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A question for Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion members only.

Chuz Life said:
Ok,... I'm at a loss for words now.

So I'll just say thanks.
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God himself orders the unborn to be killed when the situation justifies it, even when a mother's life is not in danger. Also, scripture only gives a punishment for an assailant harming the mother and causing an abortion, but not a punishment for a woman who chooses to abort.

The Book on Enoch hints to a pro-life position in it's account of God punishing the leaders of the nephilim for specific crimes, but I'm not sure many people would give that source the time of day.
 
And look! Here, the Bible orders forced abortion in the case of infidelity (if the woman's not guilty, I guess the abortion potion magically won't work):

Numbers, Chapter 5:

5:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
5:12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
5:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
5:15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
5:16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
5:17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
5:18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
5:19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
5:20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
5:21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
5:22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
5:23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
5:24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
5:25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
5:26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
5:29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
5:30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
5:31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.



This, of course, was back in the day when God's motto seemed to be, "Never use a dozen words, when ten dozen would suffice."
He became a good bit less garrulous as time went on.
 
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1069 said:
And look! Here, the Bible orders forced abortion in the case of infidelity (if the woman's not guilty, I guess the abortion potion magically won't work):

Numbers, Chapter 5:

5:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
5:12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
5:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
5:15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
5:16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
5:17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
5:18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
5:19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
5:20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
5:21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
5:22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
5:23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
5:24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
5:25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
5:26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
5:29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
5:30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
5:31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.
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All true, but you're looking for just any reason to support abortion. You begin with the answers you want and devise the questions to suit. Your's is not an honest, heart felt deep religious conviction. You're just tossing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. That's the difference.
 
1069 said:
And look! Here, the Bible orders forced abortion in the case of infidelity (if the woman's not guilty, I guess the abortion potion magically won't work): ,snip>
.
Click to expand...

And there goes the ****ing thread....

It would be so great if we could moderate threads threads of our own making.
 
1069 said:
And look! Here, the Bible orders forced abortion in the case of infidelity (if the woman's not guilty, I guess the abortion potion magically won't work):

Numbers, Chapter 5:

5:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
5:12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
5:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
5:15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
5:16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
5:17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
5:18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
5:19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
5:20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
5:21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
5:22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
5:23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
5:24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
5:25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
5:26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
5:27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
5:28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
5:29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
5:30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
5:31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.



This, of course, was back in the day when God's motto seemed to be, "Never use a dozen words, when ten dozen would suffice."
He became a good bit less garrulous as time went on.
Click to expand...

Where does it mention abortion?
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Interesting assumption - why'd you come to that conclusion?

I believe at this point you realize that's not the case - not everyone believes the same thing about this, yeah?
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Science can't accurately determine when life begins if it's not at conception. The only real reason to attempt to establish a time other than conception is to define a period of time in which it can be morally or ethically terminated. Since science can not accurately determine when life begins other than at conception, then it should default to at conception.
 
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1069 said:
I'm an eighth grade dropout, so I didn't ever get to take any biology classes like you lucky people. We were still doing "earth science" when I left. :lol:
So please, enlighten me: does the fetus breathe out of the woman's belly button, or out of her vagina?
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What does breathing have to do with it?
 
mac said:
Science can't accurately determine when life begins if it's not at conception. The only real reason to attempt to establish a time other than conception is to define a period of time in which it can morally or ethically terminated. Since science can not accurately determine when life begins other than at conception, then it should default to at conception.
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I think the science is more accurate on the fact that a life begins at conception than you may be aware of.

When I was in the Marine Corps and we would learn things like 'fire discipline' (shooting range) we once practiced a technique called a "converging line of fire." Typically, when a squad or platoon is on patrol, we maintain a good distance between each man in the event that there is a grenade attack or artillary,... to minimise casualties. (there is a point to be made here)

Endemic in this formation is the fact that when a squad engages in a firefight, everyone is so spread out that not everyone is clear on where or what to shoot at. You can (conceivably) have 100 men shooting at 100 targets.

With a "converging line of fire" one person selects the target and all or several weapons are trained on that point.

(is the picture coming into focus yet?)

How does this apply to conception and the OP of this thread, you may ask?

Mac, you mentioned the life cycle. Conception is just one point in the life cycle which as we all know is a circle and someone could pick just about any point and claim that it is the one that begins a life. So, it takes more than that.

It's late and I can't put all the details and hyper links into it that I would like to,... but when you put all the data on the table,.. DNA, the life cycle, aging, epidemiology (science of tracing things back to their cause), IVF and the simple science of observation. All of which can be duplicated and re-duplicated in a scientifically controlled environment.

All of those aciences converge on one and the same point to establish the one moment and event that begins a human life.

Conception.

You, I and everyone else can trace our lives back to that point but no further,.... the science of againg has determined that's when an individual's aging begins,... we know without any doubt that a person's DNA is created at conception,.... etc.

They all converge on that one point.

So, really science can and does accurately determine when an individual's life "begins."
 
It's certainly not my intention to show that life starts at some other point, I agree that life begins at conception.
 
mac said:
It's certainly not my intention to show that life starts at some other point, I agree that life begins at conception.
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Thanks for all that you do!

Sorry for all the spelling and grammar errors
 
I actually believe that a person’s life begins at implantation. I tried to start a thread on this awhile back but only got one response (that I saw) with no follow up to try to convince me that it starts at conception.

The biggest problem I have with using new DNA creation as a marker for the beginning of a person’s life is that numerous people could be created with that new DNA. If I cloned myself right now, that new person was created at the moment I was cloned - not at my own conception.

In any case, I do still oppose abortions based only on the fact that the fetus is a person. There is no other reason to oppose abortion. If it isn’t a person, why would anyone care?
 
1069 said:
I'm an eighth grade dropout, so I didn't ever get to take any biology classes like you lucky people. We were still doing "earth science" when I left. :lol:
So please, enlighten me: does the fetus breathe out of the woman's belly button, or out of her vagina?
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it may not breath, in the sense that you're using the word, but it does respirate
 
thatguymd said:
I actually believe that a person’s life begins at implantation. I tried to start a thread on this awhile back but only got one response (that I saw) with no follow up to try to convince me that it starts at conception.

The biggest problem I have with using new DNA creation as a marker for the beginning of a person’s life is that numerous people could be created with that new DNA. If I cloned myself right now, that new person was created at the moment I was cloned - not at my own conception.

In any case, I do still oppose abortions based only on the fact that the fetus is a person. There is no other reason to oppose abortion. If it isn’t a person, why would anyone care?
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I've visited your thread several times MD and have not responded to your post simply because implantation follows so soon after conception as it's hardly worth it to me,... to try to argue any points against using it as the start of a persons life.

That said,... it is still very significant in some ways and if you want me to necro that thread,... I'll address some of my concerns there for you.
 
Chuz Life said:
I've visited your thread several times MD and have not responded to your post simply because implantation follows so soon after conception as it's hardly worth it to me,... to try to argue any points against using it as the start of a persons life.

That said,... it is still very significant in some ways and if you want me to necro that thread,... I'll address some of my concerns there for you.
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Go right ahead and reply in that thread or this one. I'd obviously be interested in your thoughts. I posted the thread in hopes of getting more detail as to why people believe that a person's life begins at conception.
 
thatguymd said:
Go right ahead and reply in that thread or this one. I'd obviously be interested in your thoughts. I posted the thread in hopes of getting more detail as to why people believe that a person's life begins at conception.
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Thanks MD,... I will once all the other craps slows down.
 
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