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CoffeeSaint

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What's your point? Have you ever met anyone who thinks that abortion is a happy, jolly, life-affirming procedure? I don't think it is. I think it's horrible. But I think there are many horrible things that society does, and that society MUST do, in order to protect members of the society, and in order to defend the ethos of the society. Part of our ethos is that individuals are sovereign when it comes to decisions concerning their own lives; I could show you thousands of horrible pictures of drug addicts, even the legal drug addicts we call alcoholics, and the horrible things those people do, and that still would not mean that alcohol consumption should be banned in our society.
Freedom is a part of our society. The preservation of the life of one individual -- or one hundred little tiny individuals that someone took pictures of -- at the cost of freedom, is not a part of our society, or at least it should not be. Life without liberty is no life at all.
I am saddened that those babies had to die for freedom. But they did. If your problem is with people who have unprotected sex, you need to argue against sex; if your problem is with my statement that individuals' lives are not more important than freedom, then you need to make this country hate freedom. Arguing against abortion proves only that you support the enslavement of millions of women; it does not make you a better person than I.
 
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CoffeeSaint said:
What's your point? Have you ever met anyone who thinks that abortion is a happy, jolly, life-affirming procedure? I don't think it is. I think it's horrible. But I think there are many horrible things that society does, and that society MUST do, in order to protect members of the society, and in order to defend the ethos of the society. Part of our ethos is that individuals are sovereign when it comes to decisions concerning their own lives; I could show you thousands of horrible pictures of drug addicts, even the legal drug addicts we call alcoholics, and the horrible things those people do, and that still would not mean that alcohol consumption should be banned in our society.
Freedom is a part of our society. The preservation of the life of one individual -- or one hundred little tiny individuals that someone took pictures of -- at the cost of freedom, is not a part of our society, or at least it should not be. Life without liberty is no life at all.
I am saddened that those babies had to die for freedom. But they did. If your problem is with people who have unprotected sex, you need to argue against sex; if your problem is with my statement that individuals' lives are not more important than freedom, then you need to make this country hate freedom. Arguing against abortion proves only that you support the enslavement of millions of women; it does not make you a better person than I.
Again Accepting responsibility for ones actions is not enslaving women Who arethe people commited the act that led to pregnancy? Again there are enough ways out there to prevent pregnancy that would prevent your claim to enslaving women which is ridiculas. You can not abort AIDS, it makes you responsible for your actions, You can not abort STD's Again it makes you responsible for your actions. Are these diseaes enslaving women? Again Do you feel that abortion should be used as birth Control
 

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Again Accepting responsibility for ones actions is not enslaving women Who arethe people commited the act that led to pregnancy? Again there are enough ways out there to prevent pregnancy that would prevent your claim to enslaving women which is ridiculas. You can not abort AIDS, it makes you responsible for your actions, You can not abort STD's Again it makes you responsible for your actions. Are these diseaes enslaving women? Again Do you feel that abortion should be used as birth Control
I fail to see how choosing to have an abortion is avoiding your responsibility. If a woman is pregnant, her responsibility is to choose what she wants to do: to abort the child, to bear it to term and give it up for adoption, or to bear and raise the child herself. Making that decision, and following through with the decision she makes, is the end of her responsibility. Men are out of this picture entirely; that is a whole different debate, and not one that should be mixed into this. There is no way to get out of pregnancy except abortion or birth. Once the zygote has implanted itself in the uterine lining, our current medicine cannot remove it and transplant it to another womb, human or mechanical, without killing the fetus, so surrogate motherhood is not an option for pregnant women. (I am counting RU-486 as a method of abotion here.) The three choices I listed are the only ones she has; to remove abortion mandates that a woman must bear the child to term. That is removing a woman's control over her own body, for the term of the pregnancy; that is slavery. What definition of slavery are you using that is different from mine?

As for your statement about diseases, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you comparing pregnancy to an STD? If so, couldn't we "cure" pregnancy the same way we cure gonorrhea?

Again, I will not answer your question about abortion as birth control, as that implies approval or disapproval, and I feel the decision is not mine to make.
 
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CoffeeSaint said:
I fail to see how choosing to have an abortion is avoiding your responsibility. If a woman is pregnant, her responsibility is to choose what she wants to do: to abort the child, to bear it to term and give it up for adoption, or to bear and raise the child herself. Making that decision, and following through with the decision she makes, is the end of her responsibility.

Again we are talking about killing another human being no one should have that right. Again if the couple does not want to be pregnant then there are ways to prevent it. Oh it is not only the wsomens resposibility to use birth control it is also the males responsibilty.

