A proposal to solve the gun crisis

[Gaius46]

The 2A was poorly written and has been open to misinterpretation for a long time. Pretty much the same goes for the entire US Constitution. Sometimes people say the 2A is about guns, sometimes self-defense, sometimes militias. I'm not aware of another amendment that's (at least partly) about certain physical objects, especially very lethal ones, so the 2A is pretty unique.

I don't subscribe to your philosophy about the BOR at all; that's just another conservative notion, a ploy to protect (your favored interpretation of) the 2A.

That’s kind of amusing since I didn’t originate the “package deal” bit. I swiped it from a liberal, anti-gun local NY lawyer whose blog I read who just also happens to actually respect the Constitution.

You can subscribe to it or not as you see fit. Just don’t bitch to me when they come for a right you care about.

The 2A is pretty plainly written like most of the document. It was meant to be read by normal people.

As to objects: The 1A by implication is about printing presses. The 3rd and 4th both are about homes.

 

[Moderate Right]

We have the most guns, the most shootings, and also the most incarcerated people. The problem is not letting "known dangerous people run around loose" -- we have the most shootings because we produce and sell guns like candy. There is no other explanation.

It is not law abiding citizens killing people. It is those dangerous people we let run around loose. The most recent Indianapolis case is yet another person running around loose who shouldn't have been running around loose. His own mother, for God's sake, reported him for wanting to die by police suicide and what do we do? We let him run around loose so that he can commit mass murder. Lefties are embarrassed about our high incarceration rate so they let these people run around loose and then want to take law abiding citizen's guns away in a misguided attempt to stop people like this from getting guns. They will get guns anyway. Every single piece of "common sense" gun control legislation wouldn't have stopped almost every single mass shooting we've had.

 

[Gaius46]

implied in the stance that only muskets would be protected is the acknowledgement that we have no evidence the Founders would have condoned civilian use of AR-15’s because, they did not exist in their time.

similar to how we have no idea how the Founders would decide on Twitter, because it did not exist in their time. Yes, they wanted the right to assemble to be protected. We know that. But, we don’t know how they would decide on the internet or Twitter. We have no idea. Because the world has moved leagues beyond their times.

The 2A itself is likely written to allow the states to form militias to protect their sovereignty. I think it has nothing to do with protecting yourself from crime.

The BoR was written broadly for a reason. Of course the founders couldn’t envision Twitter but they could - did - envision that the future would be different and wanted the document to remain applicable.

 

[Cameron]

It is not law abiding citizens killing people. It is those dangerous people we let run around loose. The most recent Indianapolis case is yet another person running around loose who shouldn't have been running around loose. His own mother, for God's sake, reported him for wanting to die by police suicide and what do we do? We let him run around loose so that he can commit mass murder. Lefties are embarrassed about our high incarceration rate so they let these people run around loose and then want to take law abiding citizen's guns away in a misguided attempt to stop people like this from getting guns. They will get guns anyway. Every single piece of "common sense" gun control legislation wouldn't have stopped almost every single mass shooting we've had.

I'm not focused on mass shootings. There are definitely things that can be done to stop criminals from getting guns. And no, criminals will not always get guns, that's a cop out. It is incredibly easy for criminals to get guns because guns are everywhere, there are so many loopholes on the regulation of gun sales, and also no tracking system to determine who specifically is responsible for criminals getting the guns, so they can be punished in appropriately draconian fashion.

 

[AFrench2]

What "gun crisis" are you talking about?

?

Are you ****ing retarded, there bro?

The "gun crisis" of daily shootings in the country.

 

[Winston]

The BoR was written broadly for a reason. Of course the founders couldn’t envision Twitter but they could - did - envision that the future would be different and wanted the document to remain applicable.

And you believe in the accuracy of a document with a 230 year forecast?

 

[AFrench2]

The BoR was written broadly for a reason. Of course the founders couldn’t envision Twitter but they could - did - envision that the future would be different and wanted the document to remain applicable.

you have no idea what the founders could or could not envision. But thanks for the arrogant assumption that you know what they wanted.

 

[Lursa]

I didn't write any crap and I didn't even imply that you said any of what I wrote.

LOL so you are running off again without any answers. I dont mind...your 'na huh' and rambling on about military exports werent anything to discuss.

 

[Gaius46]

you have no idea what the founders could or could not envision. But thanks for the arrogant assumption that you know what they wanted.

Why else do you suppose they wrote the document the way they did?

 

[AFrench2]

Why else do you suppose they wrote the document the way they did?

What part of it are we talking about? The entire Bill of Rights or what?

