A question for the anti-war crowd.

[Red_Dave]

Iraq is smaller.

Picture invading Saudi Arabia, the heart of the Islamic world.

Picture U.S. forces occupying Mecca and Medina.

The insurgency in Iraq is NOTHING compared to what it would be in that situation.

Still it hardly counterd terroism did it?

 

[The Real McCoy]

Still it hardly counterd terroism did it?

We're in the middle of a war, a war that's far from over... give it time. If Iraq succeeds at becoming a free nation, which I believe it will, it will (as I've said before) provide an example to the rest of Middle Eastern nations to reform their opressiveness which is a key ingredient in driving terrorism in the first place.

 

[M14 Shooter]

So what terroism did iraq suporrt that was linked to 9/11?

No one ever claimed that there was any.

But then, the war on terror is not limited to the terrorist that perpretrated 9/11, a statment that the Administration has repeated several times.

You're arguing a strawman.

 

[cnredd]

Still it hardly counterd terroism did it?

Just read this and stop sweatin' the small stuff...:roll:

 

[hipsterdufus]

What do you people who oppose the war in Iraq propose we do to combat the problem of terrorism?

That's a fair question. Here' my top 10.

1. Secure ports, nuclear and chemical plants
2. Step up efforts to capture/kill Bin Laden
3. Secure cargo areas of airplanes
4. Find and secure loose Nukes
5. Transfer monetery and manpower resources from Iraq to US
6. Enforce legislation to keep terrorists from purchasing dangerous weapons in US
7. Secure borders
8. Consult more with foreign leaders on terrorism strategies
9. Institute NASA like program geared towards energy independence.
10. Institute recomendations of 9/11 commission

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Some of these are unrealistic, but...

1. Let Palestine have Israel, give the Jews U.S. citizenship, and help the Palestinians establish a democratic state.
2. Slowly withdraw all U.S. troops from the entire Middle East region, staying or returning only if necessary to prevent a humanitarian crisis, and then only as long as necessary.
3. Completely convert to any of a dozen cleaner, more abundant fuels, and end our dependency (and thus interests) on Middle East oil.
4. Get rid of U.S.-led sanctions and embargos that largely contribute to poverty and starvation for the civilians.
5. Establish trust and set a good example in the world by practicing the human rights standards that we preach, even for non-citizens.
6. Condemn specific actions by states, but avoid calling them "evil" and driving their military ambitions forward instead of backward.
7. Measured and appropriate retaliation for specific attacks, not preemptive strikes based on a biased interpretation of intelligence.

LMFAO so basically your solution is giving into their demands and surrendering to O.B.L., why am I not suprised, tell me should we convert to Islam too? And did you really just say that we shouldn't try to prevent attacks but wait until we are attacked to retaliate?

 

[Employee_of_the_Month]

"Exactly why we are in Iraq, to promote a free society giving the people hope and opportunities that never would have existed before. A free Iraq would set an example for the entire Middle East who have constantly lived under oppression and haven't yet gotten a taste of freedom. I agree that it doesn't happen over night, it's something that takes time and dedication."

How are we supposed to give Iraq a free society when we dont even have a free society?
The higher amount of "freedom" held by America's upperclasses and government ( because now we are talking on the political level) was made possible by decades of imperialist slaughter and opression, unless you are willing to do that for iraq in one week, they will never have the power america has any time soon, and thus never the freedom because our "freedom" comes from the power our government has.

Thats the illusion alot of people around the world just cant get with and arent stupid enough to accept. America wants you to have their freedom but not their power even though America's power is where its freedom comes from. So as a result, if you believe the lie that you are going to have freedom like America even though your governemnt is subordinate to theirs, the only freedom you are going to get next to is a puppet government working within American interests.

It isnt as simple as giving a person a McDonalds and the right to walk around half naked to convince them they've got freedom.

 

[The Real McCoy]

"Exactly why we are in Iraq, to promote a free society giving the people hope and opportunities that never would have existed before. A free Iraq would set an example for the entire Middle East who have constantly lived under oppression and haven't yet gotten a taste of freedom. I agree that it doesn't happen over night, it's something that takes time and dedication."

How are we supposed to give Iraq a free society when we dont even have a free society?
The higher amount of "freedom" held by America's upperclasses and government ( because now we are talking on the political level) was made possible by decades of imperialist slaughter and opression, unless you are willing to do that for iraq in one week, they will never have the power america has any time soon, and thus never the freedom because our "freedom" comes from the power our government has.

Thats the illusion alot of people around the world just cant get with and arent stupid enough to accept. America wants you to have their freedom but not their power even though America's power is where its freedom comes from. So as a result, if you believe the lie that you are going to have freedom like America even though your governemnt is subordinate to theirs, the only freedom you are going to get next to is a puppet government working within American interests.