Men are out of this picture entirely; that is a whole different debate, and not one that should be mixed into this.

It takes 2 Make men pay child support all during the pregnancy this would reduce unwanted pregnancies.

There is no way to get out of pregnancy except abortion or birth. Once the zygote has implanted itself in the uterine lining, our current medicine cannot remove it and transplant it to another womb, human or mechanical, without killing the fetus, so surrogate motherhood is not an option for pregnant women. (I am counting RU-486 as a method of abotion here.) The three choices I listed are the only ones she has; to remove abortion mandates that a woman must bear the child to term. That is removing a woman's control over her own body, for the term of the pregnancy; that is slavery. What definition of slavery are you using that is different from mine?

More Slavery for not being responsible? The Couple made the choice it is to late (hopefully it will be)


As for your statement about diseases, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you comparing pregnancy to an STD? If so, couldn't we "cure" pregnancy the same way we cure gonorrhea?

Aids and other STD's are not cureable are these diseases enslaving women? You can not abort them. If abortion was ilegal you could not legally abort. What is the difference? At least you will not die. If you do not want to be a parent don't put yourself or your wife in that situation. Adoption is a very caring and loving alternative.

Again, I will not answer your question about abortion as birth control, as that implies approval or disapproval, and I feel the decision is not mine to make.
C'mon You have made it quite clear you support using abortion as birth control
 

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Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
I want people to see who is being aborted Check this site out if you do not have a weak stomach and your not afraid of the truth. The truth really does hurt.
Really? What hurts? What was the big deal? That was just more fetal porn, nothing else. Whopetido
 

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Ugh, I bet they secretly whack off over that stuff.

Given his rants about AIDS and STDs, I think we can safely conclude that Proudly Pro Life JP Freem has a problem with sex. Good for him. However, the rest of the world isn't so prudish, so deal with it.
 
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vergiss said:
Ugh, I bet they secretly whack off over that stuff.

Given his rants about AIDS and STDs, I think we can safely conclude that Proudly Pro Life JP Freem has a problem with sex. Good for him. However, the rest of the world isn't so prudish, so deal with it.
No problem with sex as You probally know by now I have fathered 6 kids. Maybe more, but that is another story when I was not responsible.I enjoy sex it is the best thing since sliced bread. but I respect it now and I am responsible with it now.
 

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That's a cute appeal to emotion you've got there.
 

ngdawg

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Maybe more, but that is another story when I was not responsible

Doubt it-they were probably aborted. At least someone back then acted responsibly.
 
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ngdawg said:
Maybe more, but that is another story when I was not responsible

Doubt it-they were probably aborted. At least someone back then acted responsibly.
That thought haunts me today. To think one of my kids might have grown up in poverty in a 3rd world nation. It scares the hell out of me now. I was in the Army and the Navy. Young and stupid just raising hell, but now I regret it.
 

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Coffee says, “What's your point? Have you ever met anyone who thinks that abortion is a happy, jolly, life-affirming procedure? I don't think it is. I think it's horrible.”

Yes, I know people on here that think abortion is NOTHING. ITS NOTHING CAUSE IT AINT A CHILD. You think it’s horrible. Then speak out against it. Bottom line put your money where your mouth is. Stop trying to be so politically correct. It’s murder just say it if you have any guts.

“But I think there are many horrible things that society does, and that society MUST do, in order to protect members of the society, and in order to defend the ethos of the society.”

Oh yea. What could be worse than to dismember an unborn child in the womb?

Oh here we go………….”I could show you thousands of horrible pictures of drug addicts, even the legal drug addicts we call alcoholics, and the horrible things those people do, and that still would not mean that alcohol consumption should be banned in our society.”

Those drug addicts no doubt did that to themselves. THEY WILLINGLY TOOK THE DRUGS. What does this have to do with anything. We are talking about abortion. The killing of innocent children in the womb, not people already living in society who do most bad things to themselves.


“Freedom is a part of our society.”

So is LIFE. LIFE AND THE RIGHT TO LIVE IT….and so is protection from people like you who want to take it from others.


“The preservation of the life of one individual -- or one hundred little tiny individuals that someone took pictures of -- at the cost of freedom, is not a part of our society, or at least it should not be”

That statement makes me about want to gag.

“I am saddened that those babies had to die for freedom. But they did.’

Oh please. You have got to be kidding. No you don’t. You are not saddened at all. Won’t fall for that line of crap…………….


