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a question for free-marketers (1 Viewer)

Red_Dave

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Ive recently heard the argument that its preferable to leave the government out of the economy as leaveing things to the market and its infailaible wisdom will be more beneficial. The problem i see in this is that its unable to adress two problems

1 The capatalist system is essentially unjust, each company is dependant on a work force. In most cases this work force is at best short of cash and at worst starveing. Much of this workforce should be getting a primary level of education rather than working.The market will not adress this because capatalism enivitably puts people before profit.

2 The market will produce whats beneficial for those at the top not beneficial for humanity as a whole. Renewable energy would do humanity a huge service but its difficult to make money from. Instruments designed for torture however are extremely lucrative.

Why promote free-market idealogy if it is unable to deal with this problems?
 
Ive recently heard the argument that its preferable to leave the government out of the economy as leaveing things to the market and its infailaible wisdom will be more beneficial. The problem i see in this is that its unable to adress two problems

1 The capatalist system is essentially unjust, each company is dependant on a work force. In most cases this work force is at best short of cash and at worst starveing. Much of this workforce should be getting a primary level of education rather than working.The market will not adress this because capatalism enivitably puts people before profit.

2 The market will produce whats beneficial for those at the top not beneficial for humanity as a whole. Renewable energy would do humanity a huge service but its difficult to make money from. Instruments designed for torture however are extremely lucrative.

Why promote free-market idealogy if it is unable to deal with this problems?

I am not a laissez-fairest (fairy?) by any means, but I think you are making questionable assumptions in your hypothesis.

The first paragraph assumes an over supply of labor and easy substitution. In these cases the natural forces of capitalism will drive down wages to the lowest possible subsistance level, barring external regulation. However, where there is a shortage of labor and difficult substitution, those same forces will create a premium for labor, and increase wages above what would be the most cost effective economic utility.

I don't follow the reasoning of the second paragraph. If you invent a way to power cars from water, I feel confident to say it would be pretty easy to make huge amounts of money. I'm not sure why torture instruments are more profitable than anything else, unless you are refering to the tendency of the govt to overpay for military (and about every other) related items.
 
You misunderstand what the free-market is. A free market is a market that either features competition or a low barrier to entry into the market. Governments are a key part of generating the environment for free markets. They are certainly capable of destroying a free market, but they also can break up cartels and illegal monopolies to promote the free market. One day people will realize that Adam Smith spoke out against government granted monopolies not government involvement in the market itself.
 
Ive recently heard the argument that its preferable to leave the government out of the economy as leaveing things to the market and its infailaible wisdom will be more beneficial. The problem i see in this is that its unable to adress two problems

1 The capatalist system is essentially unjust, each company is dependant on a work force. In most cases this work force is at best short of cash and at worst starveing. Much of this workforce should be getting a primary level of education rather than working.The market will not adress this because capatalism enivitably puts people before profit.

2 The market will produce whats beneficial for those at the top not beneficial for humanity as a whole. Renewable energy would do humanity a huge service but its difficult to make money from. Instruments designed for torture however are extremely lucrative.

Why promote free-market idealogy if it is unable to deal with this problems?

Firstly, you have to define your value of justice, considering that justice is a relatively subjective term.
Secondly, it is true some people do not choose to invest in education under capitalism. They should be given that freedom. If they so want to spend their money elsewhere then they should be allowed to. However, if they want to invest in education they have that choice, granted it may not be a cheap choice, but the reasons for that are many.
Bouncing around a bit, you mention starving workers, the problem with this, is that history shows the best way to pull a nation out of poverty, is a market economy, yes other factors will be needed, but a market economy can lead to sustainable growth for the long term. China and India as examples. This also addresses your argument about capitalism only benefitting those at the top.
Capitalism also benefits those in the lowest rungs of society. By providing the choice of what to do with ones money, the choice to invest in education, and we also create greater social mobility, in that we reward merit and not political alignment as is often the case in large bureaucratic governments.
However, this does not mean government does nothing. There are ways government can help protect the people from negative externalities and help promote positive externalities. Market-based pollution permits, and patents are a few of the things government can help do to ensure the strongest economy possible.
 
1. Where are all these short of cash, starving workforces, who lack primary education, that all of you socialists keep talking about? They don't seem to be in most capitalist countries. Sure, there are poor people here in the USA, but most are that way for soem other social reason, not because the big bad capitalists made them that way. Only stupid capitalists (of which ther are many right now) puts "profits before people" (I assume thats what you meant). A smart capitalist knows that if he invests some of his profit back into his workers that he can get a "return on investment" that can rival any other investment he can make. Fortunatly for me the company I work for does that and is doing quite well while others in the same field are failing.

