A Sense of God[W:288]

calamity · Feb 6, 2015

I think about the concept of "god" a lot. It's not something I take lightly. And, the thoughts are more or less filling my need for understanding things which are not easily understood. Why are we here, what's it all about, is this all there is? I look that way too when confronted with random acts or when looking for guidance on a subconscious level.

Within a reasonable level of certainty, I am confident that the gods of this or that religion do not exist, especially not as described in the various texts or spoken through religious dogma. However, I would not go so far as to say there is not something, real or imagined, which can be tapped into during a time of need that gives comfort and the illusion of control: A loved one is going in for life-threatening surgery, so, I pray to "god," and let said prayer still my heart. That sort of thing.

Maybe that's what it's all about. God, the imaginary friend who can pull us through when times get rough. I guess that makes sense to me. And, perhaps, those who take it to the extremes by worshiping their imaginary friend on a daily basis and othering people who worship differently are simply taking it down a road I do not feel comfortable traveling. Or, maybe they are just more delusional. Don't know.

Glen Contrarian · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I think about the concept of "god" a lot. It's not something I take lightly. And, the thoughts are more or less filling my need for understanding things which are not easily understood. Why are we here, what's it all about, is this all there is? I look that way too when confronted with random acts or when looking for guidance on a subconscious level.

Within a reasonable level of certainty, I am confident that the gods of this or that religion do not exist, especially not as described in the various texts or spoken through religious dogma. However, I would not go so far as to say there is not something, real or imagined, which can be tapped into during a time of need that gives comfort and the illusion of control: A loved one is going in for life-threatening surgery, so, I pray to "god," and let said prayer still my heart. That sort of thing.

Maybe that's what it's all about. God, the imaginary friend who can pull us through when times get rough. I guess that makes sense to me. And, perhaps, those who take it to the extremes by worshiping their imaginary friend on a daily basis and othering people who worship differently are simply taking it down a road I do not feel comfortable traveling. Or, maybe they are just more delusional. Don't know.

I am a strong Christian. But I can't take the Bible as solid evidence in and of itself that God exists. Here's why I do believe that God exists.

I remember a time back in the 1970's, late at night at the dinner table, when my Uncle Kenneth was telling my grandmother and myself about what we would today call a near-death experience. None of us had ever heard of such a thing before, and Uncle Kenneth was about as cynical about everything as anyone I've ever known...but this was completely different, something that one would not expect from someone with such a hard-boiled personality. I never forgot that night, and the memory is clear to this day.

As the years went by and the term 'near-death experience' became part of our social lexicon, and one starts seeing that NDE's are found in all cultures, all nations; not only that, but most of them share one of two common descriptions: either there's a friend or family member that's gone before or there's a great, indescribably beautiful light, and whichever it is, personally knows the one having the NDE and tells him or her that it's not time yet, that he or she has to go back.

The fact that it appears to happen in all nations and cultures indicates that this is not a social or cultural phenomenon, but is actually a part of the human experience. There is awareness after death...and the fact that so many NDE's involve something or someone that knows the person's name means that there's something there that is intelligent and aware of us even on a personal level.

But how does this prove the existence of God, and that it's not 'just' a metaphysical phenomenon that we are only beginning to explore? Again, if something is there, and it knows us on a personal level, and it tells so many who experience NDE's that "it's not time yet", such implies omniscience. So what's left, really, is to accept that there is Something there, that it looks like there's a strong possibility that God does indeed exist.

And that leaves us with the search for the true religion...and I think you might agree with me that it's sorta like searching for one particular needle in a haystack of needles. I believe I have found that particular needle in a place where I would never have expected it, and I also believe that the vast majority of those who call themselves 'Christian' are not truly Christian. I can go into why I believe as I do if you like, but I would leave you with this one thought: if God sent someone to preach the Gospel, would He send people to preach Gospels that in any way conflicted with each other? I don't think so. Therefore, (to borrow that line from "Highlander") there can be only one. One true path, one true Church. All other paths are wrong...and any church or belief that says that other churches or faiths can also lead to salvation even when their beliefs are even one whit different from its own, then that church cannot be true.

