupied territory. You seem to ignore that. "

You also stated in a further response to me:

"There is no precedent. Unless you count the precedent of occupation. Like the occupation of Poland by Nazi Germany."


Those are your words not mine.

I understood the above words to suggest you were equating the occupation of the West Bank by Israel as no different than the occupation of Poland by Germany.

So then it's only your own misunderstanding. There have been numerous occasions where nations have occupied territory that is not part of its sovereignty. Nazi Germany occupied numerous territories outside of its sovereignty. The Western Sahara is occupied by Morocco. Cyprus is technically occupied by Turkey. These are all nations that have extended their boundaries.

I also interpreted your suggestion that Palestinians are a race and Israel is engaged in a conflict with Palestinians simply because of their race to suggest they were no different than Nazis were.

Where did I ever suggest the Palestinians are a race? Once again you misinterpret posts so that you can dismiss arguments that you created in the first place.

I would also suggest there is NO race of Palestinians or Jews. Both may be semitic peoples but the notion of race has been proven a fallacy. What used to be deemed race, i.e., caucasian, negroid and mongoloid have now been proven to be fallacies. We are all mixed. There is no one one race biologically.

Palestinian is a nationality. No one has implied the Palestinians were a race.

 

[Mika-El]

1-So then it's only your own misunderstanding. There have been numerous occasions where nations have occupied territory that is not part of its sovereignty. Nazi Germany occupied numerous territories outside of its sovereignty. The Western Sahara is occupied by Morocco. Cyprus is technically occupied by Turkey. These are all nations that have extended their boundaries.

2-Where did I ever suggest the Palestinians are a race? Once again you misinterpret posts so that you can dismiss arguments that you created in the first place. Palestinian is a nationality. No one has implied the Palestinians were a race.

In regards to 1, -No what I have said is you compared the reason Israeli went on to the West Bank as equivalent to Germany invading Poland with these words:

"There is no precedent. Unless you count the precedent of occupation. Like the occupation of Poland by Nazi Germany."

The above words clearly indicate you equivalated Israel's entering the West Bank with Germany's invasion of Poland therefore your claim I have misunderstood your words is absurd these words peak for themselves no matter how you now try to suggest you did not state them.

In regards to 2-you engage in the same tactic as 1 and I do not find you asking me where you brought up race as a sincere question. You clearly stated:

"There is something illegal about forcefully evicting people based on their race on occupied territory. You seem to ignore that. "

No you now seem to want to ignore that. You clearly in the above words equated Israel with Nazi Germany and stated Israeli is evicting Palestinians based on their "race". Based on those two comparisons I challenged you.

 

[Mika-El]

look for yourself within the posts i pointed out; show us where he posted relating to the following topic:
i look forward to your response with direct quotes from those posts showing where he responded to the thread topic
you won't find any. which is why i recognized and called out the repeated attempts to deflect from the topic at hand

I will say it one last time and no more. The remarks I raised are in direct response to the issues you and Degreez first raised.

 

[Mika-El]

In regards to degreez attempt to suggest Palestinians did not have a law of return that allowed them to become full citizens of Jordan and accuse me of making it up, I can only say its easier to dismiss something then take the time to research it.

I have deliberately quoted a Jordanian journalist so Degreez can not say I am quoting a Zionist:

I refer to the following words which are taken from the following article:

Jordan defense: preserving Palestinian identity which can be found at:

Jordan defense: preserving Palestinian identity. - Free Online Library

Kallab, a former minister of information, pointed to the integral relationship that existed between Palestinians and Jordanians even before the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, and which continued afterwards when the West Bank was annexed by Jordan and after it was captured by Israel in 1967. "A large number of senior public posts and others, all the way down from the premiership to heads of public schools were held by our Palestinian brothers," he said in a takeout on August 12.

No Distinction

"In fact, there was no distinction or differentiation whatsoever between Jordanians and Palestinians, despite political polarizations and struggle between the rival camps (West and East Banks) that marked the fifties and sixties of the last century," Kallab added, noting that all Jordanian prime ministers without exception were of Palestinian origin until 1955, when the Transjordanian Hazza' Majali came to power. "Obviously many colleagues, even those writing for highly respected publications, were not aware of these facts when they aimed their arrows against the Jordanian authorities," Kallab said.