It isnt as simple as giving a person a McDonalds and the right to walk around half naked to convince them they've got freedom.

The freedoms we enjoy here in America are provided by our Constituion that the government must abide by. We have the freedom to speak out against our government whereas in Iraq, before we went in, speaking out against Saddam Hussein was grounds to have your tongue cut off.

 

[Stace]

The freedoms we enjoy here in America are provided by our Constituion that the government must abide by. We have the freedom to speak out against our government whereas in Iraq, before we went in, speaking out against Saddam Hussein was grounds to have your tongue cut off.

But see, that's the problem....not everyone DOES have the freedom to speak out against the government. Military members can be punished for speaking against the government/current administration.....which I find ridiculous, since the men and women of the military are the ones keeping the rest of the country free to say whatever they like.

We've all heard the phrase "Freedom isn't free", and I couldn't agree more.

 

[Caine]

Some of these are unrealistic, but...

1. Let Palestine have Israel, give the Jews U.S. citizenship, and help the Palestinians establish a democratic state.

The rest of your post is just as ridiculous... but I find this was to be especially.

What makes you think Israel doesn't belong to the Israelis?

 

[Comrade Brian]

What do you people who oppose the war in Iraq propose we do to combat the problem of terrorism?

Don't bother the Mid-East, most "terrorists" are fighting just to get the US out of their country, because they were promised liberation and got an occupation army. So staying away is best solution.

 

[akyron]

Stick to attacking those who have attacked us (al Qaeda) and those who have threatened to attack us.

Well by that definition there appears to be a target rich environment indeed..

Sheesh..


Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Muslim:C40B20N4676 “Jihad Is Compulsory.”
Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”
Qur’an 4:90 “For those who join a group between you and whom there is a treaty, or (those who become) weary of fighting you, had Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. Therefore if they withdraw and wage not war, and send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah has not given you a way (to war) against them.” [The purpose of terror is to cause people to become so “weary of fighting” they surrender.]

 

[The Real McCoy]

Don't bother the Mid-East, most "terrorists" are fighting just to get the US out of their country, because they were promised liberation and got an occupation army. So staying away is best solution.

So allow the problem to brew until it overflows out of control? Great idea.

They don't hate us solely because of our occupation of the Middle East.

 

[akyron]

The rest of your post is just as ridiculous... but I find this was to be especially.

What makes you think Israel doesn't belong to the Israelis?

A lack of historical research would be my first guess..


"The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough. "

Hey!! Never-Never land isnt real? Oh well...Whats next? Are you going to tell me now there is no Santa? Whaa!!

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

Nah sorry everybody but it's far too late now, we all have to answer to the Armageddon AmeriKKKa has scripted, there is no way to make every muslim blind to what AmeriKKKa and Great Britain have done, namely kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Think about it, if some crazy dictator carpet bombed the US killing hundreds of thousands of innocent christians and then invaded wouldn't you try and stop them by any means possible, i.e terrorism?

There is as Bush says a war going on, and thanx to him about 60% of the global population are gonna die in Nuclear war, thats what happens when you take REVELATIONS literally.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Nah sorry everybody but it's far too late now, we all have to answer to the Armageddon AmeriKKKa has scripted, there is no way to make every muslim blind to what AmeriKKKa and Great Britain have done, namely kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Do you have evidence for this mass slaughter America has committed?

Think about it, if some crazy dictator carpet bombed the US killing hundreds of thousands of innocent christians and then invaded wouldn't you try and stop them by any means possible, i.e terrorism?

Are you suggesting that our bombs are the ones responsible for all the Iraqi civilian deaths? First of all, the vast majority of these deaths are at the hands of insurgent attacks. Secondly, it's far from "hundreds of thousands" unless you care to prove me otherwise.

There is as Bush says a war going on, and thanx to him about 60% of the global population are gonna die in Nuclear war, thats what happens when you take REVELATIONS literally.

Thanks to Bush, 60% of the world will die in Nuclear war? What led you to this absurd conclusion?

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

http://www.projectcensored.org/censored_2006/#2

Over the past two years, the United States has conducted two major sieges against Fallujah, a city in Iraq. The first attempted siege of Fallujah (a city of 300,000 people) resulted in a defeat for Coalition forces. As a result, the United States gave the citizens of Fallujah two choices prior to the second siege: leave the city or risk dying as enemy insurgents. Faced with this ultimatum, approximately 250,000 citizens, or 83 percent of the population of Fallujah, fled the city.

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[Mickyjaystoned]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_foreign_policy

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

First of all, the vast majority of these deaths are at the hands of insurgent attacks.