If you'll think about it, what other subject can possibly be so important as that of the search for - and preparation for - what happens after we die?

Glen Contrarian · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I think about the concept of "god" a lot.

And one more thing -

If you really want to tie your brain in knots, now that we're starting to see that not just animals but even insects seem to have personalities - which itself implies self-awareness - well, that's something to think about, isn't it? Think about that the next time you sit down to Thanksgiving dinner with that wonderfully-roasted turkey there that's making your mouth water.... I love meat too much to ever become vegan, but I hate the guilt that I'm feeling about it. If animals and even insects have personalities and self-awareness, then if we have an afterlife, wouldn't they have one, too?

But I do admit that I feel zero guilt about killing mosquitoes.... "Yeah, I don't care if your mother wants you to live - you suck MY blood and leave me with mosquito bites, you're gonna die!"

calamity · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Glen Contrarian said:
And one more thing -

If you really want to tie your brain in knots, now that we're starting to see that not just animals but even insects seem to have personalities - which itself implies self-awareness - well, that's something to think about, isn't it? Think about that the next time you sit down to Thanksgiving dinner with that wonderfully-roasted turkey there that's making your mouth water.... I love meat too much to ever become vegan, but I hate the guilt that I'm feeling about it. If animals and even insects have personalities and self-awareness, then if we have an afterlife, wouldn't they have one, too?

But I do admit that I feel zero guilt about killing mosquitoes.... "Yeah, I don't care if your mother wants you to live - you suck MY blood and leave me with mosquito bites, you're gonna die!"

Bugs are made for smacking and turkeys for eating. Although, I admit, when I saw the bug zapper in the garage of a house I recently bought, I quickly got rid of it.

Glen Contrarian · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
Bugs are made for smacking and turkeys for eating. Although, I admit, when I saw the bug zapper in the garage of a house I recently bought, I quickly got rid of it.

Even with all insects - except for mosquitoes - if I have the opportunity, I really do try to shoo them outside without killing them or harming them, if possible.

But again, I'm a hypocrite. I do love a good steak. And it's for that reason that I really am looking forward to vat-grown meat.

But what is your opinion on what I said about the commonality of certain types of NDE's being what I take as proof of an afterlife, and of an apparently omniscient awareness on the other side?

Paschendale · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Glen Contrarian said:
If you'll think about it, what other subject can possibly be so important as that of the search for - and preparation for - what happens after we die?

I had an NDE as a child, long before I ever heard any description of such a thing. It had nothing to do with any gods. It's just your brain freaking out when your body is damaged. And it is not, as you say, an "awareness after death". You haven't died. Nor is the personal nature of the experience indicative of any exterior force interacting with you. Your experience knows your name because you do, and it's happening entirely inside your mind. Oh and the "not time yet" feeling, that comes from not actually dying. It's recognition that you're going to survive whatever happens.

All of this comes from inside you. It's in your own brain and your own mind. There is no reason to conclude anything about an exterior force unless you have been socialized to do so.

zyzygy · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Paschendale said:
I had an NDE as a child, long before I ever heard any description of such a thing. It had nothing to do with any gods. It's just your brain freaking out when your body is damaged. And it is not, as you say, an "awareness after death". You haven't died. Nor is the personal nature of the experience indicative of any exterior force interacting with you. Your experience knows your name because you do, and it's happening entirely inside your mind. Oh and the "not time yet" feeling, that comes from not actually dying. It's recognition that you're going to survive whatever happens.

All of this comes from inside you. It's in your own brain and your own mind. There is no reason to conclude anything about an exterior force unless you have been socialized to do so.

"According to research done by Dr. Narayanan Ning Juan, DMT is produced by the pineal gland when we are asleep. It is typically secreted in small quantities during REM sleep. Which may be a reason we have such vivid dreams during that phase of sleep.