It appears also that it is not common knowledge that all Palestinians, regardless of which part of Palestine they came from, who had chosen to take refuge in Jordan following the "Naqba," ("catastrophe") were granted Jordanian citizenship and equal civil rights as the "true Jordanians," Kallab added. He explained that Palestinians could reach the highest-ranking positions in the state, enroll in the armed and security forces, buy property, have access to education and contribute largely in the economic development of the desert kingdom. "All these rights and facilities were granted to Palestinians in Jordan even before the annexation of the West Bank, when other Arab countries hosting refugees segregated them inside camps, imposing restrictions on their movement," Kallab said.

It is no secret that Palestinian refugees outside Jordan have been and still are treated in a discriminatory way, were prevented from integrating into the societies of the countries they fled to, like in Lebanon and Iraq, and were issued documents which did not allow them to travel abroad. "All these restrictions were taken under the pretext of upholding Palestinians' right to return to their homeland, while in Jordan they enjoyed all national rights," Kallab added.

 

[Mika-El]

Kallab a pro Jordanian government further stated after Jordan rescinded the automatic law of return for Palestinians the following:

"He contended that the distinction between "real Jordanians" and those of Palestinian origin started in 1974 at the Arab summit in Rabat Rabat (räbät`), city (1994 pop. 787,745), capital of Morocco, on the Atlantic Ocean at the mouth of the Bou Regreg estuary, opposite Salé. and at the request of the Palestine Liberation OrganizationPalestine Liberation Organization (PLO), coordinating council for Palestinian organizations, founded (1964) by Egypt and the Arab League and initially controlled by Egypt.
..... Click the link for more information. (PLO PLO
abbr.
Palestine Liberation Organization


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLO Palestine Liberation Organization

Noun 1. PLO ) and the Arab world to consolidate the status of the PLO as the sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people For other uses of "Palestinian", see Definitions of Palestine and Palestinian.

Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني, .

Jordan's total disengagement disengagement /dis·en·gage·ment/ (dis?en-gaj´ment) emergence of the fetus from the vaginal canal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dis·en·gage·ment
n. from the Palestinians came in 1988 when the late King Hussein Noun 1. King Hussein - king of Jordan credited with creating stability at home and seeking peace with Israel (1935-1999)
ibn Talal Hussein, Husain, Husayn, Hussein cut off his country's administrative and legal ties with the West Bank, handing over control of the area to the PLO. Nevertheless, Jordan has continued to provide financial support to the West Bank as well as keeping up its policy, initiated in 1954, of providing Jordanian passports to all citizens of the West Bank as well as refugees from the 1948 war, on condition that they hold an Israeli document for "family reunion Often an annual event, a family reunion takes place on a specified day each year for the purpose of keeping an extended family closer together. Some reunions may be held less often. " which allows them to go back to their home.

Clarification

The newly-introduced measures are not aimed at squeezing out the Palestinians from Jordan as much as they are meant to clarify everybody's true identity, basically to demarcate de·mar·cate
tr.v. de·mar·cat·ed, de·mar·cat·ing, de·mar·cates
1. To set the boundaries of; delimit.

2. To separate clearly as if by boundaries; distinguish: demarcate categories. between those hailing from the West Bank and East Bank. The Jordanian authorities stress that the objective is to ensure that those of Palestinian origin have the right to return to their homeland and to uphold the disengagement process from the West Bank's administration. "All this uproar was triggered for political ends which only serve Israeli plans and the conspiracy of the alternative state for the Palestinians in Jordan," Kallab charged. By pressing the Palestinians to renew permits that recognize them as citizens in the West Bank, Jordan did not mean to expel them but to fend off any Israeli attempt to remove the Palestinians from their territory or prevent them from returning to their original home, the writer argued.