2. Free markets are free to respond to the needs of humanity. Agian, in the USA most peoples "needs" are met. A smart capitalist is one that can see the needs of the "masses" and come up with a way to provide it and make money at it. If you're providing a "need" you'll always have customers, if you provide a "want" you might not.

Companies are spending billions trying to come up with renewal energy. Theres enormous amounts of money to be made. The reasons you see more are mostly technical. We just don't know how to do it efficiantly yet.
 
1 The capatalist system is essentially unjust, each company is dependant on a work force. In most cases this work force is at best short of cash and at worst starveing. Much of this workforce should be getting a primary level of education rather than working.The market will not adress this because capatalism enivitably puts people before profit.

What's your definition of "work force"? That piece of information is crucial in my dismantling of your claim.

2 The market will produce whats beneficial for those at the top not beneficial for humanity as a whole. Renewable energy would do humanity a huge service but its difficult to make money from. Instruments designed for torture however are extremely lucrative.
There is a huge market for green energy, what are you talking about?

Alternative energy | Green dreams | Economist.com

The Economist said:
That has changed. California's entrepreneurs are piling into clean-energy technology. In June a group of Silicon Valley luminaries invested $100m in Nanosolar, a firm which hopes to cut the cost of producing solar panels dramatically. The investors include some of the founders of eBay, the world's biggest online auctioneer, and Germany's SAP, a giant software firm. Nanosolar's seed money came from Sergey Brin and Larry Page, who started Google. Last month their “do no evil” search-engine company announced plans to build the largest corporate solar-power installation at its Silicon Valley campus. The panels will supply about 30% of its electricity.

One estimate puts the total investment going into clean energy at $63 billion this year, up from $49 billion last year and just $30 billion in 2004. Some supposedly green business is more relabelling than revolution companies flogging slightly more efficient versions of standard technologies as exciting innovations—but there is also a flood of money into new energy technologies. Clean energy now gobbles up almost a tenth of America's venture capital. After years of wondering what would be the next big thing after the dotcom boom, America's technology industry is betting on alternative energy

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8168089

The Economist said:
Investors are falling over themselves to finance start-ups in clean technology, especially in energy. Venture Business Research reckons that investment in the field by venture capitalists and private-equity firms has quadrupled in the past two years, from some $500m in 2004 to almost $2 billion so far this year. The share of venture capital going into clean energy is rising rapidly (see chart 1). New Energy Finance, another research firm, reckons that investment of all sorts in the business will reach $63 billion this year, compared with just $30 billion in 2004. The lure of big money is leading investment banks to ramp up their analysis of the latest boom industry.

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It is Europe's Socialist System's attempt to protect the environment that is failing.

Charlemagne | Soot, smoke and mirrors | Economist.com

The Economist said:
ASK a European what the continent is good at, and sooner or later he or she will say protecting the environment. Our economies may be struggling. We may be failing to integrate Muslims. But, by golly, we are green and cuddly, like a Martian teddy bear.


Yet at a time when policies on climate change are coming under scrutiny, the European Union's flagship programme, the emission-trading scheme, is in serious trouble. It was set up last year amid high hopes: it is the first international arrangement that uses markets to reduce soot and smoke. But unless reformed, it will go down as a good idea, badly executed.
The system works as follows. National governments decide how much carbon the five dirtiest heavy industries in their countries may spew forth (the industries are things like power generation, pulp and paper, and metal bashing). They then allocate “permits to pollute” to each company in that line of business. If a firm wants to go over its limit, it must buy “pollution permits” from cleaner firms or credits from developing countries that have set up special projects to lower emissions.


The case for such a European policy is strong. When it comes to the environment, individual countries suffer “the tragedy of the commons”: they capture the benefits of polluting while the costs are dumped on the common land, air and water. Ideally, pollution controls would be universal, but since (as the Kyoto treaty showed) that is impossible, the EU is the next best thing: big enough to make an impact, coherent enough to constrain members' behaviour. Arguably, if climate-change measures cannot work in the EU, they cannot work at all.
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Moreover, as EU policies go, this one is fairly well designed, in principle anyway. It manages to set a carbon price and encourages trading in environmental assets (the pollution permits). That should be the most efficient way to control emissions. It is a welcome contrast to the command-and-control systems, such as the common agricultural policy, that the EU has preferred in the past. And although economists may argue forever about the relative merits of carbon trading versus a carbon tax, Europe's decision to go for the former at least has the merit of decisiveness. Britain's environment minister calls the scheme “the most innovative and efficient method yet invented for reducing carbon emissions”. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the governor of California, wants to set up a similar arrangement between his and other states. Indeed, Gordon Brown, the British chancellor of the exchequer, says the European and Californian schemes one day should be linked as part of a worldwide carbon-trading network.