However, prior to death, it is secreted in large quantities which causes hallucinations, explaining what many people have experienced. This may be, perhaps, a more accurate picture as to why there is a continuity of experience between these highly individual events."
Understanding Near-Death Experiences: a New Study

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I think about the concept of "god" a lot. It's not something I take lightly. And, the thoughts are more or less filling my need for understanding things which are not easily understood. Why are we here, what's it all about, is this all there is? I look that way too when confronted with random acts or when looking for guidance on a subconscious level.

Within a reasonable level of certainty, I am confident that the gods of this or that religion do not exist, especially not as described in the various texts or spoken through religious dogma. However, I would not go so far as to say there is not something, real or imagined, which can be tapped into during a time of need that gives comfort and the illusion of control: A loved one is going in for life-threatening surgery, so, I pray to "god," and let said prayer still my heart. That sort of thing.

Maybe that's what it's all about. God, the imaginary friend who can pull us through when times get rough. I guess that makes sense to me. And, perhaps, those who take it to the extremes by worshiping their imaginary friend on a daily basis and othering people who worship differently are simply taking it down a road I do not feel comfortable traveling. Or, maybe they are just more delusional. Don't know.

You pray to what you believe to be, "imaginary...."

You know and admit it is "imaginary...." yet you pray to it anyway.....

So, you know it exists only in your imagination.....but you pray to it.

That's the most honest confession admitting to full-fledged........ self-delusion.
Let me be the first one to shake your hand.

Hari Seldon · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

tosca1 said:
You pray to what you believe to be, "imaginary...."

You know and admit it is "imaginary...." yet you pray to it anyway.....

So, you know it exists only in your imagination.....but you pray to it.

That's the most honest confession admitting to full-fledged........ self-delusion.
Let me be the first one to shake your hand.

No more so than praying before a sporting event as if a "God" will help you win the big game.

Fearandloathing · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Glen Contrarian said:
I am a strong Christian. But I can't take the Bible as solid evidence in and of itself that God exists. Here's why I do believe that God exists.

I remember a time back in the 1970's, late at night at the dinner table, when my Uncle Kenneth was telling my grandmother and myself about what we would today call a near-death experience. None of us had ever heard of such a thing before, and Uncle Kenneth was about as cynical about everything as anyone I've ever known...but this was completely different, something that one would not expect from someone with such a hard-boiled personality. I never forgot that night, and the memory is clear to this day.

As the years went by and the term 'near-death experience' became part of our social lexicon, and one starts seeing that NDE's are found in all cultures, all nations; not only that, but most of them share one of two common descriptions: either there's a friend or family member that's gone before or there's a great, indescribably beautiful light, and whichever it is, personally knows the one having the NDE and tells him or her that it's not time yet, that he or she has to go back.

The fact that it appears to happen in all nations and cultures indicates that this is not a social or cultural phenomenon, but is actually a part of the human experience. There is awareness after death...and the fact that so many NDE's involve something or someone that knows the person's name means that there's something there that is intelligent and aware of us even on a personal level.

But how does this prove the existence of God, and that it's not 'just' a metaphysical phenomenon that we are only beginning to explore? Again, if something is there, and it knows us on a personal level, and it tells so many who experience NDE's that "it's not time yet", such implies omniscience. So what's left, really, is to accept that there is Something there, that it looks like there's a strong possibility that God does indeed exist.

And that leaves us with the search for the true religion...and I think you might agree with me that it's sorta like searching for one particular needle in a haystack of needles. I believe I have found that particular needle in a place where I would never have expected it, and I also believe that the vast majority of those who call themselves 'Christian' are not truly Christian. I can go into why I believe as I do if you like, but I would leave you with this one thought: if God sent someone to preach the Gospel, would He send people to preach Gospels that in any way conflicted with each other? I don't think so. Therefore, (to borrow that line from "Highlander") there can be only one. One true path, one true Church. All other paths are wrong...and any church or belief that says that other churches or faiths can also lead to salvation even when their beliefs are even one whit different from its own, then that church cannot be true.

If you'll think about it, what other subject can possibly be so important as that of the search for - and preparation for - what happens after we die?