Jordanian fears escalated after Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rose to power earlier this year that he and his Foreign Minister Avigdor LiebermanAvigdor Lieberman (Hebrew: אביגדור ליברמן‎), also Liberman
..... Click the link for more information. are secretly working toward turning Jordan into a Palestinian state The Palestinian state (Arabic (دولة فلسطين) is a proposed country. The proposed location includes the Gaza Strip and the autonomously controlled areas of the West Bank, currently controlled by the Palestinian National . Also, holding green ID cards instead of yellow ID cards has no great difference except that the latter have the right to return to their homeland in Palestine, but do not have the right to possess a Jordanian national number, even though they hold Jordanian passports, Kallab said.

The measures would undoubtedly upset the demographic balance of the country, where it is estimated that over 60 percent of the population is of Palestinian origin, and render Jordanians from the eastern bank of the river a minority in the country. However, it is clear that Jordan is concerned about maintaining its national identity as well as preserving the Palestinians' identity.

 

[Mika-El]

I further want to address this comment by Degreez claiming I made up that Jordan had a law of return for Palestinians.

I refer to these self explanatory words from Human Rights Watch (which if anything has admitted to being anti Israeli in past investigations it conducted regarding Israel):

Jordanian law
Nationality law
Jordan's constitution, in article 5, mandates that nationality be defined by law.[40] Since independence in 1946, Jordan has passed laws to regulate acquisition and loss of its nationality. The 1954 Law on Nationality, amended several times through 1987, grants nationality to all persons born of a Jordanian father and to all persons born of a Jordanian mother and a stateless father. A child whose father acquires non-Jordanian nationality remains Jordanian under the law.[41] It is therefore a violation of domestic law for Jordan to withdraw Jordanian nationality from the children in consequence of withdrawing it from their Palestinian-origin father.
The law gives nationality to all Palestinians resident in Jordan between December 20, 1949, and the issuance of the law in 1954, as long as they were not Jewish[42] (the law superseded a 1928 Law on Nationality, which had been amended effective from December 20, 1949, to include Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem[43]). As noted above, Jordan extended its sovereignty, and consequently all applicable domestic law, to the West Bank and East Jerusalem in April 1950.
Jordan's law prescribes narrow circumstances for losing one's nationality. Entering the "service of an enemy state," or the "military," or "civil service of a foreign state" are grounds for revoking nationality. However, in the case of foreign military and civil service, Jordan must give the person concerned warning to leave the other state's service and he or she must have refused to do so before losing Jordanian nationality.
1988 disengagement
In his speech on July 31, 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of Jordan's administrative and legal ties to the West Bank, relinquishing claims to Jordanian sovereignty there. Jordan has not passed any law on the details of the disengagement.[44]
Two days before the king's disengagement speech, the Ministry of Interior had issued disengagement instructions comprising 22 articles. Article 2 of the instructions provides for withdrawal of Jordanian nationality from residents of the West Bank: "Every person residing in the West Bank before the date of 31/7/1988 will be considered as [a] Palestinian citizen and not as Jordanian."[45] In his speech King Hussein stressed that disengagement "naturally do[es] not relate in any way to the Jordanian citizens of Palestinian origin in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. They have the full rights of citizenship and all its obligations...

 

[Mika-El]

I now directly challenging the following statement from Degreez and state for someone who has accused me of fabricating things he did not quote a reference for this comment:

"The problem is the Arab League never ordered the expulsions of Jews. In fact, they explicitly ordered that Jews be prevented for leaving Arab states because they did not want to increase the Jewish population of Israel."

In support of my contention the Arab League and its member nations deliberately expelled Jews from its countries in direct retaliation for Israel being created I first refer you to this article which makes it clear his further remarks that stated:

"Egypt was the only country I can recall that actually expelled the Jewish population:"is absurd. Either that or Degreez has a selective memory or chooses not to recall.

Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries :: Middle East Quarterly

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/jewref.html

http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

http://www.jcpa.org/jpsr/jpsr-beker-f05.htm

http://www.americansephardifederation.org/sub/sources/jewish_refugees.asp

 

[Degreez]

In regards to 1, -No what I have said is you compared the reason Israeli went on to the West Bank as equivalent to Germany invading Poland with these words:

"There is no precedent. Unless you count the precedent of occupation. Like the occupation of Poland by Nazi Germany."

