Abbas condemns Hamas attack; 4 Israelis shot dead (edited)

[Gardener]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

That's how war works. That's how war has always worked. Enemy personnel are assets to be destroyed or stolen, no different than any other asset.

Yet this warning appeared in this subforum quite recently:

Moderator's Warning:
Per a review by the moderators, the following prohibition has been added to the Middle East Forum's rules.

Members are barred from "Advocating, justifying or terming acceptable deliberate, purposeful, or willful attacks on civilians/non-combatants."

Your line of rhetorec undermimes this stated position.

 

[Grant]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

Nobody's innocent. We all bear responsibility for the actions of our governments.

We are all responsible for the actions of our governments, even if we didn't vote for them?

Many of those 3,000 people who died on 9/11 weren't even American. Were they responsible for the actions of the American government, or were they innocent?

How about religious leaders then? Are all members of a religious group responsible for the actions some of its members?

Is it safe to assume you're a Muslim, educated in the traditionally spotty Islamic fashion?

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

Is it safe to assume you're a Muslim, educated in the traditionally spotty Islamic fashion?

Please avoid such ridiculous assumptions Grant, Korimyr is merely a declared facsist and he tries to abide by his ideology(seriously), even if it is against the forum's rules as Gardener pointed out.

 

[Grant]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

Please avoid such ridiculous assumptions Grant, Korimyr is merely a declared facsist and he tries to abide by his ideology(seriously), even if it is against the forum's rules as Gardener pointed out.

So he's a declared Fascist but not a Muslim?

Whew!! That's a relief!!

 

[digsbe]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

This is one prime reason why Israel needs to go back into Gaza and completely destroy Hamas. They targeted and killed 4 innocent civilians. 4 people were murdered by a racist theocratic terrorist organization. This is a disgusting a deplorable action, it is murder of innocent life by the hands of terrorists. The violence against Israelis by these terrorists sickens me. What has the UN said about this?

 

[bub]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

I've got a single thing to say: those who killed the 4 civilians only want to screw up the negociations, because they have no interrest in peace.

Keep on negociating, make a peace treaty, and they will loose.

Abort the negociations, make retaliation raids, there will be several more years of conflict and they win.

 

[bub]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

This is one prime reason why Israel needs to go back into Gaza and completely destroy Hamas. They targeted and killed 4 innocent civilians. 4 people were murdered by a racist theocratic terrorist organization. This is a disgusting a deplorable action, it is murder of innocent life by the hands of terrorists. The violence against Israelis by these terrorists sickens me. What has the UN said about this?

The problem is that the more you try to eliminate the Hamas, the more there will be collateral damages. And the more there are collateral damages, the more Hamas gains support.

You can't eliminate the Hamas, years of retaliation raids have not destroyed and will not destroy the Hamas. The only solution is to conclude a fair peace that would satisfy everyone. That includes the recognition of Israel and its security needs, but that also includes the creation of a Palestinian state and the withdrawal from many colonies in West-Bank. This is the only way to turn Hamas from an organisation using terrorism, to a peaceful political party.

That has happened with Israeli organisations in 1948, there is no reason why it could not work with Palestinian organisations in 2010 or 2011.

 

[ido_]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

That has happened with Israeli organisations in 1948, there is no reason why it could not work with Palestinian organisations in 2010 or 2011.

False, Israeli organisations only dismantled after the Israeli goverment decided to make a stand against them in the Altalena affair.

You can't eliminate the Hamas, years of retaliation raids have not destroyed and will not destroy the Hamas. The only solution is to conclude a fair peace that would satisfy everyone. That includes the recognition of Israel and its security needs, but that also includes the creation of a Palestinian state and the withdrawal from many colonies in West-Bank. This is the only way to turn Hamas from an organisation using terrorism, to a peaceful political party.

8 years ago the cities in the west bank and Jenin on top of them were at the same place Gaza is today, only the house to house operation managed to clean those cities up from militas and terrorists, yes they are not clean completely but Hamas's power is very small in the west bank, the Tansim were disarmed eventualy by the PA after Israel gave the security athority back to the Palestinian police in those cities. If Hamas will raise it head again as it did in late 2008, I believe there is no other choise to the Israeli goverment but to reoccupy Gaza and reinstate the order until the Palestinan police will be able to take over again.

Hopefully a more peacefull solution to the devision of the Palestinian people will come before this scenario will take place.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

Moderator's Warning:

There will be no further warnings issued in this thread, so discuss the topic and not each other.

 

[bub]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

False, Israeli organisations only dismantled after the Israeli goverment decided to make a stand against them in the Altalena affair.

