A person's legal racial identity should be determined by:

[Wayne Jr]

Since we have affirmative action and punishment for racial discrimination, there is at least a de facto legal racial identity/definition. Therefore, one's race must be a legal status in order for discrimination laws to function.

Please give your input as to which racial metrics or methods should be used to determine legal racial identity, and who decides what race we are for the purposes of a racial discrimination case.

Your thoughts, please.

There should not be a legal racial identity in the first place. Laws should not regard your race at all.

 

[Rickeroo]

That's nonsense. Can you point to any racial discrimination laws that take the race of the discriminator into account?



Using the "one drop" rule? Or going with the Nazi's "three grandparents"? What race is someone with a parent from Japan and one from Sudan?

If a black man gets refused a job at a black company versus a white company, the race of the discriminator certainly comes into play. I've heard of no case where a black man discriminates racially against another black man. Regardless of which rules are used, we must have an official standard by which races are distinguished if we are to have successful and fair race-based discrimination laws.

Sudanese/Japanese, for the legal purpose of discriminatory viability, could be determined by a computer algorithm that measures facial features as would be interpreted by the population. For example, Obama was half white but society took him as all black. A computer could be trained to think like that, and be able to tell us objectively where on the "minority scale" a Sudan/Japan person would be. Based on how far towards black the person is, they would be entitled to an increasingly prorated application of whatever race-based laws designed to benefit minorities.

 

[Rickeroo]

I will provide the serious thought such questions warrant.

I think diet preferences are the most accurate measure of race:

Chinese eat dogs
Japanese eat raw sea slugs
Afro Americans eat water melon and fried chicken
Germans eat sauerkraut
Mexicans eat tacos
Italians eat guineas
and Real Africans eat each other.

There you have it, in a nutshell.

Diet could be one metric by which legal race is determined. However, there may be more effective means of properly assessing legal racial status.

 

[OlNate]

And yet some will still, "we should just ignore it, it will go away". Like they don't support racism.

I don't think apathy necessarily implies support. Not that I'm excusing apathy...it's just it's helpful when trying to call out a problem to have the right terms. One could easily respond "Hey, I don't support racism!" and dismiss you, going along feeling quite happy and justified in their apathy.

Which would be too bad, as I think that apathy does far more damage than actual racism these days.

 

[Rickeroo]

Very serious question.

Because of affirmative action laws (which will be with us until at least 2050, when our minorities become the majority), I think that a person's ethnicity in disputed cases should be decided by a jury based on a person's looks.

For example, we have all read about some non-Caucasians who have passed for Caucasians. If they look Caucasian and claim to be Caucasian, then -- in my opinion -- common sense dictates that a rational jury should rule they are Caucasian for all intents and purposes.


On the other hand, my hypothetical jury would rule that a certain Senator is NOT a Native American.

I agree with you that where racism happens is via appearance, and it's by this metric that legal racial distinction must be employed. In another post I suggested a facial recognition algorithm that would mirror society's assessment of one's race. For those people that are right on the border (half of people would say this person is white, half would say he's black), that person, via the FRA, would be assigned a "black score" of 50 and entitled to exactly half of whatever legal rights a black person would have in a discrimination case.

 

[ecofarm]

I don't think apathy necessarily implies support. Not that I'm excusing apathy...it's just it's helpful when trying to call out a problem to have the right terms. One could easily respond "Hey, I don't support racism!" and dismiss you, going along feeling quite happy and justified in their apathy.

Which would be too bad, as I think that apathy does far more damage than actual racism these days.

Apathy is not the same as intentional ignorance. Intentional ignorance does - beyond any doubt - support racism.

It's you who has mislabeled. One cannot claim apathy at a debate site in a thread on the topic. That's like going to Comicon, going to a specific event there, and feigning apathy about it.

Make no mistake. What was being proposed is that we ignore racism so that it may grow. If you don't see it, look closer.

 

[OlNate]

Apathy is not the same as intentional ignorance. Intentional ignorance does - beyond any doubt - support racism.

It's you who has mislabeled. One cannot claim apathy at a debate site in a thread on the topic. That's like going to Comicon, going to a specific event there, and feigning apathy.

Is intentional ignorance possible? Playing dumb, sure...is that what you're referring to?

When I talk about apathy, I mean the attitude that says "I don't go out of my way to be intentionally racist, therefore none of this is my problem", and does nothing about it. I think that's different than saying "I hate {fill in the demographic here}". Also dangerous, but different.

Am I crazy?

 

[ecofarm]

Is intentional ignorance possible? Playing dumb, sure...is that what you're referring to?

When I talk about apathy, I mean the attitude that says "I don't go out of my way to be intentionally racist, therefore none of this is my problem", and does nothing about it. I think that's different than saying "I hate {fill in the demographic here}". Also dangerous, but different.

Am I crazy?

I think apathy exists, but those people are not at a debate website in a race thread. Apathy means doesn't care. They're making an effort on the subject.

And yes, intentional ignorance is real. When a racist sees their arguments circling the drain, they request everyone put their head in the sand.

 

[OlNate]

I think apathy exists, but those people are not at a debate website in a race thread. Apathy means doesn't care. They're making an effort on the subject.

And yes, intentional ignorance is real. When a racist sees their arguments circling the drain, they request everyone put their head in the sand.