There can never be proof of God's existence, it is the nature of God. He wants us to love him in faith, we would like to say "if you exists move that pencil", but he says no, have faith.

The Bible is not proof of anything, the only characters that can be proven are Pontius Pilot and Herrod, we have only Roman history to document what was to them a dirty little backwater they thought was ungovernable...my how things never change.

The Bible is a collection of books of various authors who write not about God, but the people and their relationship with the God of their misunderstanding, there was no ark, no whale for Jonah and i doubt there ever were specific characters named "Adam" and "eve".

Much of the work is Metaphor, poetry and adventure coupled with laws, some of which were so stupid even Jesus laughed.

Faith has nothing to do with Bibles, religion nor church, in fact I believe if Jesus were to return today, he would come bearing his famous whip.,....for all of us. Faith is all about love. My story is simple, I was 11 stories above the ground in Hollywood Florida, drunk and stoned and wanting to make my mark on the sun baked tarmac beloe and God stepped onto the balcony and said "no"

a year and a half later I walked into a church and asked "who is this Jesus guy" only to learn they hadn't a clue but knew a lot about the Bible..and later Jesus said "I will teach you"

Today I am a student

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
Maybe that's what it's all about. God, the imaginary friend who can pull us through when times get rough. I guess that makes sense to me. And, perhaps, those who take it to the extremes by worshiping their imaginary friend on a daily basis and othering people who worship differently are simply taking it down a road I do not feel comfortable traveling. Or, maybe they are just more delusional. Don't know.

Big difference.

They're not delusional if they have logical reasons to believe.
Christians have logical reasons to believe that their God is real.

They worship in something they believe is real.....whereas you worship what you believe to be imaginary!

To say that someone who actually TALKS to something she knows and believes does not exists, but pretends that it exists and talks to it anyway, is suffering from self-delusion....... would be an understatement. :lol:

calamity · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

tosca1 said:
Big difference.

They're not delusional if they have logical reasons to believe.
Christians have logical reasons to believe that their God is real.

They worship in something they believe is real.....whereas you worship what you believe to be imaginary!

To say that someone who actually TALKS to something she knows and believes does not exists, but pretends that it exists and talks to it anyway, is suffering from self-delusion....... would be an understatement. :lol:

I'm not so sure about that.

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I think about the concept of "god" a lot. It's not something I take lightly. And, the thoughts are more or less filling my need for understanding things which are not easily understood. Why are we here, what's it all about, is this all there is? I look that way too when confronted with random acts or when looking for guidance on a subconscious level.

Within a reasonable level of certainty, I am confident that the gods of this or that religion do not exist, especially not as described in the various texts or spoken through religious dogma. However, I would not go so far as to say there is not something, real or imagined, which can be tapped into during a time of need that gives comfort and the illusion of control: A loved one is going in for life-threatening surgery, so, I pray to "god," and let said prayer still my heart. That sort of thing.

Maybe that's what it's all about. God, the imaginary friend who can pull us through when times get rough. I guess that makes sense to me. And, perhaps, those who take it to the extremes by worshiping their imaginary friend on a daily basis and othering people who worship differently are simply taking it down a road I do not feel comfortable traveling. Or, maybe they are just more delusional. Don't know.

Kidding aside, it is interesting to note the way you put it. Seriously,

Why do you have that need to PRAY to something?

Of all descriptions to use.....why do you have to call it a "sense of God?" Why the usage of that word, God?

Maybe that's what it's all about. God, the imaginary friend who can pull us through when times get rough.

If you know it's imaginary anyway, why do you think it can pull you through when times get rough?

How can you believe that something you believe to be imaginary....can pull you through when times get rough?

Why do you have the need to believe in something , even if it's just what you think is "make-believe?"

calamity · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

zyzygy said:
"According to research done by Dr. Narayanan Ning Juan, DMT is produced by the pineal gland when we are asleep. It is typically secreted in small quantities during REM sleep. Which may be a reason we have such vivid dreams during that phase of sleep.

