A Question To Conservatives That Want To Ban All Abortions

[Patriotic Voter]

I've been debating abortion since the 90s and I have only encountered maybe 3-4 pro-lifers who think ALL abortions should be banned. Those people are even against abortion for emergency situations like ectopic pregnancies.

Elvira is one of them. She would rather die than get an abortion to save her own life, citing religious reasons.

 

[Deuce]

Nah, they aren't lying. They know that in that case, both humans will die if an abortion isn't performed.

Sorry, I was speaking more generally, the whole "exceptions for rape and incest" are a completely fake position invented to look like they're trying to compromise. There's no person who both thinks abortion is murder and also thinks its ok to do some of the time.

In the medical emergency cases, you're right. They're pro-death. They want the mother to die. Some of them will lie about that, though, pretending that the pregnancy isn't actually deadly, that the whole medical industry is just lying to them, I guess.

 

[Josie]

Sorry, I was speaking more generally, the whole "exceptions for rape and incest" are a completely fake position invented to look like they're trying to compromise. There's no person who both thinks abortion is murder and also thinks its ok to do some of the time.

There are many people who know that abortion is the killing of a human and are fine with it in some cases. Some of those people are pro-life. People who call abortion "murder" don't understand the law.

In the medical emergency cases, you're right. They're pro-death. They want the mother to die.

Some of them will lie about that, though, pretending that the pregnancy isn't actually deadly, that the whole medical industry is just lying to them, I guess.

Yes, those people are idiots.


I'm very pro-life, but also know that there has to be exceptions. I'm also pro-assisted suicide, though, so I might be a weird niche in the pro-life community.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Conservatives who claim to want exceptions to an abortion ban are just lying because they know it's less palatable for them to admit they think that 12 year old should be forced to carry her rapist's child to term.

and you say this because you're a mind reader? or because you're projecting your own flawed opinions? take your pick

 

[Deuce]

There are many people who know that abortion is the killing of a human and are fine with it in some cases. Some of those people are pro-life. People who call abortion "murder" don't understand the law.





Yes, those people are idiots.


I'm very pro-life, but also know that there has to be exceptions. I'm also pro-assisted suicide, though, so I might be a weird niche in the pro-life community.

I don't understand. How does one reconcile the idea that a fetus is a human baby and then also decide it's ok to kill it because the father is a rapist? You wouldn't say the same about a four year old.

 

[Josie]

I don't understand. How does one reconcile the idea that a fetus is a human baby and then also decide it's ok to kill it because the father is a rapist?

Ask the pro-choicers who also say it.

My opinion -- there are obviously two humans involved in pregnancy. The health of both humans is important. The lives of both humans is important. When one of those humans' mental or physical health will be catastrophically affected by the pregnancy, then important decisions need to be made in terms of continuing it. Those are rare circumstances.

I'm completely against the vast majority of abortions -- elective abortions -- where there are no health issues involved at all.

You wouldn't say the same about a four year old.

Of course not. Neither would the pro-choicers who admit that a ZEF is a human.

 

[Deuce]

Ask the pro-choicers who also say it.

Same issue. If they don't think the fetus is a human baby, why would they care why its being terminated?

That's my entire point here. It's a completely nonsensical idea invented purely to give a sense of compromise.

My opinion -- there are obviously two humans involved in pregnancy. The health of both humans is important. The lives of both humans is important. When one of those humans' mental or physical health will be catastrophically affected by the pregnancy, then important decisions need to be made in terms of continuing it. Those are rare circumstances. I'm completely against elective abortions where there are no health issues involved at all.

I guess I just can't wrap my head around the idea that it's ok to kill a baby because giving birth would be stressful to the mother.

 

[Josie]

Same issue. If they don't think the fetus is a human baby, why would they care why its being terminated?

Many pro-choicers DO say that a fetus is a human. (They won't use the word "baby".)

That's my entire point here. It's a completely nonsensical idea invented purely to give a sense of compromise.

It's not, as I just showed you.

I guess I just can't wrap my head around the idea that it's ok to kill a baby because giving birth would be stressful to the mother.

You're pro-choice so not sure why you can't wrap your head around it.

You're downplaying my opinion. It's not about stress --- every mother has stress when giving birth. I'm talking about catastrophic mental or physical effects (e.g. a 10 year old incest victim).

 

[Patriotic Voter]

I don't understand. How does one reconcile the idea that a fetus is a human baby and then also decide it's ok to kill it because the father is a rapist? You wouldn't say the same about a four year old.

Fetuses are not babies. Everyone who calls them babies regarding abortion is lying. Pregnant women say, "I am having a baby!" They say, "We need to pick out a name for the baby." They do NOT say, "I will have my baby aborted."

 

[Lursa]

Many pro-choicers DO say that a fetus is a human. (They won't use the word "baby".)



It's not, as I just showed you.


You're pro-choice so not sure why you can't wrap your head around it.

You're downplaying my opinion. It's not about stress --- every mother has stress when giving birth. I'm talking about catastrophic mental or physical effects (e.g. a 10 year old incest victim).