“Arguing against abortion proves only that you support the enslavement of millions of women; it does not make you a better person than I.”

Go have another cup…………How you sleep at night I’ll never know.

One question for ya………………Are you for abortion at 8 months?

Can't wait to her this answer.
 

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Vergiss............



"Ugh, I bet they secretly whack off over that stuff."

God help you. What a pathetic statement. What a pathetic, unfeeling, monsterous statment to make. ARe you human? I've met some disqusting people in my life, but you are up there. I am sure you do not care as you probably don't care about much in your small life.

Youre worse than STeen. I never thougth I'd say it but you are.

I really do not know what to say.

Proudly Pro-life Jp............can you believe this?

You can't even talk to people like that. I don't know how far you can go on here or what you can say before your banned............but I am close.

What are the rules?
 
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doughgirl said:
Vergiss............



"Ugh, I bet they secretly whack off over that stuff."

God help you. What a pathetic statement. What a pathetic, unfeeling, monsterous statment to make. ARe you human? I've met some disqusting people in my life, but you are up there. I am sure you do not care as you probably don't care about much in your small life.

Youre worse than STeen. I never thougth I'd say it but you are.

I really do not know what to say.

Proudly Pro-life Jp............can you believe this?

You can't even talk to people like that. I don't know how far you can go on here or what you can say before your banned............but I am close.

What are the rules?
On the bottom of each post there is a little red triangle white inside with a black line in it. If you click on it you can report a post that goes over the line. I have used it and it works. Happy and Holy Holidays
JP
 

vergiss

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doughgirl said:
Vergiss............



"Ugh, I bet they secretly whack off over that stuff."

God help you. What a pathetic statement. What a pathetic, unfeeling, monsterous statment to make. ARe you human? I've met some disqusting people in my life, but you are up there. I am sure you do not care as you probably don't care about much in your small life.

Youre worse than STeen. I never thougth I'd say it but you are.

I really do not know what to say.

Proudly Pro-life Jp............can you believe this?

You can't even talk to people like that. I don't know how far you can go on here or what you can say before your banned............but I am close.

What are the rules?
Aww, diddums. :roll: You're forgetting that you're the one who brutally and unfeelingly "murdered" her own baby, not me.

By "they" I was talking about the people who invent those things, but whatever you want to have a hissy fit over. Now go vent your guilt on a 15-year-old mother or someone who you can actually frighten.
 
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CoffeeSaint

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doughgirl said:
Coffee says, “What's your point? Have you ever met anyone who thinks that abortion is a happy, jolly, life-affirming procedure? I don't think it is. I think it's horrible.”

Yes, I know people on here that think abortion is NOTHING. ITS NOTHING CAUSE IT AINT A CHILD. You think it’s horrible. Then speak out against it. Bottom line put your money where your mouth is. Stop trying to be so politically correct. It’s murder just say it if you have any guts.
I think it is horrible. I think it is necessary. Why does this position make me a coward? I would also bet that most of the people on this forum see abortion exactly as I do: horrible, but necessary. But when I say it is horrible, you think that puts me on your side, and I am just too cowardly to say it. That is why most of your opponents treat the subject with indifference; they do not want to get into a screaming match with you.
On a personal note, I have put my money where my mouth is: I have fathered NO children. NO woman has had to get an abortion because of me, and I can say that absolutely. Can Mr. Freeman?

...

doughgirl said:
“Freedom is a part of our society.”

So is LIFE. LIFE AND THE RIGHT TO LIVE IT….and so is protection from people like you who want to take it from others.


“The preservation of the life of one individual -- or one hundred little tiny individuals that someone took pictures of -- at the cost of freedom, is not a part of our society, or at least it should not be”

That statement makes me about want to gag.

“I am saddened that those babies had to die for freedom. But they did.’

Oh please. You have got to be kidding. No you don’t. You are not saddened at all. Won’t fall for that line of crap…………….
I do not want children to die. I do not want to take life from others. I am a realist, and I see that it is necessary for some to die, so that others may live free. I am an American; it is part of my society. Perhaps that society is wrong, but I believe in it. But in no case do I WANT people to die.

doughgirl said:
“Arguing against abortion proves only that you support the enslavement of millions of women; it does not make you a better person than I.”

Go have another cup…………How you sleep at night I’ll never know.

One question for ya………………Are you for abortion at 8 months?