However, prior to death, it is secreted in large quantities which causes hallucinations, explaining what many people have experienced. This may be, perhaps, a more accurate picture as to why there is a continuity of experience between these highly individual events."
Understanding Near-Death Experiences: a New Study

My grandmother in-law is nearing death. Her heart is failing. She has numerous hallucinations now. They say it is the result of her heart not feeding her brain with enough oxygenated blood.

calamity · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

tosca1 said:
Kidding aside, it is interesting to note the way you put it. Seriously,

Why do you have that need to PRAY to something?

Of all descriptions to use.....why do you have to call it a "sense of God?" Why the usage of that word, God?

If you know it's imaginary anyway, why do you think it can pull you through when times get rough? How can you believe that something you believe to be imaginary....can pull you through when times get rough?

I do not know it's imaginary. I can't know. Not for certain.

calamity · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Glen Contrarian said:
Even with all insects - except for mosquitoes - if I have the opportunity, I really do try to shoo them outside without killing them or harming them, if possible.

But again, I'm a hypocrite. I do love a good steak. And it's for that reason that I really am looking forward to vat-grown meat.

But what is your opinion on what I said about the commonality of certain types of NDE's being what I take as proof of an afterlife, and of an apparently omniscient awareness on the other side?

I'm not sure. It's comforting though to know that we go pleasantly and with images of friends and loved ones on the horizon. As to that sense of being "told" it is not your time--I experienced something like that once myself. It's kind of cool.

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I'm not so sure about that.

About what? About Christians believing their God is real?

It doesn't matter what you believe about their God.

The point is, they believe they're worshipping something that truly exists....whereas you're worshipping something you know and believe is only, imaginary!

That would be like you knowing and believing the tooth fairy is only imaginary (that you even make fun of those poor kids who actually believe in it), and yet you save your tooth and put it under your pillow - and you even check on it the next day! :lol:

You even pretend to be dismayed when you find your tooth siiting there instead of a quarter!

Nilly · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Glen Contrarian said:
As the years went by and the term 'near-death experience' became part of our social lexicon, and one starts seeing that NDE's are found in all cultures, all nations; not only that, but most of them share one of two common descriptions: either there's a friend or family member that's gone before or there's a great, indescribably beautiful light, and whichever it is, personally knows the one having the NDE and tells him or her that it's not time yet, that he or she has to go back.

The fact that it appears to happen in all nations and cultures indicates that this is not a social or cultural phenomenon, but is actually a part of the human experience. There is awareness after death...and the fact that so many NDE's involve something or someone that knows the person's name means that there's something there that is intelligent and aware of us even on a personal level.

But how does this prove the existence of God, and that it's not 'just' a metaphysical phenomenon that we are only beginning to explore? Again, if something is there, and it knows us on a personal level, and it tells so many who experience NDE's that "it's not time yet", such implies omniscience. So what's left, really, is to accept that there is Something there, that it looks like there's a strong possibility that God does indeed exist.

If you'll think about it, what other subject can possibly be so important as that of the search for - and preparation for - what happens after we die?

While I will agree that NDE's seem to transcend cultural barriers, there is really no reason to come to the conclusion that god is behind it. As mentioned by others, there are actually naturalistic, non metaphysical reasons for why NDE's occur (extra secretion of DMT etc). Furthermore, it is a giant leap of faith to conclude 'god' from omniscience, and and even greater leap still to conclude omniscience from the 'not time yet' feeling.

As for what other subject that could be as important as for the search and preparation for what happens after we die? What about the search and preparation to answer the question of how should we live?

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I do not know it's imaginary. I can't know. Not for certain.

Calamity, forgive me for my awful sense of humor....I can't help it, it's in my nature. I do get carried away!

But I think you need to really look deep inside you.....and if you can, just talk to God......and ask Him to help you know that He's real.

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I do not know it's imaginary. I can't know. Not for certain.

Something is prompting you to call it a, "sense of God." You may not be conscious of it....but the God I believe to be real, oft times reaches out.

If we could only be still, and listen....

Glen Contrarian · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

calamity said:
I'm not sure. It's comforting though to know that we go pleasantly and with images of friends and loved ones on the horizon. As to that sense of being "told" it is not your time--I experienced something like that once myself. It's kind of cool.