So the govt should have the right to determine the level of trauma and horror the woman suffered for her? And the govt and pro-life supporters would wait until she's suffering this and further harmed...to meet their level of satisfaction...before allowing her an abortion?

That IMO is disgusting and inhumane. It's like, "well, let's just throw the dice and see how she handles it." It's a clear and disrespectful valuation of the unborn over women.

There's no justification for that, it's horrible...so I'm sure you won't have one.

 

[Josie]

Fetuses are not babies. Everyone who calls them babies regarding abortion is lying. Pregnant women say, "I am having a baby!" They say, "We need to pick out a name for the baby." They do NOT say, "I will have my baby aborted."

Why do you think women don't say "I will have my baby aborted"?

 

[Patriotic Voter]

Why do you think women don't say "I will have my baby aborted"?

Because it is not a baby.

 

[Josie]

Because it is not a baby.

......to them. To women who do want a child, it is a baby. Right?

 

[Patriotic Voter]

......to them. To women who do want a child, it is a baby. Right?

They call it a baby out of maternal love. It is their child.

On the abortion subject, they are all embryos and fetuses, NOT babies.

 

[Josie]

They call it a baby out of maternal love. It is their child.

On the abortion subject, they are all embryos and fetuses, NOT babies.

....unless the person talking about them wants them to live.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

....unless the person talking about them wants them to live.

Nobody who calls an unwanted offspring a baby prior to birth actually cares what happens to it later. If they did, they would support every single possible way to help unwanted babies have very good and productive lives from birth to death. Instead, they only say all unwanted offspring must be born just to be alive, period - no plans to help them, just the simple fact that they were born is enough for them.

 

[Josie]

Nobody who calls an unwanted offspring a baby prior to birth actually cares what happens to it later.

Untrue --- as has been repeatedly explained to you.

If they did, they would support every single possible way to help unwanted babies have very good and productive lives from birth to death.

Do YOU support every single possible way to help unwanted babies have a very good and productive life from birth to death?

Instead, they only say all unwanted offspring must be born just to be alive, period - no plans to help them, just the simple fact that they were born is enough for them.

Literally hundreds of thousands of charities and churches help those in need every single day of the year. Are all of those charities and churches full of ONLY pro-choicers? You can't think of a single one pro-life charity?

 

[Patriotic Voter]

Untrue -- as has been repeatedly explained to you.

Nobody has proven the Republican Party and Libertarian Party platforms include raising taxes on the rich to increase the amount of benefit money pregnant, poor, and disable citizens are eligible for; reduce eligibility criteria; simplify the processes; and close gaps such as the one I fell into for receiving them. Nor did anyone prove either of those parties endorse universal health care, even if they oppose single payer plans, or a guarantee all kids will get formal education no matter what that takes.

Do YOU support every single possible way to help unwanted babies have a very good and productive life from birth to death?

Absolutely.

Literally hundreds of thousands of charities and churches help those in need every single day of the year. Are all of those charities and churches full of pro-choicers?

They help women get basics such as a pack of diapers and crib bedding . . . after making them learn about Catholicsm in hopes they will join the church. And it is only short term, not even enough for the baby's first year. I read about this. They are all anti-choice. Their goal is to harass mentally and physically vulnerable girls and women, scaring them out of getting abortions, and refuse to help anyone who is not a heterosexual Christian adopt any unwanted baby. There is an old thread in this section about how bad CPCs are.

 

[Josie]

Nobody has proven the Republican Party and Libertarian Party platforms include raising taxes on the rich to increase the amount of benefit money pregnant, poor, and disable citizens are eligible for; reduce eligibility criteria; simplify the processes; and close gaps such as the one I fell into for receiving them. Nor did anyone prove either of those parties endorse universal health care, even if they oppose single payer plans, or a guarantee all kids will get formal education no matter what that takes.

Of course your idea of helping others can only be a massive government involved in everyone's lives.

Absolutely.

Really? Every single possible thing you could do? Looks to me like you have a computer and internet. Why are you paying for such luxuries when you could be giving that money to people less fortunate than you?

They help women get basics such as a pack of diapers and crib bedding . . . after making them learn about Catholicsm in hopes they will join the church. And it is only short term, not even enough for the baby's first year. I read about this. They are all anti-choice. Their goal is to harass mentally and physically vulnerable girls and women, scaring them out of getting abortions, and refuse to help anyone who is not a heterosexual Christian adopt any unwanted baby. There is an old thread in this section about how bad CPCs are.

I cannot eyeroll this hard enough. There are hundreds of thousands of very good charities that aren't harassing anyone and don't deny help to anyone. These are good people who happen to be pro-life. To say that no pro-lifers care about children after birth is just an absolute, stereotypical fabrication based on your own prejudices (which are based on your obvious limited knowledge of real life).

Do you think *I* don't care about my students because I'm pro-life?

 

[Patriotic Voter]

Of course your idea of helping others can only be a massive government involved in everyone's lives.

