A religious argument

[the makeout hobo]

My friend posted me an argument that I thought brought up some very good points which I thought I'd share here... Your thoughts on why this is fallacious or unfounded, my Christian friends?

God, if he exists, already knows exactly what sort of miracle it will take to convince me. Since this miracle has not already happened, I can only conclude that either God does not exist (in which case, why believe in him?) or God is not omnipotent (in which case, why call him god?) or God doesn't WANT me to believe (in which case, why disagree?).

 

[Helvidius]

My friend posted me an argument that I thought brought up some very good points which I thought I'd share here... Your thoughts on why this is fallacious or unfounded, my Christian friends?

God, if he exists, already knows exactly what sort of miracle it will take to convince me. Since this miracle has not already happened, I can only conclude that either God does not exist (in which case, why believe in him?) or God is not omnipotent (in which case, why call him god?) or God doesn't WANT me to believe (in which case, why disagree?).

Perhaps God wants you to spend eternity in hell.

 

[Cephus]

It's a perfectly valid argument, one that theists won't address because they can't address it. If God has all the omni properties (omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence), there is no way that you could not believe, it would have been proven to you. No proof clearly disproves the most common version of God.

 

[AndrewC23]

Of course there is no god if there was a god then Africa wouldn't be so ****ty

 

[Cephus]

Of course there is no god if there was a god then Africa wouldn't be so ****ty

Half the reason why Africa is so screwed up is because of the people who pretend to be spokesholes for God, especially the idiot in the funny hat in the Vatican.

 

[AndrewC23]

Still if there was a god he wouldn't allow people to be starving and have aids and malaria rampant througout the entire continent not to mention tapeworms and other diseases in their drinking water droughts...these are all things that really have nothing to do with The Pope sure he was dumb and told people to not wear condoms but I highly doubt that a lot of people in Africa have the money to buy condoms

 

[iamitter]

Still if there was a god he wouldn't allow people to be starving and have aids and malaria rampant througout the entire continent not to mention tapeworms and other diseases in their drinking water droughts...these are all things that really have nothing to do with The Pope sure he was dumb and told people to not wear condoms but I highly doubt that a lot of people in Africa have the money to buy condoms

We literally rain condoms on Africa.

 

[AndrewC23]

We literally rain condoms on Africa.

Still haha there is a lot more to worry about in Africa than just aids which can still be spread even with condoms

 

[StillBallin75]

We literally rain condoms on Africa.

That would require an aerial condom-dispersal system.

 

[AndrewC23]

We literally rain condoms on Africa.

Also I don't think you realize how large Africa is because like five U.S.A.'s can fit inside of it

 

[other]

My friend posted me an argument that I thought brought up some very good points which I thought I'd share here... Your thoughts on why this is fallacious or unfounded, my Christian friends?

God, if he exists, already knows exactly what sort of miracle it will take to convince me. Since this miracle has not already happened, I can only conclude that either God does not exist (in which case, why believe in him?) or God is not omnipotent (in which case, why call him god?) or God doesn't WANT me to believe (in which case, why disagree?).

Maybe God purposefully lets you choose whether or not you are "convinced" of His existence. In other words, given the premise that he knows exactly what would convince you beyond a shadow of a doubt, He doesn't make that happen because that would be comparable to Him "forcing" you to follow Him. Leaving the whole issue a little ambiguous, the ball's in your court, so to speak.

 

[iamitter]

That would require an aerial condom-dispersal system.

Drop 'em from planes

 

[iamitter]

Also I don't think you realize how large Africa is because like five U.S.A.'s can fit inside of it

Actually only 3.075

It's a problem, but we send a TON of condoms to africa. I think south africa alone got 450 million last year.

 

[Ikari]

Also I don't think you realize how large Africa is because like five U.S.A.'s can fit inside of it

More like 3.1

 

[StillBallin75]

Actually only 3.075

It's a problem, but we send a TON of condoms to africa. I think south africa alone got 450 million last year.

Anyway, I just got to this thread and I'm wondering how a religious argument turned to a discussion of giving condoms to Africa.

 

[iamitter]

Anyway, I just got to this thread and I'm wondering how a religious argument turned to a discussion of giving condoms to Africa.

I think it has something to do with aerial dispersions.