Yet even while lauded as a model for others, the scheme is failing at home. It will lead to cuts in emissions only if the permits are strict enough, so the question of who allocates them is vital. For political reasons, the EU left the power of allocation to national governments. As a result, what should have been an exercise in setting rules for a new market became a matter of horsetrading about pollution limits, with powerful companies lobbying for the largest possible allowances.


Last year, governments gave away (ie, did not sell) pollution permits that amounted to more than the pollution companies were actually spewing forth. That risks making the scheme pointless. The European Commission is now reviewing proposals for allocations in 2008-12. If approved, these would allow companies to increase emissions by a further 15%.
Lax allocations do more than just fail to cut greenhouse gases (bad enough, you might think, given that this is the main point of the scheme). They also damage the market. When it became clear, in April, that most allocations were larger than actual emissions, the price of carbon halved almost overnight. Some volatility is probably inevitable in a new market, but when combined with irresponsible behaviour by governments it hardly encourages people to enter the emissions-trading business.
It gets worse. The plunging price sends a market signal to developing countries that have installed pollution controls partly so that they could sell the resulting “pollution credits” for a nice profit. That no longer looks like a good idea.
A blackening reputation

Similarly, some countries (Germany, France and Poland) have scattered permits around like confetti while a few (Britain, Ireland and Spain) have been sparing because they want to cut emissions. Companies in the second group are buying permits issued in the first, so the market is transferring resources from places that are using the scheme to curb pollution to those that are not. Brilliant.
The European Commission could reject the proposed national allocations outright and insist that offending governments slash the allowances substantially. They could also push governments to sell the permits, rather than give them away (taxpayers would like that too). But in the long run, argues Michael Grubb of Cambridge University, countries need independent agencies to issue the permits, just as there are independent central banks to issue money.
And if governments refuse? They might remember that they have already promised to meet emission-reduction targets under the Kyoto protocol. If they miss them they will sooner or later face a choice: either buy up offsetting pollution credits from countries that have cut their emissions (thus sending the carbon price soaring again and spending lots of taxpayers' money). Or flout the Kyoto obligations they solemnly undertook and admit to voters that they were not really serious about curbing greenhouse gases.
In a recent British report on climate change, Sir Nicholas Stern said the European emission-trading scheme could become “the nucleus of future global carbon markets”. It could. But only if politicians allow it to work properly.
 
1. Where are all these short of cash, starving workforces, who lack primary education, that all of you socialists keep talking about? They don't seem to be in most capitalist countries. Sure, there are poor people here in the USA, but most are that way for soem other social reason, not because the big bad capitalists made them that way. Only stupid capitalists (of which ther are many right now) puts "profits before people" (I assume thats what you meant). A smart capitalist knows that if he invests some of his profit back into his workers that he can get a "return on investment" that can rival any other investment he can make. Fortunatly for me the company I work for does that and is doing quite well while others in the same field are failing.

2. Free markets are free to respond to the needs of humanity. Agian, in the USA most peoples "needs" are met. A smart capitalist is one that can see the needs of the "masses" and come up with a way to provide it and make money at it. If you're providing a "need" you'll always have customers, if you provide a "want" you might not.

Companies are spending billions trying to come up with renewal energy. Theres enormous amounts of money to be made. The reasons you see more are mostly technical. We just don't know how to do it efficiantly yet.

1 I would cite brazil and india and as examples of capatalist countrys where many people lack high enough wages for a basic standard of living and decent level of education.

2 Not everything thats needed will have throngs of rich people queing up to pay for it. Healthcare for the homeless is a need but its not something in particually high demand among the rich.

3 Its inaccurate to portray renewable energy as some sort as if its a code that needs to be fixed. We have the technoloy. Hydroelectic powestations and bioethonal powerd transport for example is being used all over the word, there just not provided universially. This is a failure on the part of the market.
 
The reason why the work force is payed very little is because they're providing something that can be provided by pretty much anyone. Why should I pay you to do this instead of him, considering you're doing the same thing? Reasonably I go with whoever charges less.

