• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A Right To Secede?


Yes, a child in reasoning, argument and pronouncement.

I was not creating strawmen but rather only responding to your own repeated statements,...

,... and then you go and back up the strawmen you claimed I fabricated, by repeatedly showing your support for Progressive statist ideology and the irresistible dictate of the national government.
 
Last edited:
The fact that an independent nation agrees to treaty conditions is no indication that it is not an independent nation.

And a nation cannot just wantonly break a treaty without the consent of the other parties to the treaty, can it?
 
And a nation cannot just wantonly break a treaty without the consent of the other parties to the treaty, can it?

Yes, it can. That is the nature of sovereignty.
 
Nope, a country is bound to a contract it voluntarily agrees to, just like a human being.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Your position would lead one to conclude that no country could leave, say, the United Nations without permission.
 



Look I am not debating with you anymore since you straight up are trying to tell em what I actually think. Plus the repeated lies and BS all that seems to be centered on how you think of me. Dude I really couldnt careless what you think of me so quit telling me.

I dont want you to straighten up or anything like that just stop talking to me.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Your position would lead one to conclude that no country could leave, say, the United Nations without permission.

The UN is a little different, as the federal government under the Constitution is a little firmer (no wars on other states, no separate confederacies, etc). I disagree with the notion that the states were considered independent sovereign entities after the AoC were gotten rid of; the opinion of the Framers indicate that this is not the case.
 

then you did not read at all did you from them?

Madison and jefferson stated states can secede.

Madison states in federalist 39:Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a federal, and not a national constitution.

William Rawle
It depends on the state itself to retain or abolish the principle of representation, because it depends on itself whether it will continue a member of the Union. To deny this right would be inconsistent with the principle on which all our political systems are founded, which is, that the people have in all cases, a right to determine how they will be governed.

The secession of a state from the Union depends on the will of the people of such state. The people alone as we have already seen, hold the power to alter their constitution.

To withdraw from the Union is a solemn, serious act. Whenever it may appear expedient to the people of a state
 


You have not been "debating with me" from the start. You have been throwing out nonsense conclusions that you expect others to salute, when we don't.

As I have indicated, YOU have repeatedly stated what you think, and then when you're called on it you cry, "nuh uh! That's not me!"

And then you've shown yourself to be utterly incapable of engaging honest discussion by referring to "lies" that don't exist. My disagreeing with you, and doing so vehemently, does not constitute "lies" on my part, but your claim of these "lies" shows you to be a reprehensible child lacking the ethic to actually 'debate' in the first place. I'm also not your "Dude", and I don't think anything of you at all.

You're participating in a thread discussion in which you've been repeatedly called on nonsense, false claims and inconsistency in that discussion, not to mention your own demonstration of an ideology entirely hostile to this country's principles. That's not anyone else's burden but your own. I suggest you deal with it, or move on. Whining about what you yourself have done is not one of the real choices.
 
Last edited:

The opinion of the framers nowhere indicates that the states lost, or gave up, their sovereignty. We never transitioned from being a federal government formed by confederation of the states, to a national government of singular sovereign authority dictating to the states the terms of their membership, and we reject such now.

Nowhere is your unsupported opinion in evidence among the framers, and Madison only argued for that to happen at the Constitutional Convention, via his Virginia Plan, but that Virginia Plan was rejected in its entirety, with no part of it being shared by those Framers, and nothing being utilized in the "Frame".
 
Last edited:

Actually everything about the Constitution indicates that the States damn well gave up some of their own independence and what you keep calling sovereignty to ratify the document and accept everything in it as part of the official structure of the way government operates in the USA. They signed the contract and accepted the terms. And some of those terms provided powers to the national government which by their very nature limit their own powers.
 

Well, no, nothing about the Constitution actually indicates anything like that, because the Constitution only constructs the fiction known as the federal government, which was formed by the federation of the states.

While the states ceded certain of their authorities to the federal government, that is not giving up, nor ending, their sovereignty.

The states did not "sign a contract", they signed a compact, which is the joint unification of the several sovereign states. The federal government was not a signatory to that compact, but rather was created thereby.

Nowhere in that compact is there any indication whatsoever of forfeiting their ability to leave, nor do they lose their sovereignty, and IN FACT the U.S. Supreme Court indicated in Pollards Lessee that the state sovereignty is in no way diminished by having entered that compact.

What the states accepted is how the government operates "while in the USA", but that does not forever bind them to being in the USA. Also it does not compel them to accept how the government is operating, no longer in accord with the Constitution.

Nothing in that compact, not anywhere, compels them to accept those terms when they choose to no longer be a part of the union.
 
Well, no, nothing about the Constitution actually indicates anything like that, because the Constitution only constructs the fiction known as the federal government, which was formed by the federation of the states.

This is where the streetcar stopped a week ago. What you do here - as you have done is several threads in the past - is lead off with a statement that is false on its face and then you proceed to support it with more pontificating based on the lie you started with.
 