 

[the makeout hobo]

Maybe God purposefully lets you choose whether or not you are "convinced" of His existence. In other words, given the premise that he knows exactly what would convince you beyond a shadow of a doubt, He doesn't make that happen because that would be comparable to Him "forcing" you to follow Him. Leaving the whole issue a little ambiguous, the ball's in your court, so to speak.

But he knows exactly what experiences would lead me to believe or not believe. He knows exactly what effect every experience in my life would have, and whether the sum of them will make me believe or not believe. Yes, I have free will, but he knows beforehand what the outcome would be. And if I spend eternity in Hell because he didn't give me enough evidence, that's not my fault

 

[other]

But he knows exactly what experiences would lead me to believe or not believe. He knows exactly what effect every experience in my life would have, and whether the sum of them will make me believe or not believe. Yes, I have free will, but he knows beforehand what the outcome would be. And if I spend eternity in Hell because he didn't give me enough evidence, that's not my fault

Yes, but him knowing isn't the same as him choosing for you.

So if you still have the free will you still have the choice, even if he knows what you'll do beforehand. You're the one who evaluates the evidence (or whatever) for yourself; even if he knows how you'll decide it is still left to you.

 

[iamitter]

Yes, but him knowing isn't the same as him choosing for you.

So if you still have the free will you still have the choice, even if he knows what you'll do beforehand. You're the one who evaluates the evidence (or whatever) for yourself; even if he knows how you'll decide it is still left to you.

Yes, but if he knows the amount of evidence needed to affirm his existence, why is he not releasing that data?

 

[whysoserious]

Yes, but him knowing isn't the same as him choosing for you.

So if you still have the free will you still have the choice, even if he knows what you'll do beforehand. You're the one who evaluates the evidence (or whatever) for yourself; even if he knows how you'll decide it is still left to you.

Is God omniscient?

 

[other]

Yes, but if he knows the amount of evidence needed to affirm his existence, why is he not releasing that data?

:shrug: Maybe he has, it's just up to the individual to accept or reject it.

Like I mentioned before, if enough of the "data" was given to the point that he knows you'll accept it without any doubt, it isn't much of a choice. So there is just enough given to leave the matter in doubt... i.e. with the requirement of faith being necessary to fill the gap between uncertainty and absolute certainty.

The bible, for instance, mentions the requirement of faith. If it was already an absolute certainty, why have the faith requirement?

 

[other]

Is God omniscient?

How should I know? What do you think?

I am discussing the subject under the premise that he is, if that's what you're asking (the premise set by the OP).

 

[iamitter]

:shrug: Maybe he has, it's just up to the individual to accept or reject it.

Like I mentioned before, if enough of the "data" was given to the point that he knows you'll accept it without any doubt, it isn't much of a choice. So there is just enough given to leave the matter in doubt... i.e. with the requirement of faith being necessary to fill the gap between uncertainty and absolute certainty.

I failed to receive god's fax from heaven.

No, but really, I've never seen or heard anything that would make me believe god exists. Until I was ten, I went to church with my parents, prayed (never got an answer) and eventually thought, wait, why in the world am I doing this?
I couldn't give myself one good reason.

 

[the makeout hobo]

Belief is binary. I either believe or I don't believe. I will only believe if God gives me sufficient information. This is true of everyone, some people have lower thresholds of belief than others. It's up to God whether he gives me enough information. In this context he give you enough information so that you believe, but he didn't me.

 

[other]

I failed to receive god's fax from heaven.

No, but really, I've never seen or heard anything that would make me believe god exists. Until I was ten, I went to church with my parents, prayed (never got an answer) and eventually thought, wait, why in the world am I doing this?
I couldn't give myself one good reason.

Can't say that I have either. But the whole point I was making was that he doesn't "make" anyone believe anything -- instead, there's a mechanism which involves a combination of "doubt" and "faith" (for lack of more precise words).

The whole faith/doubt mechanism involves the choice of the individual; if logical thought or pure empirical observation could carry you the whole way to God, then the argument made in the OP would apply. But I don't assume that that is the case -- as has been mentioned, faith's a requirement, and it is what posits individual choice into the equation.

Hope that made sense, I'm using words loosely because I can't think of regular english terms to represent them.