Looking at things purely in terms of profit it is reasonable. Looking at things morally its not. If you look at it from a utiltarian perspective [as thats reveatively universial] a system that doesnt provide people with a decent standard of life is wrong. Also if one isnt provideing his workers with a fair wage then surely he,s responsible for the concequences? I accept that financial responsibilty on the part of the worker plays a role but wages are inevitiably an important factor.

The market is for economics, not for politics. It works for trade, because in trade there is no inherent value to anything other than the value placed on it by the seller and the purchaser. Labor is trade, and thus the market applies.

Economics concerns people and power and is therefore political. I would argue that the fact there is no inherent value in anything other then the value placed on it by the seller and the purchaser precisely the problem. There not the only ones effected. What about the value placed on it by the worker? sure they choose to work where they work but often the choice is to work in a certain place or be homeless or to work in a certain place or starve.


Politics is something entirely different, politics is the public business, making sure that we, as a society, fufill the public interest in the best way possible. One of these ways is free market economics, because it in fact encourages education (as unskilled labor becomes less and less valuable), it encourages innovation, and it distributes resources in the most efficient, fair way. There is a degree of unfairness to it, but less than you believe, because I doubt you believe that someone who is impoverished due to lack of effort is being treated fairly. This is only one aspect of promoting the public interest. Education is another thing that falls within the interest of the public, and thus it can be addressed, and so the argument that the free market does not promote education, along with being wrong, it doesn't mean anything, because the market is about economics, not education..

No i agree that effort should be rewarded but the market doesnt do this adequately. More often then not people are poor for other reasons then lack of effot. Economics effects education, espicially in the thrid world. If a family is too poor for there kids to recive schooling because [A] They have to send them to work to keep the family afloat and/or They cant afford the bills [C] There government has owes a debt to the world bank that would appal Ebenezer Scrooge then capatalist economics has effected there education.

Are you joking? Renewable energy would be difficult to make money from? Do you really think that there isn't a market for renewable energy? You show me something that can lower people's heating bills, and I'll show you something that people will use
Thats the issue. Many familys would gladly pay for renewable energy where it affordable and availble. Hence the need for government intervention to make it so.

The reason the economy has been slow is because of corruption. We let the energy companies write the energy bill, and thus the subsidies went to the corporations instead of to the consumer, where they would've been effective. Had the sum of money that was given in subsidies to the oil companies been set aside, to subsidize the purchase of vehicles and heating systems that use reknewable sources, then all companies know that there is a ready made billion dollar market waiting for them once they make the discovery, as opposed to a few oil companies splitting up the money, while having no new incentive to find anything. That's a product of bad economic policy, not of inherent flaws with the market.
Make the discovery?
 
1 I would cite brazil and india and as examples of capatalist countrys where many people lack high enough wages for a basic standard of living and decent level of education.
India has seen massive economic growth. Their employment of capitalist systems has lead to increases in literacy rates and overall per capita income.
3 Its inaccurate to portray renewable energy as some sort as if its a code that needs to be fixed. We have the technoloy. Hydroelectic powestations and bioethonal powerd transport for example is being used all over the word, there just not provided universially. This is a failure on the part of the market.

No it is not a failure on the part of the market that green energy is not universal. The reason it is not universal is that not everyone wants to use green energy. Simply put not everyone wants to drive a hybrid and not everyone wants a solar powered house. However, there are a good number who do, and those have been provided with more and more technology.
 
1 I would cite brazil and india and as examples of capatalist countrys where many people lack high enough wages for a basic standard of living and decent level of education.

I don't think Brazil nor India's problems are a result of capitalism. Both seem to have suffered from relying to long on "colonial" type economies, exporting raw materials and agricultural good rather than developing manufatoring industries until the middle of the last century. Brazil has also suffered from political unrest and dictatorships which has caused economic chaos and made if dufficult for the economy to develop. I don't think that India's economy, with it's "five year plans" could really be defined as "capitalism".

2 Not everything thats needed will have throngs of rich people queing up to pay for it. Healthcare for the homeless is a need but its not something in particually high demand among the rich.

Healthcare is definatly something that will have "throngs of rich people queing up to pay for". Qualify any thing with "for the homeless" or "for the poor" and your right, you won't have rich people running up to pay for it. This is the typical leftist entitlement mentality, that everyone should be entitled, and the rich should pay for it. Here in the USA there are programs to help the poor get healthcare. Is it as good as it should be? no, the program needs work. But I don't see it as the responsibility of the "rich people" to pay for it.