Here's something else.

We take care of an elderly lady in our home. She's got a form of dementia - every day is Easter to her. Anyway, she's always very grateful for everything, never makes a real fuss, never raises her voice, and for the 2.5 years she's been with us, never gets up at night.

Except for one night I will never forget. She got up at about 4:30 AM, and started yelling "I can't breathe! I can't breathe!" We were able to settle her down after a while, with the help of her meds. But the next day we found out that her sister that lived about 80 miles away had passed away at that same exact time. That sends chills down a guy's spine, y'know?

Yeah, that's a bit spooky...but I don't liken this to an NDE. Actually, I strongly suspect that it's something that's come to be called "quantum biology". You've probably heard of "quantum entanglement", where subatomic particles become entangled, and when the state of one is changed, the other automatically changes, too - and it's truly instantaneous, not limited by the speed of light. Thing is, at first this was found only in subatomic particles, but now they've found it not just in atoms, but even in complex molecules...and there's a serious school of thought that this can happen across time, as well.

Yeah, that sounds silly...but then, try to explain away sympathy pains, or how a flock of birds all swerve in the same direction at the same time, or how a mom just knows something's going on with her child who's so far away.

There's a lot more to this world than we yet understand.

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Nilly said:
As for what other subject that could be as important as for the search and preparation for what happens after we die? What about the search and preparation to answer the question of how should we live?

If the afterlife has no importance at all - why do you need to search for an answer how to live your life? What for?
What "preparation" do you need? "Preparation" for what, exactly? Why do you need this "preparation?" What for?

Why do you even have to answer the question, how we should live?

Who will give you that answer?

What authority does anyone have to tell me how I should live? Are you going to elevate another human - maybe somebody like George Clooney, or Angelina Jolie, or the Kardashians, or Richard Dawkins - to tell you how you should live your life? Why would you hand anyone that supreme status?

Wouldn't you just live your life the way you want to live it?

Nilly · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

tosca1 said:
If the afterlife has no importance at all - why do you need to search for an answer how to live your life? What for?
What "preparation" do you need? "Preparation" for what, exactly? Why do you need this "preparation?" What for?

Why do you even have to question how we should live?

Wouldn't you just live your lifet the way you want to live it?

As the afterlife is of no importance at all, this is the only life we get. So I want to prepare for it and make sure I live it to the full. That takes preparation.

tosca1 · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

Nilly said:
As the afterlife is of no importance at all, then this is the only life we get. So I want to prepare for it and make sure I live it to the full. That takes preparation.

Prepare for the life we're actually living now? :roll:

We could be dead tomorrow!

If there is no afterlife - we should all live like there is no tomorrow!
Every fulfillment our hearts desire, anything that brings us pleasure - they must be experienced NOW!
The next breath we take may be our last!

There is no such thing as "preparation," if you want to live your life to the fullest. The word "preparation" does not go with living this one life to the fullest....you'll be wasting what precious time you've got left "preparing" for who knows what!

Nilly · Feb 6, 2015

Re: A Sense of God

tosca1 said:
Prepare for the life we're actually living now? :roll:

We could be dead tomorrow!

Erm yeah. Do you save money? Or do you spend it the day you get it?

I work my job today so I can enjoy tomorrow more.

A Sense of God[W:288]

calamity

Privileged

Glen Contrarian

Glen Contrarian

calamity

Privileged

Glen Contrarian

Paschendale

Uncanny

zyzygy

tosca1

Hari Seldon

Stable Genius

Fearandloathing

How long is now?

tosca1

calamity

Privileged

tosca1

calamity

Privileged

calamity

Privileged

calamity

Privileged

tosca1

Nilly

stb

tosca1

tosca1

Glen Contrarian

tosca1

Nilly

stb

tosca1

Nilly

stb

A Sense of God[W:288]

Privileged

Privileged

Uncanny

Stable Genius

How long is now?

Privileged

Privileged

Privileged

Privileged

stb

stb

stb

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency