A question for warmers

[flogger]

. I mean...this whole thread supposes that carbon is heating the earth. That everyone 20 years from now will be living with the consequences and in 50 years at the pace we're going the earth may experience very large changes. That's kind of a big deal.

What if those changes will be beneficial ones ? What is it we are still trying to fix anyway now the warming has stopped ? Do you have some kind of template in mind about what the ideal climate should be for everyone and how taxation will create it ? What about the economic consequences for the competitiveness of nations that unilaterily follow this route like Britain already has ?

 

[ttwtt78640]

All are good criticisms of a carbon tax. It's not perfect but it's something that's pretty much agreed to as a good efficient method to make changes to energy consumption.



That's true, which is why you would slowly ramp up the cost over time at predetermined intervals rather than just pass some massive carbon tax on day one. It would allow users of fossil fuels to make long term plans and would also allow time for the development of better technology. If based on an escalating carbon tax the price of burning energy would pretty much reach the cost of alternate sources in say....10 years don't you believe there would be massive investment in alternative sources? Not to mention there would be plans for mass production. One of the issues with competing with fossil fuels is that it's going to be low for the foreseeable future.



This is true but the main reason is it's just more efficient and easier. You would't want to tax say US producers and allow foreign producers to bypass the tax and provide lower prices.


This is a problem as well...a carbon tax isn't a silver bullet and things would have to be worked out. Are there subsidies for cars with higher mpg? Are there subsidies to help install solar panels on your roof? How much of the carbon tax would go for...say tax reductions in other areas and how much used to support the shift to alternate methods.

The main reason I like the carbon tax is that it's direct, it's something you can use to slowly make changes.

To make any changes in taxation, requires much thought about the unintended consequences and, as you mentioned, supporting tariffs on those foreign products/services not subjected to that energy tax. Goofy programs like cash for clunkers did not work and solar credits do not help those that rent. Supporting green alternatives (regardless of viability) is another foolish use of public funds - likely to give us more Solyndras, while allowing the Chinese and others to pollute like crazy to offer cheaper "green" alternatives.

 

[flogger]

It seems like a lot of policies passed by your government are well beyond a carbon tax based on your posts.

My government is the only nation on Earth to sign up to the IPCC diktat that we must reduce CO 2 emissions 80% by 2050. Our tax increases are entirely to assist the facilitation of that end. We are even surcharge taxing our dwindling number of remaining fossil fueled power station on their emissions forcing them into economic insolvency just at the time they are more vitally needed than ever. We are pushing the economic self destruct button on ourselves on the basis of what has turned out to be a load of overhyped green nonsense

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Nobody likes being told what to do. Nobody likes to be punished or rewarded by some entity outside of themselves. If carbon is causing warming though....I find it difficult to find any reason that is more justified. I mean...this whole thread supposes that carbon is heating the earth. That everyone 20 years from now will be living with the consequences and in 50 years at the pace we're going the earth may experience very large changes. That's kind of a big deal.

In the spirit of the OP you are correct. I asked what you would do and you answered. As to what BC is doing though, it seems to me they are more into wealth redistribution through a carbon tax rather than using the money to do things like you suggested such as roof top solar or research into alternative fuels or even putting the money into an account for future use if the AGW predictions came true.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

We had a program done in the early 1990's in which Bush established a cap and trade to curb Acid Rain. We heard all the doom and gloom (mostly from corporate think tanks) predictions but guess what the earth didn't shatter and the economy didn't crash and people didn't end up in the poor house. What did happen is that deadly emissions decreased and (drum roll) the cost was less than expected. We survived with cleaner air! Why not with carbon?

 

[flogger]

We had a program done in the early 1990's in which Bush established a cap and trade to curb Acid Rain. We heard all the doom and gloom (mostly from corporate think tanks) predictions but guess what the earth didn't shatter and the economy didn't crash and people didn't end up in the poor house. What did happen is that deadly emissions decreased and (drum roll) the cost was less than expected. We survived with cleaner air! Why not with carbon?

We are trying it in Britain already taxing the air we breathe and we are in deep economic doo doo because of it. Believe me when I say you really dont want to be emulating our example.

Taxing pollution is one thing CO 2 is quite another

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

We are trying it in Britain already taxing the air we breathe and we are in deep economic doo doo because of it. Believe me when I say you really dont want to be emulating our example.

Taxing pollution is one thing CO 2 is quite another

First, a cap and trade system is different from a carbon tax so you can't say you're doing "the same thing". I see that 8 other EU countries have enacted forms of carbon taxes and I have also read about the different results that have occurred. Perhaps, the UK could learn some lesson from more successful programs.

 

[flogger]

First, a cap and trade system is different from a carbon tax so you can't say you're doing "the same thing". I see that 8 other EU countries have enacted forms of carbon taxes and I have also read about the different results that have occurred. Perhaps, the UK could learn some lesson from more successful programs.

Cap and trade is just a trendy sobriquet for taxation. Dont let the use of more 'user friendly' green jargon blind you to that reality. We arent going to achieve anything other than further reduce our competitiveness with this nonsense. The Indians and Chinese will be laughing all the way to the bank watching us tax our economies to death addressing a problem that no longer exists except in the deluded minds of many Western politicians !

 

[Threegoofs]

Cap and trade is just a trendy sobriquet for taxation. Dont let the use of more 'user friendly' green jargon blind you to that reality. We arent going to achieve anything other than further reduce our competitiveness with this nonsense. The Indians and Chinese will be laughing all the way to the bank watching us tax our economies to death addressing a problem that no longer exists except in the deluded minds of many Western politicians !

You really can't wrap your head around the OP, can you?

 

[flogger]

You really can't wrap your head around the OP, can you?

I'm making the point that commiting economic suicide over bogus claims of future CO 2 calamity solves nothing and is a fair point. I suppose thats a bit too deep for you to understand

 

[Threegoofs]

I'm making the point that commiting economic suicide over bogus claims of future CO 2 calamity solves nothing and is a fair point. I suppose thats a bit too deep for you to understand

You could have just said 'no, I can't comprehend hypotheticals because my views on this are more emotional than rational'.

 

[flogger]

I can't comprehend hypotheticals because my views on this are more emotional than rational'.

That admission was quite unecessary

 

[Threegoofs]

That admission was quite unecessary

I guess quotation marks are confusing to you.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Cap and trade is just a trendy sobriquet for taxation. Dont let the use of more 'user friendly' green jargon blind you to that reality. We arent going to achieve anything other than further reduce our competitiveness with this nonsense. The Indians and Chinese will be laughing all the way to the bank watching us tax our economies to death addressing a problem that no longer exists except in the deluded minds of many Western politicians !

Oh, right. That dreaded word "taxation"! Guess what, I'm not one of those people that think 'all or nothing'. I do understand some things that taxes go toward are wasteful while other things are not and many things are in the eye of the beholder. I happen to believe if a tax and trade system or even any form of a carbon tax system that works well and cuts deadly emissions is not a waste. My health happens to be on the top of those important things to "have" in life. Yep, eye of the beholder.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Cap and trade is just a trendy sobriquet for taxation. Dont let the use of more 'user friendly' green jargon blind you to that reality. We arent going to achieve anything other than further reduce our competitiveness with this nonsense. The Indians and Chinese will be laughing all the way to the bank watching us tax our economies to death addressing a problem that no longer exists except in the deluded minds of many Western politicians !

Oh, and one last point to your post....India has had a carbon tax since 2010 and China plans on having one so your "Western" comment does not apply but don't let facts get in the way.

 

[flogger]

Oh, right. That dreaded word "taxation"! Guess what, I'm not one of those people that think 'all or nothing'. I do understand some things that taxes go toward are wasteful while other things are not and many things are in the eye of the beholder. I happen to believe if a tax and trade system or even any form of a carbon tax system that works well and cuts deadly emissions is not a waste. My health happens to be on the top of those important things to "have" in life. Yep, eye of the beholder.

What 'deadly' emissions would those be then ? Can you cite a scientist or quote a scientific publication that has ever claimed our emissions are 'deadly'. You clearly get your soundbites from sensationalist media sources because calling a benign beneficial naturally occurring gas 'deadly' really is a total crock.

Plants Need CO2 - Carbon Dioxide Emissions - Global Warming Climate Change Facts

 

[flogger]

Oh, and one last point to your post....India has had a carbon tax since 2010 and China plans on having one so your "Western" comment does not apply but don't let facts get in the way.

Dont tell me about the 'benefits' of carbon tax in the UK . I'm living through them already :hitsfan:

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

What 'deadly' emissions would those be then ? Can you cite a scientist or quote a scientific publication that has ever claimed our emissions are 'deadly'. You clearly get your soundbites from sensationalist media sources because calling a benign beneficial naturally occurring gas 'deadly' really is a total crock.

Plants Need CO2 - Carbon Dioxide Emissions - Global Warming Climate Change Facts

Really, you're going to site me a propaganda piece from a 501 (c) (3) non-profit group headed by coal magnates as some kind of "scientific" evidence? Also, the effects it has on plants (which varies accounting to a real scientific journal-Nature) does not address the negative impacts it has on human health. Man-made CO2 being released into the air causes air pollution in the form of smog and acid rain. Specific man made emissions being released in large amounts, including CO2 emissions exacerbates a whole host of health issues having to do with the life function of breathing. I doubt if Corbin Robertson will tell you that though.

 

[Threegoofs]

Rabbit-

You have to realize that flogger is just a pensioner who doesn't want to have to pay for the environmental damage he has caused by contributing to the atmospheric CO2 rise, because the benefits will accrue long after he dies.

Its like someone has a photo of him breaking a window in his youth, and he realizes if he fights it long enough, he won't have to pay for it.

 

[flogger]

Really, you're going to site me a propaganda piece from a 501 (c) (3) non-profit group headed by coal magnates as some kind of "scientific" evidence? Also, the effects it has on plants (which varies accounting to a real scientific journal-Nature) does not address the negative impacts it has on human health. Man-made CO2 being released into the air causes air pollution in the form of smog and acid rain. Specific man made emissions being released in large amounts, including CO2 emissions exacerbates a whole host of health issues having to do with the life function of breathing. I doubt if Corbin Robertson will tell you that though.