The above words clearly indicate you equivalated Israel's entering the West Bank with Germany's invasion of Poland therefore your claim I have misunderstood your words is absurd these words peak for themselves no matter how you now try to suggest you did not state them.

The above words stating the what an occupation is, because you have posted statements completely ignorant on what constitutes occupation. Nazi Germany's numerous occupations are historical precedents of occupation. Denying this is denying history.

I never said Israel went into the West Bank for the same reason Nazi Germany invaded Poland. If you believe I did, quote where I said that. The only one drawing moral equivalencies here is you, and only to misrepresent my posts. It is childish and elementary.

In regards to 2-you engage in the same tactic as 1 and I do not find you asking me where you brought up race as a sincere question. You clearly stated:

"There is something illegal about forcefully evicting people based on their race on occupied territory. You seem to ignore that. "

Yes, based on their race. Every single person who was forcefully evicted was a non-Jew. They did not belong to the Jewish ethnicity. This is very simple, yet it's taken you over 5 posts to understand this. And then you play semantic games to avoid the real arguments. Israel DID evict people because they were not Jewish, looting, killing, and according to some accounts, raping individuals before sending them away.

 

[Degreez]

I now directly challenging the following statement from Degreez and state for someone who has accused me of fabricating things he did not quote a reference for this comment:

"The problem is the Arab League never ordered the expulsions of Jews. In fact, they explicitly ordered that Jews be prevented for leaving Arab states because they did not want to increase the Jewish population of Israel."

In support of my contention the Arab League and its member nations deliberately expelled Jews from its countries in direct retaliation for Israel being created I first refer you to this article which makes it clear his further remarks that stated:

"Egypt was the only country I can recall that actually expelled the Jewish population:"is absurd. Either that or Degreez has a selective memory or chooses not to recall.

Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries :: Middle East Quarterly

Jewish Refugees from Arab Countries

Jewish exodus from Arab lands

The Forgotten Narrative: Jewish Refugees from Arab Countries - Avi Beker

American Sephardi Federation > Sources > Jewish Refugees from Arab Countries

I believe you mean Demon of Light.

 

[Mika-El]

Now I also ask demon of light or DEGREEZ to provide the source for this following opinion:

"Measures involving the seizure of Jewish assets was partly about preventing them from leaving and partly to insure that if they did leave it would not mean a sudden loss of wealth for the Arab countries.".

Sudden loss of wealth from Arab countries? That is the rationalization for confisacting property from Jews? That is supposed to be a reasonable form of conduct?

No I respectfully contend this evidences an anti-Israel revisionist approach to the conflict which attempts to selectively ignore what happened to Jews in the Arab League nations or the fact the Arab League's representative 5 days before the Arab League declared a war to remove Palestine of Jews warned Jews in the Arab League nations would be the subject of violent attacks. It attempts to ignore the numerous speeches calling on Arabs in the Arab League of Nations to attack Jews and state sanctioned persecution.

The above attempt to justify it as saying these governments were trying to protect their wealth speaks for itself in its transparency.

Here are some more references in direct response to the comments about the Arab League not ordering any expulsions:

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees4.htm

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48914692.html

 

[Mika-El]

Lest anyone try label what I am contending as Zionist propoganda I refer to the following person's approach which is the one I have consistently taken on this forum saying BOTH Jews and Palestinians were made refugees as a result of the Israeli Palestinian conflict and both are equally entitled to compensation.

Unlike some, I would concede the criticisms of the following writer in his comments:

THE FORGOTTEN REFUGEES: the causes of the post-1948 Jewish Exodus from Arab Countries By Philip Mendes

THE FORGOTTEN REFUGEES: the causes of the post-1948 Jewish Exodus from Arab Countries By Philip Mendes


I would concede for the sake of a peaceful resolution these words by him:

"This analysis demonstrates that the two exoduses(Palestinian displacement, Jewish displacement) are not identical in motivation and cause, and should be considered separately.

On the one hand, Arab denial of the contribution made by anti-Jewish hostility to the Jewish exodus from Iraq and elsewhere is insensitive and ahistorical. Jewish refugees from Arab lands should be entitled to some form of compensation for abandoned lands and property. There is no reason why organizations such as the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) should not be formally represented in negotiations between Israel and the Arab states (Goldberg 1999; Khalidi 1999:235).