3 Its inaccurate to portray renewable energy as some sort as if its a code that needs to be fixed. We have the technoloy. Hydroelectic powestations and bioethonal powerd transport for example is being used all over the word, there just not provided universially. This is a failure on the part of the market.

Hydroelectric is great, but where are you going to put all these dams? And at what ecological cost? I don't think we could build enough dams here in the US to meet our electrical demands. Most of the US is to flat for any hydroelectric powerstations on a large enough size to meet the demands of the area without flooding huge areas that are already developed.

And bioethonal? Sure, thats great to, except we don't have enough land to grow enough feed stock to make enough to power all our transportational needs. Bio fuels are fine if made from agricultural wastes, but the growing of crops for fuel in many cases yields little net energy gain, and uses crop land that could be uses to grow food.

These are not "a failure on the part of the market". These are failures due to the realities of the limitations of the technology.
 
Lessons Earned

"Lessons Earned"

During the industrial revolution corporations exploited workers and exercised the desire to hoard. What happened?
Workers organized into unions which enforced the workers desires.
The struggle created a solution.

Now the government intervenes relieving the function of the unions, and all too easily, unsubstantiated policy is enforced, creating an even more difficult brand of inequality.

The result is damage to freedom that surrogates complacency and stagnation against the natural order of survival.
 
Re: Lessons Earned

"Lessons Earned"

During the industrial revolution corporations exploited workers and exercised the desire to hoard. What happened?
Workers organized into unions which enforced the workers desires.
The struggle created a solution.

Now the government intervenes relieving the function of the unions, and all too easily, unsubstantiated policy is enforced, creating an even more difficult brand of inequality.

The result is damage to freedom that surrogates complacency and stagnation against the natural order of survival.

Great take and an outstanding post, couldn't have said it better myself. I would note also that the unions have caused an interesting dynamic shift in the worker's position , because many unions have become opressively powerful, many members don't feel the need to improve themselves, and thus their value, making for lack of innovation, market stagnation, and liabilities of maintaining their employment, which slows the natural growth potential of a capitalist market.
 
2 Not everything thats needed will have throngs of rich people queing up to pay for it. Healthcare for the homeless is a need but its not something in particually high demand among the rich.

Firstly, if most people are willing to pay medicare for the poor then it is reasonable to say a good majority would donate to charities that do something similar.. If this is not the case, then a government is backlashing against the wishes of the majority. Luckily the majority do have a personal moral incentive to help the poor, if people are so in favor of aid for these poor people then it would be reasonable to say they could donate to charities that cover these issues as well. Would this not also give them the specific freedom to choose which cause they most want to give to, thus maximizing freedom?
 
Firstly, if most people are willing to pay medicare for the poor then it is reasonable to say a good majority would donate to charities that do something similar.. If this is not the case, then a government is backlashing against the wishes of the majority. Luckily the majority do have a personal moral incentive to help the poor, if people are so in favor of aid for these poor people then it would be reasonable to say they could donate to charities that cover these issues as well. Would this not also give them the specific freedom to choose which cause they most want to give to, thus maximizing freedom?

No. Healthcare (like education) is to vital for a society if you ask me. It might sound "socialist", but I am willing to live with this "socialist" idea as I know that it will lead to bigger wealth. As I see it the health of a society is directly linked to its overall wealth. Countries with millions of its citizens dieing of cureable disease are not wealth and never will be (with the exception of the rich ruling class of course). The more healthy a society is as a whole, the more wealthy as a whole said society is. If you have millions of people who stand between either eating every night or paying for healthcare then those people will eat and live with the healthcare problems.

By tossing it over to charity you not only basicly say "aint our problem", which is heartless frankly and in humane attitude in the modern world, and the same attitude Kings and dictators used for 2000 years in Europe, but also put the lives of said people into the hands of zealots and wackjobs which run quite a few of these charities "out of the goodness of thier heart". Read and believe the bible, koran or Ron Hubbord wack book, and we will pay for you vital healthcare...

Another factor is the amount of money needed will never be given as people will be selffish no matter what and never give the same amount to charity as the goverment would get in from taxes to cover it. Instead of having 300 million giving 100 bucks a year (for example) you would have 20 million giving 30 bucks.. that number dont add up.

Americans have to face it that charity will not solve these kinds of problems. I know that Americans have an irrational hate towards a universial healthcare system of somekind, but its cheaper and everyone is covered and the evidence concludes this time and time again.
 
As for the Free market... it does not exist. To have a free market (as I have said before) that works, you need full information, honesty and no laws to warp equilibrium out of wack.. that is impossible, alone on the first two.