What utter BS

I dont care how rich the fossil fuel companies are. You are now trying to argue black is white when it demonstrably isnt so. Do you think the oil companies dont just love green nutjobs and thier terror stories ? It must boost thier bottom line big time when everyone is supposed to believe its all just about to run out and they get the artificial profits boost based on these bogus shortages stories

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

What utter BS

I dont care how rich the fossil fuel companies are. You are now trying to argue black is white when it demonstrably isnt so. Do you think the oil companies dont just love green nutjobs and thier terror stories ? It must boost thier bottom line big time when everyone is supposed to believe its all just about to run out and they get the artificial profits boost based on these bogus shortages stories

Nice strawman but I never mentioned anything about how "rich" the fossil fuel companies are. I made mention of the conflict of interest in your post. Also, the point I was trying to convey has nothing to do with "terror stories". By capping these harmful emissions now we have both long term and short term advantages. The long term having to do with the environment and the short term having to do with the immediate effects man made carbon emissions has on health. I care more about my family's health than someone else's profits and that is the bottom line. It would be more fair for you to counteract with my 'messed' up priorities than throwing in strawmans because it comes down to priorities. That is the main point of this discussion.

 

[flogger]

Nice strawman but I never mentioned anything about how "rich" the fossil fuel companies are. I made mention of the conflict of interest in your post. Also, the point I was trying to convey has nothing to do with "terror stories". By capping these harmful emissions now we have both long term and short term advantages. The long term having to do with the environment and the short term having to do with the immediate effects man made carbon emissions has on health. I care more about my family's health than someone else's profits and that is the bottom line. It would be more fair for you to counteract with my 'messed' up priorities than throwing in strawmans because it comes down to priorities. That is the main point of this discussion.

What harmful emissions ? Modern submariners spend many months at sea in CO2 levels 10-20 times what we have today with no ill effects whatsoever . You've been listening to far too many green scare stories methinks :roll:

 

[mbig]

I found that in the thread you were talking about and ignored it because of your opening and closing paragraphs. I'm looking for civil discussion here like the one I am enjoying with iliveonramen. It does seem this has been discussed in a recent thread though. My life is very busy and this forum is one tiny part of that busy life so I spaced it.

By "civil" you mean starting/Flaming strings like Your: "Are Warmers Mentally ill".
Sure, suggesting 97% (trim it to 80% if you like) of scientists and most of the populous is Mentally ill as well as many others... is NOT Civil discussion.
Perhaps one of My Fact-filled string starts got you at least re-evaluating.

I believe it is too late to stop the Catastrophe that's coming but we can mitigate it by:

1. Even staying in Fossil fuels, Legislate switching Power plants from Coal to Natural Gas. (by 2020 latest)
It's easy to get rid of the worst fuel while we're having a Fracking O&G Boom.
NG creates HALF as much CO2 as Coal, not to mention particulate matter.
We Have ALREADY cut overall CO2 emissions this way
Breathe Easy: Natural Gas Is Lowering CO2 Emissions
and Report: As Natural Gas Displaces Coal, Carbon Emissions Fall | StateImpact Texas

1a. No exports of it either after 2020 to pigs like China.

2. Switch at least the whole National Commercial vehicle fleets to NG from Gasoline as well.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...al-gas-promote-independence-pickens-says.html
Trucks, Buses, and maybe trains too.
Burlington Northern is already experimenting with NG Locomotives.
And eventually go All vehicle NG or electric.

There's no net job loss in switching; in fact a job gain in redone infrastructure.

3. Build a series of Giant Solar plants, financed (as the TVA, etc) by the Government ASAP. (to eventually cut NG too)
I've previously read a SINGLE Gigantic solar plant in the 4 Corners area of the Southwest Could provide 100% of our power needs.
Of course, a series of smaller, but still Very Large, plants across the country would be better/more tactical.
3a. Wind, of course too.

4. Redo the grid to make it more efficient. We need to anyway to protect and update it.
Use superconductive materials prevent loss/wasted power.
The tech exists already.

Europe will gladly follow, they've already Lead us.
China is soot-city and the biggest fly in the ointment.
These pigs are the most ruthless abusers.
The have $1.5 Trillion of Our money yet plead poverty: "we're just developing".
They need to be isolated and embarrassed.

 

[flogger]

I believe it is too late to stop the Catastrophe that's coming

Oh gawd .. not another one .We're all DOOMED I tell ye :scared: Bring out yer dead ....bring out yer dead .... :bomb:

 

[mbig]

Oh gawd .. not another one .We're all DOOMED I tell ye :scared: Bring out yer dead ....bring out yer dead .... :bomb:

To the board and mod staff:

THIS is the Kind of TROLLING that is simply intolerable.
I put up a good faith, comprehensive plan, only to have a Baiting 'response' by an 8 year old torcher.