On the other hand, it is equally insensitive for Israel to use the experience of the Jewish refugees as a justification for its treatment of the Palestinian refugees. The latter group also have a justifiable claim for financial compensation."

I agree with Mendes because what has happened over the years is anti-Israeli/anti Zionists completely ignore the plight of Jewish refugees and so does Mr. Abbas in negotiations and if a fair peace process is to take place compensation for these refugees who now live in Israel must be recognized because the UN ignored these people.

On the other hand we Zionists have to understand as well, that we must practice what we preach and understand we must be sensitive to the displacement of Palestinians just as we want people to be sensitive to our displacement.

I myself do not like the arguements both sides make that two wrongs make a right, i.e., they screwed us so we screw them.

In an open and comprehensive dialogue for peace selective bias for what happened in history must be avoided and we must take care to restate history so as to not allow certain people to exploit it politically to propogate only their perspective of an arguement.

Unlike MAYBE dEMON OR Degreez I acknowledge the Palestinian situation and say they have equal rights to Israelis. In reverse he can not and will not but instead chooses to argue I make things up such as the Jordanian law of return or attempts to suggest I am off topic because I deliberately respond in full to each and every one of his contentions.

 

[Mika-El]

i believe you mean demon of light.

yes i do i profusely apologize for comments attributed to you when i meant to respond to demon light. Sorry about that genuinely. I am debating the words and i mixed up the person who said them and that is unfair to you.

I sincerely apologize. Also I mean to only debate the words not the person-just the words. I am only debating the positions presented. Nothing else.

I do not expect you to agree with me nor do I intend to insult you for disagreeing with me. I am just trying to debate in good faith to try explain a middle compromise position I would personally want Israel and Palestine to arrive at not to advance any hatred against Palestinians or the Arab League. The past is the past.

People on both sides did violent and regrettable things. We need to move on to the present and future and find a way to acknowledge both Palestinians and Israelis as equal partners without demonizing either.

That is all I mean. I debate you hard but not to insult.

 

[Mika-El]

I went back and edited as much as I could degreez. sorry again.

 

[Demon of Light]

In regards to degreez attempt to suggest Palestinians did not have a law of return that allowed them to become full citizens of Jordan and accuse me of making it up, I can only say its easier to dismiss something then take the time to research it.

I looked at what you posted and I see nothing even remotely suggesting a law of return for Palestinians. Rather the situation is just as I described it. Jordan has been one of the few Arab countries to give Palestinians citizenship and the rights that come with it. Nothing you described even resembles a law of return. To be clear the law of return means people who are outside the country that are not already citizens can become citizens by right of their ancestry.

In support of my contention the Arab League and its member nations deliberately expelled Jews from its countries in direct retaliation for Israel being created I first refer you to this article which makes it clear his further remarks that stated:

I find it funny how people on the pro-Israeli side rant about how the "pro-Palestinian" side is always citing anti-Israeli sites, even when some of us never cite them, but think there is no hypocrisy in using Zionist or Israeli sources. If you look at the situation with Iraq it is clear that your sources are distorting what happened. Jews were never deprived of their Iraqi nationality. Rather Iraq demanded that Jews wishing to emigrate must give up their citizenship and ultimately their property. That was explicitly about providing a disincentive for emigration and, failing that, at least preserve some of the economic vitality the Iraqi Jews brought their country.

With the other countries they basically claim Jews were forced out without providing any evidence. It is hilarious to see how they stretch the truth in some of these cases. An Egyptian diplomat saying a partition of Palestine could create ethnic tensions is declared a threat, despite it just being good sense. Many of the operations that brought Jews from Arab countries to Israel required Jews to be smuggled because the Arab nations barred them from emigrating.

Jews began leaving the Arab countries for Israel right after independence in 1948 and many in some of these countries left while the countries were still under the control of a European power.

People want to cite the final figure for how many left and ignore the real circumstances because it allows them to downplay the situation of the Palestinians.