So what? These were terrorit organisations, they became the Likkud. That's what I said.

8 years ago the cities in the west bank and Jenin on top of them were at the same place Gaza is today, only the house to house operation managed to clean those cities up from militas and terrorists, yes they are not clean completely but Hamas's power is very small in the west bank, the Tansim were disarmed eventualy by the PA after Israel gave the security athority back to the Palestinian police in those cities. If Hamas will raise it head again as it did in late 2008, I believe there is no other choise to the Israeli goverment but to reoccupy Gaza and reinstate the order until the Palestinan police will be able to take over again.

You can't "clean" a resistance against occupation. As long as there is an occupation, there will be some resistance. You can defend the colonies in West-Bank with Tsahal, but that's not a long term solution.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

Yet this warning appeared in this subforum quite recently:

Moderator's Warning:
Per a review by the moderators, the following prohibition has been added to the Middle East Forum's rules.

Members are barred from "Advocating, justifying or terming acceptable deliberate, purposeful, or willful attacks on civilians/non-combatants."

Your line of rhetorec undermimes this stated position.

You are right, and I apologize. This is why I typically avoid the Middle East forum. In my defense, I am not terming these attacks acceptable in the typical, one-sided fashion-- claiming that it is acceptable by my favored side of the dispute and criminal when the other side engages in the same tactics. I merely find amusing the level of moral outrage-- often selective moral outrage-- being expressed against two nations who are waging war the way that human nations have always waged war against one another and in the way that our own nations have each waged war within recent history. The fact that this misguided moral outrage is often expressed hypocritically-- that what makes one side "evil" is perfectly acceptable in the other-- only adds to the amusement.

To answer your earlier question, yes I would deliberately fire on enemy civilians, especially if there were some clear advantage to be gained by doing so.

 

[ido_]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

So what? These were terrorit organisations, they became the Likkud. That's what I said.
You can't "clean" a resistance against occupation. As long as there is an occupation, there will be some resistance. You can defend the colonies in West-Bank with Tsahal, but that's not a long term solution.

They didn't become Likud, certian members of those organizations were later on in the 1970s Likud party, its not like the organizations were dismantled and poped as Likud the next day.
Those groups tried to underline the goverment's sovrignity even after Israel was founded, they didn't dismantle by themselves because the Israeli state was founded as you suggested will happen with Hamas, they were dismantled by force by the Israeli goverment. Begin among others was even arrested for mutiny

 

[bub]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

They didn't become Likud, certian members of those organizations were later on in the 1970s Likud party, its not like the organizations were dismantled and poped as Likud the next day.
Those groups tried to underline the goverment's sovrignity even after Israel was founded, they didn't dismantle by themselves because the Israeli state was founded as you suggested will happen with Hamas, they were dismantled by force by the Israeli goverment. Begin among others was even arrested for mutiny

I don't care about that. People who were terrorists in the haganah (forgot the names of these groups) like Begin were later major members of the non-terrorist Israeli government. That's my point, that's a fact, there is nothing to be debated about that.

 

[alexa]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

I don't care about that. People who were terrorists in the haganah (forgot the names of these groups) like Begin were later major members of the non-terrorist Israeli government. That's my point, that's a fact, there is nothing to be debated about that.

Not to mention Martin McGuinness, previously known as 'The Butcher', now being a respected member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and so friendly with his erst while enemy Ian Paisley that they became known as the 'chuckle brothers'.

 

[ido_]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

I don't care about that. People who were terrorists in the haganah (forgot the names of these groups) like Begin were later major members of the non-terrorist Israeli government. That's my point, that's a fact, there is nothing to be debated about that.

First of all the Haganah wasn't a terrorist organization and Begin wasn't a member of the Haganah.
Second of all you are saying a peace treaty will make the radicals in the Hamas neglect their radical ways and their foothold over the strip to take a part of the new Palestinian state, you brought the Jewish terrorist organizations as an example. I am saying that the Jewish terrorist organization didn't disperse because of the formation of Israel but because the Israeli goverment acted against them and arrested their members, it wasn't voulentary as I understand you are saying will happen with Hamas.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

First of all the Haganah wasn't a terrorist organization and Begin wasn't a member of the Haganah.
Second of all you are saying a peace treaty will make the radicals in the Hamas neglect their radical ways and their foothold over the strip to take a part of the new Palestinian state, you brought the Jewish terrorist organizations as an example. I am saying that the Jewish terrorist organization didn't disperse because of the formation of Israel but because the Israeli goverment acted against them and arrested their members, it wasn't voulentary as I understand you are saying will happen with Hamas.