Can't wait to her this answer.
I answered this question. I want one, simple thing: if a woman chooses not to be pregnant, she needs to be able to go to a doctor, pay him whatever requisite fees, etc., and walk out of the office/hospital/clinic not pregnant. If it were possible for that to happen and the child to live, I would ban abortion in a heartbeat, except in a medical crisis. If it is not possible for the child to live, and the mother to stop being pregnant, then I choose the mother.
So: If the fetus is not viable, I accept abortion as necessary.
If the fetus is viable, it should be removed from the mother, presumably by Caesarian section, though I will make no medical recommendations, not being a doctor.
If there is a miracle machine that can take the fetus out of the mother and keep it alive until it becomes viable, I would support the use of that.
I hope that is clear enough.
 

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doughgirl said:
Vergiss............



"Ugh, I bet they secretly whack off over that stuff."

God help you. What a pathetic statement. What a pathetic, unfeeling, monsterous statment to make. ARe you human? I've met some disqusting people in my life, but you are up there. I am sure you do not care as you probably don't care about much in your small life.
Well, prolifers sure seem to get off on that stuff. They are much more enamored and fascinated with fetal porn than prochoice who just see medical procedures.

You guys need to get beyond the emotional hyperbole and deceptive distortions if you ever want meaningful. debate. Appealing to falsehoods just because YOU get excited about fetal pron frankkly doesn't mean much to the rest of us. Vergiss got a VERY GOOD point. Certainly, prolife seem to mentally masturbate over these pictures.
Youre worse than STeen. I never thougth I'd say it but you are.
Wow, does that mean that vergiss has a pointed tail and ears and horns? Oh, no, that was me, so what does Vergiss show if it is even worse?
I really do not know what to say.
Well, if people don't buy your emotional histrionics and that is ALL you got, then yes I can see you have run out of tricks.
Proudly Pro-life Jp............can you believe this?
Probably not. Though he is relying a little bit less on PURE emotion for the arguments, so perhaps he can get beyond it.
You can't even talk to people like that.
Well, if all you have is emotional fervor and no facts, then yes you can't talk to us. I pointed that out to you months ago.
I don't know how far you can go on here or what you can say before your banned............but I am close.

What are the rules?
GEEZZ, more histrionics.
 

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“By "they" I was talking about the people who invent those things, but whatever you want to have a hissy fit over. Now go vent your guilt on a 15-year-old mother or someone who you can actually frighten.”

The people who invent what???????????????????

Honey those pictures are not invented. Like it or not they are real and they happened.
Pictures of aborted babies are not invented by pro-lifers. And anyone who thinks they are is simply ignorant of the medical facts about the development of the unborn and about the procedures of abortion. The pictures are authentic and real.
The pictures are not doctored nor are they distorted.

I ask you why would anyone defend as legitimate what is shown in these pictures?
Why did the media spread around the pictures from Abu Ghraib prison? Maybe to show the atrocities that went on there? That is what photographs about abortion do. They are essential to wake up society to the reality of butchered children. Holocaust pictures do the same thing. They tell a story. A story can be touching and moving, but pictures make it real. No one could even fathom the horrors of the Holocaust had it not been for the pictures. The solution to the Holocaust was not to ban the pictures of the ovens the death camps, the medical experiments, the only solution was to end the killing. As with abortion the solution is not to end showing the pictures, for they speak for themselves, the solution is to stop the killing.
Like the Holocaust, abortion is an evil so great that words simply do not describe it.
I think showing the pictures will help end the killing. They state the hideous truth of what abortion is and what it does. Most Americans are in denial about abortion. Pictures might make a difference.
The success of the pro-choice position is DEPENDANT on the public’s denial that abortion kills children. Pictures challenge this denial. This pro-abortion side does not want the pictures shown because they support the pro-life side.

Coffee says, “That is why most of your opponents treat the subject with indifference; they do not want to get into a screaming match with you.”

They treat the subject with indifference because they really know what abortion is and they don’t have the guts like you to state what they really feel. You at least stated that you think abortion is alright even in the 9th month of pregnancy, that you are not for the rights of the child that you are only for the rights of the woman. You just are happy and proud to state what you feel.

Coffee says, “On a personal note, I have put my money where my mouth is: I have fathered NO children. NO woman has had to get an abortion because of me, and I can say that absolutely.”

Thank God you have not. But then why are you proud of this fact? You said abortion is fine, that it doesn’t kill and it’s not human……….why brag if you think abortion is nothing?

Coffee says, “Can Mr. Freeman?”

He has willingly admitted his faults and so have I. We have turned our lives around and are working to educate people to what abortion is. Guess what………….YOU COULD DO THE SAME. IT’S NEVER TOO LATE TO CHANGE.