 

[Mika-El]

1-I looked at what you posted and I see nothing even remotely suggesting a law of return for Palestinians.

2-hypocrisy in using Zionist or Israeli sources....your sources are distorting what happened. Jews were never deprived of their Iraqi nationality.

3-People want to cite the final figure for how many left and ignore the real circumstances because it allows them to downplay the situation of the Palestinians.

In regards to 1, the law of return for Palestinians which you choose to ignore when it has been show to you guaranteed that any person claiming to be Palestinian would automatically be granted Jordanian citizenship. You can try re-spin that not to be a law of return but it is. It automatically granted citizenship to Palestinians as Jordanians while prohibiting Jewish Palestinians from such a right. That is a fact. You choose to ignore it not because it did not exist but because your political agenda chooses to ignore Jordan deemed itself a state for Palestinians.

The fact is Britain carved Jordan illegally out of the area designated for a Jewish state, then granted citizenship to all Palestinians in that nation under the name Jordan while excluding Jews. It was only AFTER the unsuccessful Black Sabbath uprising in Jordan where Arafat tried to kill King Hussein and seize Jordan, that Palestinians loyal to Arafat were expelled and he started talking of Palestinians as distinct nationals. Until then he and all other Palestinians claimed the word Palestine was a Zionist invention. You can try re-write history to selectively back up your agenda but anyone can trace it back and see when Arafat changed his terms of reference after the Black Sabbath uprising. The speeches on record from Palestinian leaders of the PLO and Arab League ridiculing the notion of a Palestinian nationality and statehood are public domain. Pretending they are not there won't make them go away.

In regards to 2, no it does not work that way. The moment you do not disagree with something, calling it Zionist and then automatically infer because its Zionist it has no credibility is b.s. We all know that tactic. It avoids having to address the issues raised with a substantial counter arguement. It enables you to name call and stop right there with no arguement, and no basis to repudiate what has been presented to you other then name calling.

In fact I went out of my way to cite many sources that are not Zionist but Jordanian or non Zionist deliberately because I have seen you and others engage in the Zionist name calling exercise in past posts to avoid having to debate the issues raised. Either provide credible sources to repudiate what I said or get off the name calling. All name calling does is evidence you have no substantial arguement.

In regards to 3, you can attempt once again to respin the forced expulsion of 900,000 Jews from the Arab League of Nations, but history speaks for itself. Trying to re-spin history to revise it to suggest these Jews were not forcefully expelled and factor into the equation of compensation and displacement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict again merely evidences your selective bias and agenda to only consider Palestinian grievances of displacement or Palestinian issues.

Unlike you I choose to acknowledge the grievances of both sides equally. Unlike you I did not use the references I provided to negate any Palestinian rights to a second nation or the right to peace. You in reverse do and that is the crucial difference in our poisitions-I see both Palestinians and Israelis as equally aggrieved and entitled to compensation-you choose only to see the interests of Palestinians and will go so far as to try re-write history to selectively deny any facts that do not suit your political agenda.

I challenge you to stop trying to pretend Jews were not expelled from the Arab League of nations in direct retaliation for the creation of the State of Israel establishing the continued precedent that remains today, that Jews around the world will be targets of reprisals and attacks for the perceived actions of the state of Israel.

The forced expulsion of Jews from the Arab world vividly manifests why for some of us when we hear Arab leaders saying its not Jews they have problems with just Zionist Jews we say this ignores the very actions of their countries and the very act of alleged intellects, terrorists, politicians, journalists, and people on the street throughout the Middle East who engage in anti-semitic references to all Jews when criticizing Israel.

The hippocracy of the Iranian leader denying the holocaust while courting ultra-orthodox Jews who do not believe in the state of Israel attests to the length of contradictions and absurdity fundamentalist extremists will engage in whether they might be Muslim or Jewish which add to the complex maze of obstacles facing any person attempting to seek peace in the Middle East.

Extremist fundamentalists whether they be Jewish, Muslim, Christian add fuel to the fire and render discussions irrational.

To have ultra-orthodox Jews come to Tehran to kiss the Iranian leader's face while he welcomes white supremacist neo Nazi holocaust deniers to a pseuto intellectual conference to deny the holocaust speaks for itself.