This is where your education and ideology betray you. and rather than address my comments directly with factual reference, you instead go ad hominem and make irrelevant comments about me personally. Then you further demonstrate this childishness by claiming that what you don't agree with, and did not disprove in any fashion, constitutes my own "lie".


Whereas not only did I indicate that the states ceded some of their authority, but not their sovereignty, and then provided reference to a Supreme Court decision that indicated just this, that a state's sovereignty was in no way diminished on signing the compact and joining the union, and that no compact could reduce that sovereignty. If it is a "lie" then it is a lie that has been advanced throughout this country's entire history. In truth the only lie being advanced is a current one, indicating that states are not sovereign, so that he federal government might compel its tyranny upon them, and there are many who will have to perish for promoting this lie.

Now, I suggest either you grow the hell up and start behaving as an adult, or go outside and play with the other children.
 
Last edited:

We already had this discussion.

Have you forgotten?

What "ideology" do I now have that you were previously impotent to identify?

For somebody with the propensity to attack and call names you certainly have the thinnest of skins.
 
We already had this discussion.

Have you forgotten?

What "ideology" do I now have that you were previously impotent to identify?

For somebody with the propensity to attack and call names you certainly have the thinnest of skins.


I have repeatedly identified your ideology, as have you.

Yes, we've already had this discussion, and unfortunately you have failed to learn from it, as your ideology still extends far beyond your education.

Your original comment fails to distinguish the difference between "sovereignty" and "independence". And those sovereign states did not sign any "contact" nor "accept the terms", but rather signed a "compact" among similarly sovereign states, and thereby "issued the terms". You've got the wrong history, attached to the wrong country, but perhaps you do have a class action suit against your American public school education for extreme malfeasance.
 
States have no right to cecede from the union seeing as how the majority of buisneses and land in each state is owned by the goverment, and alot of people who live in that state would lose their support from america.
 
do i really have to sit here and read you too arguing about your personall thoughts of eachother? i disagree with trip but im not calling retarded or a liar, grow up the both of you,
 
do i really have to sit here and read you too arguing about your personall thoughts of eachother? i disagree with trip but im not calling retarded or a liar, grow up the both of you,

without being unkind, no you dont have to sit and read what they are both arguing about, you are free to move on another section of the forum.
 
States have no right to cecede from the union seeing as how the majority of buisneses and land in each state is owned by the goverment, and alot of people who live in that state would lose their support from america.

The majority of business is owned by the government? The majority of land is owned by the government? How do you imagine this to be, and how do you imagine this claim is anyway supported by the U.S. Constitution?

Perhaps you need to go back and review previously cited Supreme Court Pollard's Lessee, in which the Court recognized that, despite the Enabling Act of Alabama, reserving to the United States government certain lands, that those lands were still, nonetheless, the sovereign territory of the state of Alabama.

The Court ruled that, "To Alabama belong the navigable waters and soils under them, in controversy in this case, ..... and no compact that might be made between her and the United States could diminish or enlarge these rights."

That means that even if any state were to cede territory to the government, or the government were to acquire any territory, that the state in each case still remains the sovereign authority over that territory, with the federal government only being a temporary curator and tenant.


Furthermore, the federal government has no "support" of its own to give, that it has first not stolen from the states and the people. Each of the states would be far better off to tell the federal government to screw itself, keep its support, they keep their property and their freedom, and then to send the corrupt and conscienceless federales straight to hell.
 
do i really have to sit here and read you too arguing about your personall thoughts of eachother? i disagree with trip but im not calling retarded or a liar, grow up the both of you,

You best make good your hasty exodus out the door, before I catch you unawares and remove that option myself, only to turn you over my knee.

Of course you're most welcome to participate, but even when I started this discussion myself, I do not call the fight. The referees are already assigned here, and I only need to point out the strikes and misses.

Contrary to both your own and Haymaker's impulse, the topic here is not "Trip" but rather secession.
 
Last edited:
I have repeatedly identified your ideology, as have you.

Then it should be relatively easy for you to do so right here then.

What exactly is my "ideology"?
 
Then it should be relatively easy for you to do so right here then.

What exactly is my "ideology"?

You've forgotten? well, I must say, I'm not surprised given how the rules and boundaries, (not to mention 'word definitions') are written "on the fly", and there's no bottom, or safety net either, so its like watching the Flying Walendas with no net whatsoever.


"Ouch, there they go again! Clean up in Isle 5!"

The problem is that the American people have been forced to climb the pole to the trapeze, and the federal government is saying "Don't worry, I've got you!" when nothing actually supports that federal government.

Incidentally this discussion is no more about you, personally, than it is about me, personally. I've only commented about the ideology that your posts have repeatedly exhibited, with particular consideration to the fact that your arguments never seem to involve any recognition of any sort of secured individual rights, nor constraints upon government.

 

At no point in that post of personal pompous pontifications does it identify any "ideology" I subscribe to.
 
At no point in that post of personal pompous pontifications does it identify any "ideology" I subscribe to.

Subscribe? ideology? Methinks thou art dancing upon the head of a pin.

And this coming from the guy who imagines that even one definition of "infringe" necessitates the entire denial of a thing.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…