 

[Gaius46]

And you believe in the accuracy of a document with a 230 year forecast?

The principals the BoR was meant to protect are all applicable today. If anything we don’t respect them enough.

 

[RetiredUSN]

?

Are you ****ing retarded, there bro?

The "gun crisis" of daily shootings in the country.

Retarded?

Wow!

For a second there............... I had flashbacks to the Zimmerman trial. Or was that you?

 

[Gaius46]

What part of it are we talking about? The entire Bill of Rights or what?

The BoR but the same holds for the entire Constitution

 

[AFrench2]

The BoR but the same holds for the entire Constitution

Why do I think they wrote things the way they did? Probably to best accompany a new country, I dunno. The 2nd Amendment talks about militias so I don't know why they wrote that the way they did.

The Bill of Rights got watered down after the Civil War by the 14th Amendment. As an example, the 10th Amendment "Everything not written here explicitly is left to the States" was washed away entirely.

 

[Antiwar]

That’s kind of amusing since I didn’t originate the “package deal” bit. I swiped it from a liberal, anti-gun local NY lawyer whose blog I read who just also happens to actually respect the Constitution.

It doesn't matter where it originated from, you posted it.

You can subscribe to it or not as you see fit. Just don’t bitch to me when they come for a right you care about.

Enough of the melodramatics.

The 2A is pretty plainly written like most of the document. It was meant to be read by normal people.

The 2A is poorly written and gun proliferation proponents aren't even consistent about their interpretation. Normal people would notice that the 2A talks about a "Militia."

As to objects: The 1A by implication is about printing presses. The 3rd and 4th both are about homes.

The 1A is about the right to own printing presses and 3 and 4 the right to own homes? You're reaching.

 

[Antiwar]

LOL so you are running off again without any answers. I dont mind...your 'na huh' and rambling on about military exports werent anything to discuss.

At least you adjusted the rhetoric of your original statement a little bit.

 

[Gaius46]

Why do I think they wrote things the way they did? Probably to best accompany a new country, I dunno. The 2nd Amendment talks about militias so I don't know why they wrote that the way they did.

The Bill of Rights got watered down after the Civil War by the 14th Amendment. As an example, the 10th Amendment "Everything not written here explicitly is left to the States" was washed away entirely.

The Civil War in effect inverted the states relationship with the federal government. I’d suggest though that the incredibly broad interpretation of the Commerce Clause has done more to undermine states rights than the 14th amendment.

 

[Gaius46]

It doesn't matter where it originated from, you posted it.

Enough of the melodramatics.

The 2A is poorly written and gun proliferation proponents aren't even consistent about their interpretation. Normal people would notice that the 2A talks about a "Militia."

The 1A is about the right to own printing presses and 3 and 4 the right to own homes? You're reaching.

It matters in this context because you called it a “conservative talking point” or something similar. I merely pointed out the source to disabuse you of that notion.

I’ve gone on at length on the militia clause and why it doesn’t mean what you think it means. I suggest you read “The Commonplace Second Amendment” which analyzes the clause the the context of justification clauses that were common in Constitutions of the time.

The 1A talks about free speech and press. You don’t really think newsmen shouted the news in street corners do you? Presses and means od mass communications are implicit in the amendment.

The 3rd and 4th amendments both explicitly use the word house. A house is an object isn’t it? So much for the argument that only the 2A talks about objects.

 

[Linuxcooldude]

The 2A itself is likely written to allow the states to form militias to protect their sovereignty. I think it has nothing to do with protecting yourself from crime.

Militias are not just for the states. Local militias were for local towns to protect themselves, which used their personally owned firearms to do so. I'm thinking not every town had their own police persay.

That takes me to the Militia act of 1792 which Militia members were required to equip themselves with a musket, bayonet and belt, two spare flints, a box able to contain not less than 24 suitable cartridges, and a knapsack. Alternatively, everyone enrolled was to provide himself with a rifle, a powder horn, ¼ pound of gunpowder, 20 rifle balls, a shot-pouch, and a knapsack.

At their own expense, which infers private ownership.

 

[Sandy Shanks]

What "gun crisis" are you talking about?

On March 16, a man who police say went on a rampage at three spas in the Atlanta area, killing eight people, was charged with eight counts of murder in connection with the attacks.

On March 22, a mass shooting occurred at a King Soopers supermarket in Boulder, Colorado. Ten people were killed, including a local on-duty police officer.

A man has been charged with second-degree murder after an 11-month-old girl was killed and two other children were injured in a weekend drive-by shooting in New York, authorities said.

According to Syracuse police, three girls were sitting in the back seat of a car when someone in a passing vehicle opened fire on them.