Mr. Abbas who is portrayed as a moderate wrote his alleged graduate thesis on denying the holocaust. The line between attacking and bring disrepute to all Jews when criticizing Israel's existence is most often crossed and blurred.

In your case you deliberately choose to ignore the anti-semitic attacks on Jews in the Arab League nations which turned them into scapegoats for the creation of the state of Israeli precisely because Arab politicians showed their hatred of Jews in general by using the Israeli creation as A PRETENSE from which to rationalize its attacks against Jews and Arab league politicians openly stated they would attack all Jewsin the Middle East as retaliation for Zionists creating a Jewish state. One of its principle leaders openly stated so to the UN five days before the Arab League delcared war on all Jews of the Middle East not just the ones in the area then known as Palestine.

Go back and read the father of the Palestinian national movements speeches from his guest house in Berlin where he sat out the war as a distinguished guest of Hitler. You think the Mufti's calls to exterminating Jews was directed just at Zionists? Is that the spin you want to pretend? You want to pretend Arafat was not his nephew who picked up where he left off? You want to pretend Hamas and Hezbollah and the hundreds of anti-Israel terror cells don't use the Hitler salute, goosestep and read Mein Kampf and call Hitler their hero? You think holocaust denial then comes out of nowhere? You see no hippocracy in the same people embracing Hitler in the next breath calling Jews Nazis?

The decision of Nasser, Assad, and other Arab League leaders leading up to and during World War Two to embrace Nazism and model their countries governments after it right down to the haircuts, mustaches, uniforms, goosestepping, secret political police (Mukbarrat which is a direct copy of Gestapo) and disriminatory laws against Jews attacked Jews not because they were Zionists but because they were Jews.

Jews were attacked because of an ancient link to religious animosity in Islam that sees Jews to this day in many Islamic sects as infidel, people who lie and are cursed. That is deeply entrenched in Muslim society in the Middle East and it plays out on t.v., radio and in the press and it is particularly toxic and influential because illiteracy remains high in the Middle East and people therefore are vulnerable and dependent on what they are told and hear and can not go out on their own and rsearch for themselves any other sources of opinion.

In your case however, the decision to remain bias and selective in your take of history is not caused by illiteracy but deliberate political opinion.

All this pertains directly to the on-going negotiations because its not just land on the West Bank in dispute-its the right of Jews to exist in the Middle East in a Jewish state that is being openly challenged and Israel can not give up land if its just a pretense of Palestinian extremists to placate their followers as a short gap measure before continuing on with a war to rid Israel of Jews.

You can spin all you want that Israel is to blame for all the ills and unfairness but the fact remains until the Palestinian people openly declare their acknowledgement of Israel and its right to exist-until they disarm their terrorists all the rhetoric in the world by you and Palestinian terrorists and politicians means nothing not just to Israelis but Palestinians who equally are aware that most politicians who have claimed to represent them, simply use them as pawns to fight Israelis and could care less about them.

 

[Demon of Light]

In regards to 1, the law of return for Palestinians which you choose to ignore when it has been show to you guaranteed that any person claiming to be Palestinian would automatically be granted Jordanian citizenship.

Palestinians in Jordan were granted citizenship. That is what your own source says and it is entirely different from a law of return. Jordan's motivation for that was also different. The government Jordan had annexed the West Bank and so ultimately granting Palestinians citizenship was just a way of completing the annexation. I already noted that King Abdullah had intended to annex the Palestinian state because he want to create a Greater Syria with him ruling from Damascus. He did not want a "Greater Palestine" because there was no such entity. He wanted a Greater Syria.

You calling this a law of return is just an attempt at delegitimizing the Palestinians as a people.

You choose to ignore it not because it did not exist but because your political agenda chooses to ignore Jordan deemed itself a state for Palestinians.

It gave them refuge and afforded them citizenship and the rights that go with it. Lebanon also granted citizenship to some Palestinians, mainly Christians. That does not mean Jordan was ever considered part of Palestine. It wasn't.

Until then he and all other Palestinians claimed the word Palestine was a Zionist invention.