As for the so called free market we have today. It cant live without goverment guidance in any society. As soon as goverment guidance is laxed or removed from a market, the main players of the market start to exploit this. Its seen time and time again. Greed overrules everything and goverment guidance is there for the most part to stem up this greed.

If it was not for goverment rules, then natural monopolies would develop fast and anyone even attempting to get on the market would be harrassed, beaten up or even killed.

On the other hand too much goverment guidance is bad as well, but it depends on the market and the good sold. As in all national economic things, you have to take the political aspect into consideration, and I know that aint popular with the "right" (although they do it themselvs constantly when it suits them).
 
No. Healthcare (like education) is to vital for a society if you ask me. It might sound "socialist", but I am willing to live with this "socialist" idea as I know that it will lead to bigger wealth. As I see it the health of a society is directly linked to its overall wealth. Countries with millions of its citizens dieing of cureable disease are not wealth and never will be (with the exception of the rich ruling class of course). The more healthy a society is as a whole, the more wealthy as a whole said society is. If you have millions of people who stand between either eating every night or paying for healthcare then those people will eat and live with the healthcare problems.

By tossing it over to charity you not only basicly say "aint our problem", which is heartless frankly and in humane attitude in the modern world, and the same attitude Kings and dictators used for 2000 years in Europe, but also put the lives of said people into the hands of zealots and wackjobs which run quite a few of these charities "out of the goodness of thier heart". Read and believe the bible, koran or Ron Hubbord wack book, and we will pay for you vital healthcare...

Wait didn't you say something earlier about Americans and their religion (although I'm sure it wasn't disparaging.)
My question, if the majority of Americans are willing to put their money into the government for such programs wouldn't they be just as willing to give it to a private charity? We're not saying "ain't our problem" we are saying its not the government's role to take away from one citizen for another by force. Most Americans would willingly donate to those charities and the problem would be addressed without going through inefficient bureaucracy and people would be more free to do what they want with their money.
Not to mention the economy would not suffer a deadweight loss and we would see increased workforce participation rates.
Another factor is the amount of money needed will never be given as people will be selffish no matter what and never give the same amount to charity as the goverment would get in from taxes to cover it. Instead of having 300 million giving 100 bucks a year (for example) you would have 20 million giving 30 bucks.. that number dont add up.

This is our difference, you believe that a benevolent government needs to nanny the people to do what it believes to be right and I believe the people are charitable without a coercive government. If people are so selfish why would they consistently vote in these entitlement programs? They are not, they are charitable and are willing to give some of their money to the poor. The question is, do we force people to do it, or do we let them do so freely.

Americans have to face it that charity will not solve these kinds of problems. I know that Americans have an irrational hate towards a universial healthcare system of somekind, but its cheaper and everyone is covered and the evidence concludes this time and time again.

How will there be innovation under a system of universal healthcare? How will new and better treatments be treated without market mechanisms? Furthermore, Europe is somewhat different in that Americans consume more calories per capita and thus have higher health care costs.
 
No. Healthcare (like education) is to vital for a society if you ask me. It might sound "socialist", but I am willing to live with this "socialist" idea as I know that it will lead to bigger wealth. As I see it the health of a society is directly linked to its overall wealth. Countries with millions of its citizens dieing of cureable disease are not wealth and never will be (with the exception of the rich ruling class of course). The more healthy a society is as a whole, the more wealthy as a whole said society is. If you have millions of people who stand between either eating every night or paying for healthcare then those people will eat and live with the healthcare problems.

By tossing it over to charity you not only basicly say "aint our problem", which is heartless frankly and in humane attitude in the modern world, and the same attitude Kings and dictators used for 2000 years in Europe, but also put the lives of said people into the hands of zealots and wackjobs which run quite a few of these charities "out of the goodness of thier heart". Read and believe the bible, koran or Ron Hubbord wack book, and we will pay for you vital healthcare...

Another factor is the amount of money needed will never be given as people will be selffish no matter what and never give the same amount to charity as the goverment would get in from taxes to cover it. Instead of having 300 million giving 100 bucks a year (for example) you would have 20 million giving 30 bucks.. that number dont add up.

Americans have to face it that charity will not solve these kinds of problems. I know that Americans have an irrational hate towards a universial healthcare system of somekind, but its cheaper and everyone is covered and the evidence concludes this time and time again.

That was a well written post but are you saying your for socialised medicine but against charity? [forgive me if ive got this wrong] Can you say "Champagne Socialist"?
 

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