I have personal experience with this. When I was working, I fell into the "too poor to pay living expenses, but too rich to qualify for government benefits" hole. I tried to become eligible for Medicaid, but was told that requires never having more than $1,500 total - in all of my bank accounts combined - which meant the only way to get it was not have a job. After I left a job that paid $8.50 per hour plus overtime pay, my parents had to give all of my SSI benefits back because Social Security said it was a mistake to send it to me based on my income. So I could only get lower-paying jobs the rest of my life.

Do you want pregnant women to be stuck in this kind of financial position when they don't want babies anyway?

Really? Every single possible thing you could do? Looks to me like you have a computer and internet. Why are you paying for such luxuries when you could be giving that money to people less fortunate than you?

You only asked me if I support all of it, not if I actually do anything.

I am below the poverty line. My mom pays all living expenses via government paychecks designated to me. Any money I can spend with a credit card was actually transferred from her checking account.

 

[Josie]

I have personal experience with this. When I was working, I fell into the "too poor to pay living expenses, but too rich to qualify for government benefits" hole. I tried to become eligible for Medicaid, but was told that requires never having more than $1,500 total - in all of my bank accounts combined - which meant the only way to get it was not have a job. After I left a job that paid $8.50 per hour plus overtime pay, my parents had to give all of my SSI benefits back because Social Security said it was a mistake to send it to me based on my income. So I could only get lower-paying jobs the rest of my life.

Do you want pregnant women to be stuck in this kind of financial position when they don't want babies anyway?

It's not true that you could only get lower-paying jobs for the rest of your life. You'd have to do that if you wanted to get government entitlements, yes. That's one of the major problems. How can anyone get out of poverty when the government only gives you money if you choose lower-paying jobs?

I don't want anyone to go through that. That's why I support quality education to help those kids who are living in poverty (like I was as a kid) get good grades and get a nice-paying job so they don't have to rely on government handouts. I also fully support high-quality sex education to teach kids that they don't have to say yes to sex, but if they choose to, how to do it safely.

You only asked me if I support all of it, not if I actually do anything.

I am below the poverty line. My mom pays all living expenses via government paychecks designated to me. Any money I can spend with a credit card was actually transferred from her checking account.

Please don't answer if it's too personal --- are you able to work at all? Take care of yourself? I know you've said a little bit about your diagnosis, but I was just wondering how much it affects your everyday life. Did you go to college or a trade school for anything?

And...

Do you think *I* don't care about my students because I'm pro-life?

 

[Patriotic Voter]

It's not true that you could only get lower-paying jobs for the rest of your life. You'd have to do that if you wanted to get government entitlements, yes. That's one of the major problems. How can anyone get out of poverty when the government only gives you money if you choose lower-paying jobs?

This is digging into government regulation here, but people would not seek lower paying jobs or reduced hours if the government did not have such a low financial cap on allowed income. Anyone who can't make a living wage should be able to get it, regardless of the person's employment status and, if employed, job salary. We can discuss this further in the appropriate forum section.

I don't want anyone to go through that. That's why I support quality education to help those kids who are living in poverty (like I was as a kid) get good grades and get a nice-paying job so they don't have to rely on government handouts. I also fully support high-quality sex education to teach kids that they don't have to say yes to sex, but if they choose to, how to do it safely.

That is one of my frequent complaints here - low-quality, incomplete sex education. Ohio's sex education law is teaching abstinence only, so my health teacher only said contraception fails sometimes because of "human error." What are the human errors? If we learned the specifics to answer that question and had to watch demonstrations of how to use nonprescription devices, the goal to reduce unwanted pregnancies would be much easier to accomplish for the next generation.

Please don't answer if it's too personal -- are you able to work at all? Take care of yourself? I know you've said a little bit about your diagnosis, but I was just wondering how much it affects your everyday life. Did you go to college or a trade school for anything?

I am able to work, but can't get to a job site. Any job would have to be telecommute. Unfortunately, no disabled adult employment services here will provide free transportation (believe me, I tried). They would not call employers for me either. And I absolutely can't talk on the phone under any circumstances.

And...Do you think I don't care about my students because I'm pro-life?

Of course not. If you did not care about them, you would not be a teacher.

 

[Josie]

Of course not. If you did not care about them, you would not be a teacher.

Do you think there are other pro-life people who care very much about born children?

 

[MrWonka]

Good post. I'm one of the countless millions of conservatives who does NOT wish to ban all abortions and is a long-standing member of the pro-choice tendency.

Well if you voted Republican at all over the last two decades you failed miserably.

 

[MrWonka]

Do you think there are other pro-life people who care very much about born children?

Well, they're constantly trying to undermine welfare, food stamps, and education. They cause global warming and block any attempt to fix the student loan crisis or pass any meaningful legislation that could stop school shootings. They also love unnecessary wars that kill children overseas, steal children from their parents just because they're undocumented... Oh and they regularly run up massive deficits to give tax cuts to people who don't need them forcing future generations to pay off their debt.

So, in short, yeah, I'd say the overwhelming majority of Pro-Life people immediately stop caring about born children the instant it might inconvenience them to do so.