Coffee says “I do not want children to die. I do not want to take life from others. I am a realist, and I see that it is necessary for some to die, so that others may live free.”


Sure you do.. you stated it so in your posts. You are taking the life away from a 9 month old unborn who you say could be aborted. Necessary to die for the betterment of society?

Coffee would you be for killing all those who contract AIDS/HIV to stop the spread of the disease? To free up those who do not have the disease?


Coffee says, “So: If the fetus is not viable, I accept abortion as necessary.
If the fetus is viable, it should be removed from the mother, presumably by Caesarian section, though I will make no medical recommendations, not being a doctor.”


You are confused by your own statements. Viability? You stated in a previous post that you think if a woman wants to have an abortion at 9 months its ok to kill the child to do it. What does viability have to do with anything? You are for abortion at any time, any reason.

And Steen I wouldn’t expect you to understand the pictures………because abortion pictures don’t do anything to those without a heart, those without emotions.
 

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vergiss said:
Ugh, I bet they secretly whack off over that stuff.

Given his rants about AIDS and STDs, I think we can safely conclude that Proudly Pro Life JP Freem has a problem with sex. Good for him. However, the rest of the world isn't so prudish, so deal with it.
vergiss said:
Aww, diddums. :roll: You're forgetting that you're the one who brutally and unfeelingly "murdered" her own baby, not me.

By "they" I was talking about the people who invent those things, but whatever you want to have a hissy fit over. Now go vent your guilt on a 15-year-old mother or someone who you can actually frighten.
[/Moderator mode]
vergiss,

Let’s keep the crude personal indictments to yourself and stick to the issue being debated. Statements such as you have made here serve no purpose other than to inflame the debate and this sort of tactless provocation will not be tolerated at Debate Politics.

[/Moderator mode]
 

steen

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doughgirl said:
And Steen I wouldn’t expect you to understand the pictures………because abortion pictures don’t do anything to those without a heart, those without emotions.
<Checking pulse> Hmm, nope, it is still there.

So you are just rambling your irrelevant drivel again. OK, more emotional histrionics. Hmm...
 

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doughgirl said:
Coffee says, “On a personal note, I have put my money where my mouth is: I have fathered NO children. NO woman has had to get an abortion because of me, and I can say that absolutely.”

Thank God you have not. But then why are you proud of this fact? You said abortion is fine, that it doesn’t kill and it’s not human……….why brag if you think abortion is nothing?
I have never said, nor will I ever say, that abortion is nothing. I have said it is sometimes necessary, and so it is. I have also never said that it is not killing; it is killing, and I recognize that fact. That is not "fine." I am not bragging; you told me to put my money where my mouth is, and I have done so. I think abortion is sad; therefore, I have never caused one to happen. My actions have suited my beliefs.

doughgirl said:
Coffee says “I do not want children to die. I do not want to take life from others. I am a realist, and I see that it is necessary for some to die, so that others may live free.”


Sure you do.. you stated it so in your posts. You are taking the life away from a 9 month old unborn who you say could be aborted. Necessary to die for the betterment of society?
I have just stated, in very simple terms, exactly how I feel about it. Please do not tell me that I am lying. I do not lie. If yu feel I have contradicted myself, please tell me which post contradicts this statement, and I will explain it; it is entirely possible I have not been clear in the past. This, however, is quite clear: I do not want children to die.

doughgirl said:
Coffee would you be for killing all those who contract AIDS/HIV to stop the spread of the disease? To free up those who do not have the disease?
No. I would be for taking all of the money that supports efforts to ban abortion, and putting it into research to cure AIDS.

doughgirl said:
Coffee says, “So: If the fetus is not viable, I accept abortion as necessary.
If the fetus is viable, it should be removed from the mother, presumably by Caesarian section, though I will make no medical recommendations, not being a doctor.”


You are confused by your own statements. Viability? You stated in a previous post that you think if a woman wants to have an abortion at 9 months its ok to kill the child to do it. What does viability have to do with anything? You are for abortion at any time, any reason.
Do not tell me what I believe in. My statements could not be more clear. To misconstrue them in this way is at best obtuse, and at worst slanderous. I have said that abortion may be a medical necessity at times, and in that case, I would support it to save the mother's life, even at 9 months. In terms of the mother's choice to no longer be pregnant, if the child could survive without the mother, then it should be kept alive. If it cannot survive, it should be aborted. That is my position, and any other belief you attribute to me is not correct.
 
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