This is Bullshit mate, the first insurgent attacks in Iraq weren't until well after the outbreak of war, remember the troops were fighting the Elite Guard before they took baghdad, insurgency was not in Iraq until America finished carpet bombing (which killed the majority of civilians), then when the ameicans were just executing civilians and sniping them and blowing up thier houses during the Invasion insurgents had a cause to fight for.



Have you got any factual evidence to support your claim??

Do you have evidence for this mass slaughter America has committed?

 

[The Real McCoy]

This is Bullshit mate, the first insurgent attacks in Iraq weren't until well after the outbreak of war, remember the troops were fighting the Elite Guard before they took baghdad, insurgency was not in Iraq until America finished carpet bombing (which killed the majority of civilians), then when the ameicans were just executing civilians and sniping them and blowing up thier houses during the Invasion insurgents had a cause to fight for.

American soldiers and bombs are not responsible for most Iraqi deaths, terrorist bombings are. I realize that our occupation is the reason for the insurgency but you completely fail to acknowledge the hundreds of thousands of innocents killed in Iraq before we even invaded. Estimates put the figure at 400,000 bodies found in mass graves at the hands of Hussein's regime. This doesn't even include the hundreds of thousands more who died in the Iraq-Iran conflict.

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/pressreleases/20040224_mass_graves.html

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/926912/posts

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Have you got any factual evidence to support your claim??

Most credible sources put the Iraqi civilian death toll estimate around 30,000. The 100,000 number is an extremely rough guess and is most likely inaccurate. Even if it were, it still doesn't compare to the number killed under Hussein.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

I realize that our occupation is the reason for the insurgency but you completely fail to acknowledge the hundreds of thousands of innocents killed in Iraq before we even invaded. Estimates put the figure at 400,000 bodies found in mass graves at the hands of Hussein's regime.

What has that got to do with any of us?

I know Hussein was no ****ing saint but come on at least put both sides accross, what about the trade sanctions imposed by America on Iraq after Gulf war 1 that is said to have contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's, i think it is a silly argument, we shoudn't be justifying anyones actions here, all we can do is feel remorse and show our compassion to the servicemen who are used and abused and to the millions who have suffered at the hands of corrupt leaders, be they american, Iraqi, Cambodian, Korean, Bosnian etc.

War is a by product of greed, why after millenia on this planet do we still have to die at war, because our leaders want to fight, it is not i that wants to fight?

How did this unspeakable evil slip into the world

This is all i have to say on the matter, i refuse to accept any justificatrion for war of any kind, simple as that!

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011203/cortright

 

[The Real McCoy]

What has that got to do with any of us?

I know Hussein was no ****ing saint but come on at least put both sides accross, what about the trade sanctions imposed by America on Iraq after Gulf war 1 that is said to have contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's, i think it is a silly argument, we shoudn't be justifying anyones actions here, all we can do is feel remorse and show our compassion to the servicemen who are used and abused and to the millions who have suffered at the hands of corrupt leaders, be they american, Iraqi, Cambodian, Korean, Bosnian etc.

War is a by product of greed, why after millenia on this planet do we still have to die at war, because our leaders want to fight, it is not i that wants to fight?

War has been necessary to attain peace.

This is all i have to say on the matter, i refuse to accept any justificatrion for war of any kind, simple as that!

Classic delusional pacifist. Until you decide to come out of the clouds of fantasy land, I have no desire to debate with you anymore.

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

War has been necessary to attain peace.

Oh yeah how stupid of me i must be blind but just where is this peace?

That is the biggest fallacy in human history, war does not bring peace, love brings peace, respect brings peace compassion brings peace, war brings death disease and disaster.

There have been wars since recorded history began, why has there been no peace yet?

Why are we still fighting??

Classic delusional pacifist. Until you decide to come out of the clouds of fantasy land, I have no desire to debate with you anymore.

Label me what you will but why don't you explain to me how you come to this assumption to describe my internet alias.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Oh yeah how stupid of me i must be blind but just where is this peace?

That is the biggest fallacy in human history, war does not bring peace, love brings peace, respect brings peace compassion brings peace, war brings death disease and disaster.

There have been wars since recorded history began, why has there been no peace yet?

Why are we still fighting??

Well, Western Europe has been pretty peaceful since the end of World War 2. Are you suggesting that we should have never gone to war with Germany and allowed Hitler to conquer Europe, slaughtering millions of more jews and other non-Aryan peoples? That's a perfect example of why war was necessary to attain peace.

Label me what you will but why don't you explain to me how you come to this assumption to describe my internet alias.

Nobody likes war. War is hell. But unfortunately, war is sometimes inevitable.

"This is all i have to say on the matter, i refuse to accept any justificatrion for war of any kind, simple as that!"

To that I refer you to my above statement on Nazi Germany.