At least five people are dead, including two children, in what police in York County, S.C., called a “case of a mass shooting” that involved a former National Football League player as the gunman.

On the day of the President's E.O.'s on gun control, one person was killed and at least four others were wounded in a shooting at an industrial park in Bryan, Texas.

A confrontation in a Tennessee high school that involved police officers responding to a report of a possible armed man left one person dead and an officer wounded, authorities said. The school was the subject of media reports in February after three students were shot to death over a three-week span.

Today, Police were working to identify a gunman and determine his motive for opening fire at a FedEx facility near the Indianapolis airport, killing eight people and taking his own life in the latest mass shooting to rock the U.S.

Deputy Chief Craig McCartt of the Indianapolis police said the gunman started randomly shooting at people in the parking lot late Thursday night and then went into the building, where he shot himself shortly before police entered the facility.

McCartt said four people were killed outside the building and another four inside. Several people were also wounded, including five taken to the hospital.

The carnage took just a couple of minutes. “It did not last very long,” he said.

The US has had at least 45 mass shootings, according to CNN reporting and an analysis of data from the Gun Violence Archive (GVA), local media, and police reports. The US has seen at least 147 mass shootings in 2021.

It is past time for reasonable gun controls, but Republicans will not allow that to happen. They do nothing, and they say nothing as this murderous rampage continues.

 

[Sandy Shanks]

The Times reports, "The 19-year-old gunman who killed eight people and injured seven others at a FedEx facility in Indianapolis late Thursday was a former employee of the company whose mother had warned law enforcement officials last year that he might try to commit “suicide by cop,” officials said."

Note: It is always easy to red flag a shooter after the act. There are a lot of stupid, dangerous people out there, and, for law enforcement to take action, there must be probable cause.

The gunman had a previous encounter with law enforcement — including the seizure of a shotgun from him last year.

The Times continued, "After the teenager’s mother reported him to law enforcement in March 2020, the authorities launched an investigation and put him on an “immediate detention mental health temporary hold,” Mr. Keenan said in a statement. He was not charged with a crime. “The shotgun was not returned to the suspect,” Mr. Keenan said.

"A law enforcement official, requesting anonymity, identified the suspect as Brandon Scott Hole."

Two huge questions are: A) What kind of rifle was used, and the size of the magazine? B) How did Hole get his hands on such a weapon?

 

[Sandy Shanks]

Two huge questions are: A) What kind of rifle was used, and the size of the magazine? B) How did Hole get his hands on such a weapon?

I have scowered the internet for this information. I have listened to several news programs on the telly. Surely law enforcement knows what kind of weapon was used in the FedEx shooting in Indianapolis, and they probably know how Hole got his hands on the rifle.

Despite my exhaustive search, it is readily apparent that law enforcement is holding back all information regarding the weapon.

Why?

We know the shooter's name, Brandon Scott Hole. We know he had worked at the FedEx facility, and we know his mother thought he was suicidal and a shotgun was confiscated from him.

That is all we know about him, and we know nothing about his family, not even their names.

Why is law enforcement keeping all information about this shooter a secret?

Indiana has long been considered to be a Republican stronghold. It's governor is Republican. Currently, the Republican Party holds super majorities in both chambers of the General Assembly. The two Senators are Republican.

That might explain the complete lack of information on the shooter and his weapon.

 

[TurtleDude]

What "gun crisis" are you talking about?

In reality-how gun owners tend to vote against the creeping crud of collectivism

 

[Lursa]

At least you adjusted the rhetoric of your original statement a little bit.

Yes, and it still stands as true as far as I'm concerned.

 

[TurtleDude]

Do you also apply that "originalist interpretation" to the 1st Amendment?

That is, since at the time the amendment was written the press was limited to the printing press. You know...type being arranged into words, sentences and paragraphs on a mechanical machine that was slathered with ink and then pressed against sheets of paper. It's obvious that the founders could not have foreseen digital, wired or wireless broadcast communications.

Do you propose anyone who wishes to express themselves be limited to material printed on 17th or 18th century printing presses?

You know...what you are ignoring about the Bill of Rights, as a whole, and the 2nd Amendment, specifically, is that they aren't about "what people can do". They are about "what the government cannot do". "Congress shall make no law" "shall not be infringed"

Stop trying to find ways to allow the government to "make law", to "infringe".

Those who hate the politics of gun owners and the way gun advocates usually vote, spend all sorts of time trying to reinterpret or create 2nd Amendment revisions, that allow their idiotic control freak schemes to be seen as not violating our constitutional rights. It is hilarious, dishonest and patently absurd