It's pointless Ido, I've already had this discussion with bub and I have explained to him that one of the first things that Israel did after its formation was to list those organizations as terror organizations.

The state of Israel was formed by the Zionist movement, through organizations such as the Hagannah, not through the Irgun or the Lehi organizations.

 

[Degreez]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

It's pointless Ido, I've already had this discussion with bub and I have explained to him that one of the first things that Israel did after its formation was to list those organizations as terror organizations.

And grant amnesty to terrorists like Yitzhak Shamir, Nathan Yellin-Mor, Yehoshua Cohen, Yehoshua Zeitler, etc. Even after that look at how they honored some of those people, like Eliyahu Bet-Zuri and Eliyahu Hakim in 1975. Full military honors for assassinating a politician. Only in Israel.


BOOKS OF THE TIMES - BOOKS OF THE TIMES - Terrorism Can Be Just Another Point of View - NYTimes.com
"It is tempting to note that right after the Bernadotte killing, the Israeli Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, outlawed Lehi as "a gang of rogues, cowards and low schemers," and ordered that scores of its people be rounded up. Within five months, he had declared an amnesty and released them all."

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

And grant amnesty to terrorists like Yitzhak Shamir, Nathan Yellin-Mor, Yehoshua Cohen, Yehoshua Zeitler, etc. Even after that look at how they honored some of those people, like Eliyahu Bet-Zuri and Eliyahu Hakim in 1975. Full military honors for assassinating a politician. Only in Israel.

The marked part is false.
I can give the example of Ireland as another state where the politicians come from a former militia organization similar to the Irgun and Lehi (the IRA).
Now this begs the question whether you've posted such false information based on ignorance or based on deliberate propaganda.

 

[Degreez]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

The marked part is false.
I can give the example of Ireland as another state where the politicians come from a former militia organization similar to the Irgun and Lehi (the IRA).
Now this begs the question whether you've posted such false information based on ignorance or based on deliberate propaganda.

Only an Israeli would comment on one part of a post that is meant to be purposefully sarcastic while totally disregarding the actual content of said post (ie - Israel praising its own terrorists).

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

Only an Israeli would comment on one part of a post that is meant to be purposefully sarcastic while totally disregarding the actual content of said post (ie - Israel praising its own terrorists).

Only a backwards primitive would think that a nationality is a deciding factor in a person's attitude.

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

Moderator's Warning:

Discuss the topic and not each other

 

[justabubba]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

First of all the Haganah wasn't a terrorist organization and Begin wasn't a member of the Haganah.
Second of all you are saying a peace treaty will make the radicals in the Hamas neglect their radical ways and their foothold over the strip to take a part of the new Palestinian state, you brought the Jewish terrorist organizations as an example. I am saying that the Jewish terrorist organization didn't disperse because of the formation of Israel but because the Israeli goverment acted against them and arrested their members, it wasn't voulentary as I understand you are saying will happen with Hamas.

you have offered information concerning the israeli terrorists, about which i did not previously know
who where those who were arrested by israel for their terrorism and what was the ultimate disposition of their cases?

 

[alexa]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

The marked part is false.
I can give the example of Ireland as another state where the politicians come from a former militia organization similar to the Irgun and Lehi (the IRA).

That is true and that goes with Bub's initial comment that Hamas can be dealt with and has the potential to change into a normal political party. Tell Ian Paisley that Martin McGuinness would have changed in this way in the 1980's and, well I would not like to think what he would have said or done. Nonetheless not only was the change made but they became good friends.

It is possible to work with terrorists and change the situation if the will is there.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

That is true and that goes with Bub's initial comment that Hamas can be dealt with and has the potential to change into a normal political party. Tell Ian Paisley that Martin McGuinness would have changed in this way in the 1980's and, well I would not like to think what he would have said or done. Nonetheless not only was the change made but they became good friends.

It is possible to work with terrorists and change the situation if the will is there.

I always said that once a terorist organization renounces violence it can be treated respectfully, the same goes for Hamas.
However Hamas has not and doesn't plan to renounce violence, and only yesterday and two days ago it has committed two new terror attacks on Israeli civilians.
To negotiate with Hamas in that situation is to give it legitimacy, something that as long as it doesn't renounce violence it hasn't, it's a genocidal terror organization that seeks to "win" the conflict with the murder of civilians.

 

[Gardener]

Re: 4 Israelis shot dead by Hamas terrorists in West Bank(edited)

It is possible to work with terrorists and change the situation if the will is there.

A lot of people are working with terrorists, Alexa.

What seems increasingly difficult is finding people willing to work against them.