That is ridiculous, I would have to look into King Hussein, but at the time Arafat was the head of a group called the Palestine Liberation Organization. Palestinians identified as Palestinians and identified with Palestine.

The speeches on record from Palestinian leaders of the PLO and Arab League ridiculing the notion of a Palestinian nationality and statehood are public domain. Pretending they are not there won't make them go away.

They were guided by Pan-Arabism and as such saw Palestine as a temporary thing to eventually join a single unified Arab state.

In regards to 2, no it does not work that way. The moment you do not disagree with something, calling it Zionist and then automatically infer because its Zionist it has no credibility is b.s. We all know that tactic. It avoids having to address the issues raised with a substantial counter arguement.

I was noting the hypocrisy of people who act like people who disagree with Israeli policy only look at anti-Israeli sites, but then only reference pro-Israeli ones. That is what you did with the Jewish exodus here.

In regards to 3, you can attempt once again to respin the forced expulsion of 900,000 Jews from the Arab League of Nations, but history speaks for itself.

History does speak for itself. Egypt is the only country that actually forcibly expelled the Jewish population from what I have read.

Trying to re-spin history to revise it to suggest these Jews were not forcefully expelled and factor into the equation of compensation and displacement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict again merely evidences your selective bias and agenda to only consider Palestinian grievances of displacement or Palestinian issues.

I think many of the Jews in question do have a legitimate grievance, but a sizable number chose to leave with some actually flown out of the country to Israel by Israel even when emigration was forbidden or strongly discouraged and quite a large number left for a country other than Israel so I think those two factors together make it largely a non-issue when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Morocco and Tunisia still have sizable Jewish minority populations today with emigration from those countries largely happening over decades and was basically voluntary. In fact, emigration was encouraged and facilitated by Zionist organizations for the very reason it was discouraged by the Arab League. The Arab League did not want to increase the Jewish population in Israel, while the Zionists obviously did.

I challenge you to stop trying to pretend Jews were not expelled from the Arab League of nations in direct retaliation for the creation of the State of Israel establishing the continued precedent that remains today, that Jews around the world will be targets of reprisals and attacks for the perceived actions of the state of Israel.

There is no pretending involved. The only Jewish population forcibly expelled from an Arab country was in Egypt and that was in retaliation for the Israeli invasion of the Suez in collaboration with France and the U.K. The Arab League explicitly ordered that Jews not be allowed to emigrate and many Arab countries stuck to this policy of prohibiting emigration for a long time. Syria only relented in the 90's and subsequently the few thousand Jews remaining, those that hadn't been smuggled out of the country already, left.

In your case you deliberately choose to ignore the anti-semitic attacks on Jews in the Arab League nations which turned them into scapegoats for the creation of the state of Israeli precisely because Arab politicians showed their hatred of Jews in general by using the Israeli creation as A PRETENSE from which to rationalize its attacks against Jews and Arab league politicians openly stated they would attack all Jewsin the Middle East as retaliation for Zionists creating a Jewish state.

No one is denying that Jews were attacked in response to the creation of Israel. However, the statement you mention was not a statement that they would attack anyone. It was saying plain and simply that the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine would damage inter-ethnic relations and lead to violence.

Go back and read the father of the Palestinian national movements speeches from his guest house in Berlin where he sat out the war as a distinguished guest of Hitler. You think the Mufti's calls to exterminating Jews was directed just at Zionists?

No one liked the Mufti. Arab leaders supporting him only did so because he was the leader of Palestinian nationalists and they saw them as a counterbalance to King Abdullah's irredentist ambitions.

You want to pretend Hamas and Hezbollah and the hundreds of anti-Israel terror cells don't use the Hitler salute, goosestep and read Mein Kampf and call Hitler their hero?

Where on earth are you getting this?

Jews were attacked because of an ancient link to religious animosity in Islam that sees Jews to this day in many Islamic sects as infidel, people who lie and are cursed.

You said you see both sides, but what I am seeing is a hell of a lot of hate for Palestinians, Muslims, and Arabs in general in conjunction with absurdly false statements.

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

The flammable animosity ends here. Thread closed.