A second worst mistake of State Department after Iraq War. (1 Viewer)

[Falkow]

hi there. I want to bring to your attention what I was thinking about the other day. you may've heard about the Central Asia-Caucasus Institute (CACI) at Johns Hopkins University (Washington) and you perhaps know that this is the institution that is sort of general department to outline policy of State Dep. for Central Asia and the Caucasus region. And you know what? During the past two or three months experts at CACI trend to increasingly criticize the regime of Mikhail Saakashvili, president of Georgia and implicit US protege who was the one to organize the so-called "Rose Revolution" in 2003 in Tbilisi.
The CACI experts emphasize not only numerous political blunders by Saakashvili and his Cabinet but also systematic violations of human rights by Georgian law-enforcement authorities with the knowledge of Saakashvili, overwhelming control over the population, arbitrary rule of president and ministers most close to him, wide corrupt practices, inhuman treatment of political detainees, etc., etc.
What puzzles me, it so happens that the US was all this time since 2003 supporting a monster, a dictator! How could this be? In total, Saakashvili was able to obtain some $600 million in aid from the US to develop Georgia's industry but the best part of it got embezzled by Saakashvili himself and his people! Georgia turned out to be nothing but a black hole! I would not care if it was not the money I had to pay being a taxpayer!
I recon that Saakashvili was a second worst mistake of the State Dep. after war in Iraq. Whatever you may say, this is all Condoleezza Rice's fault, anyway. When she entered the office in January 2005, it was her idea to go on supporting Saakashvili which turned out to be a complete loss of money and time!
Still as they say it’s better to recognize one’s own mistakes late than never al all.

 

[MSgt]

First, welcome to the site!

Second, outstanding first post.

Third, We have Marines in Georgia training their military in marksmanship. (That's just some FYI for ya.) With an unpredictable Russia, it's good to have a solid base nation next door.

Fourth, it is easy to declare what is right and wrong, but we have to step back and take a look and identify all the factors. The U.S. is a country that has been built on free trade and strong economics. We have to protect this, which means that we do, in fact, maintain business practices with fascists, absolutists, and thugs. We have sacrificed our core values from time to time and we have supported the most reprehensible Arab regimes in the Middle East and dictators in other places for a sense of "stability" (despite the fact that our nation was built on the instability and crumblings of other nations). We have held up governments that have long outlived their expiration dates. However, we should also recognize that if we had not supported these regimes and instead supported the other side of the social spectrum in these nations, we would have wound up still supporting nations with brutal leaders, but they would have had communist influences. In the Middle East, especially, we are dealing with cultures of greed and dogmatic religious oppressions.

We are a nation with traditionally high morals and values with occasional acts of "less than honorable" deeds. This is our hypocrisy and it is out on stage for all the world to see. At least we can be honest about it. You won't find such honesty in the smug nations around the globe that look down on us, despite their activities, as they call themselves our "allies" when they need us.

 

[justone]

During the past two or three months experts at CACI trend to increasingly criticize the regime of Mikhail Saakashvili, president of Georgia and implicit US protege who was the one to organize the so-called "Rose Revolution" in 2003 in Tbilisi.
The CACI experts emphasize not only numerous political blunders by Saakashvili and his Cabinet but also systematic violations of human rights by Georgian law-enforcement authorities with the knowledge of Saakashvili, overwhelming control over the population, arbitrary rule of president and ministers most close to him, wide corrupt practices, inhuman treatment of political detainees, etc., etc.
What puzzles me, it so happens that the US was all this time since 2003 supporting a monster, a dictator! How could this be? In total, Saakashvili was able to obtain some $600 million in aid from the US to develop Georgia's industry but the best part of it got embezzled by Saakashvili himself and his people! .

The matter is it is difficult to see clearly and it is difficult to PREDICT in a VERYfluid situation what is better and what is worse for Georgia and for our interests. Our support of a good guy in our view often may be turned up side down by the same guy. Saakashvili may still be better than an alternative. What is the alternative? Somebody who is going to turn to be even worse than Saakashvili in a year or 2?

 

[Volker]

I recon that Saakashvili was a second worst mistake of the State Dep. after war in Iraq. Whatever you may say, this is all Condoleezza Rice's fault, anyway. When she entered the office in January 2005, it was her idea to go on supporting Saakashvili which turned out to be a complete loss of money and time!
Still as they say it’s better to recognize one’s own mistakes late than never al all.

There is an important oil project planned, the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan-Pipeline.
I think, Mrs. Rice is able to forget about the freedom thing as long as the oil flow is working well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline

 

[MSgt]

There is an important oil project planned, the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan-Pipeline.
I think, Mrs. Rice is able to forget about the freedom thing as long as the oil flow is working well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline

This is what I was getting at. "Oil Politics" is a serious matter to the world and America must do what is necessary to encourage that stability. Allies are nothing more than nation's with similar interests. If oil prices sky rocketed around the world (especially in America) and wars erupted because of this instability, the American government wouldn't be doing it's job of potection.

It's hard to be a nation of high morals and values and deal with the "less-than-honorable" factors of this world. Sacrifices in ideals must be made. Otherwise, we would be in a constant state of war.

 

[Volker]

Allies are nothing more than nation's with similar interests.

Yes, I understand the need to compromise. In the end, Mr. Saakashvili has been elected with very clear results. What is a little bit surprising to me, is, that the former Georgian government still was an American ally, so I wonder, why Mrs. Rice should have been interested in a change. Maybe she was concerned about a more unstable Georgia under the former government. Maybe she joined the team which was about to win.

 

[MSgt]

Yes, I understand the need to compromise. In the end, Mr. Saakashvili has been elected with very clear results. What is a little bit surprising to me, is, that the former Georgian government still was an American ally, so I wonder, why Mrs. Rice should have been interested in a change. Maybe she was concerned about a more unstable Georgia under the former government. Maybe she joined the team which was about to win.

American interests will always be at the heart of matters where we are involved, but if we can get those interests at very little expense to sacrificing moral values, we should do it. It can be argued that the mistakes of the American foreign policy during the Cold War was avoidable, just like it can be argued that it could not be avoidable. Either way, governments do busines with other governments...not with the people. In America's case, foreign nations are doing business with the people, because of our type of government, but the majority of our world is not like ours. We must choose who our friends are in relation to common interests and hope that those governments are doing the right thing for their people. This is where we get a bad rep - our "allies" can easily abuse and oppress their people causing major problems later on for America (reference the Saudi government). If the current Georgian government goes on a rampage to abuse and slaughter their people based on "defiant" ideals and oppositions, it will be America and it's "support" that will be blamed.

America is often an unfair scapegoat, because of real grey world politics.

 

[Volker]

If the current Georgian government goes on a rampage to abuse and slaughter their people based on "defiant" ideals and oppositions, it will be America and it's "support" that will be blamed.

I don't think, the Georgian government plans something like this.

America is often an unfair scapegoat, because of real grey world politics.

This was not my intention here and Falkow said, he is an American taxpayer. But I think, I know, what you mean.