Fair enough. But I do think people exist, even on this website, perhaps even in this thread, who feel that their apathy isn't racism, are likely bucking the constant allegations. To be clear, I think it's an easy distinction to miss, as the end result is very similar. I guess I'm just arguing for accuracy of vocabulary. Or because I like pounding on a keyboard...I dunno, been taking it on the chin today and feel less adamant about my statement than when I originally wrote it...hehe... I just think the distinction bears mentioning.

 

[ecofarm]

Fair enough. But I do think people exist, even on this website, perhaps even in this thread, who feel that their apathy isn't racism, are likely bucking the constant allegations. To be clear, I think it's an easy distinction to miss, as the end result is very similar. I guess I'm just arguing for accuracy of vocabulary. Or because I like pounding on a keyboard...I dunno, been taking it on the chin today and feel less adamant about my statement than when I originally wrote it...hehe... I just think the distinction bears mentioning.

I think you're cutting people too much slack. Spewing racist crap at a debate website in a race thread is not apathy.

Our debate is semantics, but I like semantic debates. I find it fleshes things out.

 

[OlNate]

I think you're cutting people too much slack. Spewing racist crap at a debate website in a race thread is not apathy.

Our debate is semantics, but I like semantic debates. I find it fleshes things out.

Agreed. And I feel the need to mention, despite the fact that I think you already know, that I appreciate you being calm about it - which is really the only way to discuss semantics.

 

[ecofarm]

Ideally, it should not be a consideration.

Trying to define it introduces issues, as you point out.

If we let individuals determine it themselves, weird outliers will arise.
If we go by the vague consensus as current, it's an aspect of racist systems, and there is a whole bunch of associated negatives depending on race.

By DNA is utterly unacceptable, and is not an option.
Far more potential issues down that route.

I think we can all live with the weird outliers. It's not like they bother me. People got issues, they try to deal with them, not my problem.

 

[ecofarm]

Agreed. And I feel the need to mention, despite the fact that I think you already know, that I appreciate you being calm about it - which is really the only way to discuss semantics.

I appear calm because I respect you. You bring decent arguments, even if sometimes I think you cut people too much slack. If I didn't respect you, I'd lean inflammatory.

 

[Lutherf]

Since we have affirmative action and punishment for racial discrimination, there is at least a de facto legal racial identity/definition. Therefore, one's race must be a legal status in order for discrimination laws to function.

Please give your input as to which racial metrics or methods should be used to determine legal racial identity, and who decides what race we are for the purposes of a racial discrimination case.

Your thoughts, please.

I'm thinking that the only fair way to do this is to have the applicant for racial (or gender) determination post their bio to Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. There will then be a 3 week determination period where the general public can express their opinions and vote for whether the change, if one is required, should be approved. Once approved through authorized social media channels the application will move on to a review by select social justice organizations. Once approved by the panel the application will once more be put to a social media vote but this time only select "Social Awareness Advocates" will be allowed to vote. SAAs will be appointed by the Social Justice Committee once they have accumulated sufficient posts, likes and followers to be deemed credible and reliable.

 

[OlNate]

I appear calm because I respect you. You bring decent arguments, even if sometimes I think you cut people too much slack. If I didn't respect you, I'd lean inflammatory.

I dunno...I still think apathy is bad. As I said originally, in today's day and age it could be more dangerous than blatant racism, which cannot be denied or excused....but I admit, perhaps I err on the side of cutting people too much slack...but only to encourage conversation. All the yelling doesn't seem to be working.

On a side note, thanks for the props... Not for the ego stroke (though that's always nice), but rather the timing... You never know when someone needs to hear something positive, or when you've said something positive to someone right when they need to hear it. Have a good one, bud.

 

[ecofarm]

I dunno...I still think apathy is bad.

Apathy is bad. The vast majority of racist crap comes from non-racist people. They don't wear hoods or have racist prison tats or even believe black people are inferior. They're just a product of society. We've been taught, indoctrinated, brainwashed and bullied into accepting black people as inferior for millennia, hundreds of generations. That kind of social engineering doesn't disappear overnight. Racism is part of my country's history, its present and, unfortunately, even its soul. Racism has not been exorcised from society, nor will it be next generation. Perhaps the most important aspect of its eventual demise is the recognition that non-racist people have racist crap fall out of their mouths plenty, far too often. It's not that they're personally racist, it's that society is.

 

[Phys251]

IMO if we really want to get rid of racism, then no one should be identified by race at all.

If we stopped caring about hunger, would everyone have enough to eat?

 

[joko104]

Racial identity in any government document, school record, birth record, or any employment application or record should be outlawed.

Native American tribal membership should be determined by tribal law, other than for calculating and required government payment, which should require dna of at least 25% to receive 50% benefits and 50% to receive 100% benefits - provided the governing tribal body also certified tribal membership. Anyone denied tribal membership regardless of dna would receive no government benefit based upon being Native American.

I make this comment about NA's because the government has settled lawsuits and federal laws providing for various benefits to certain tribes as settlement for land they owned stolen from them, which ranges for none to set amounts and/or services depending upon each tribe.

 

[joko104]

If we stopped caring about hunger, would everyone have enough to eat?

If food was distributed based upon race would everyone have enough to eat?

 

[joko104]

Apathy is bad. The vast majority of racist crap comes from non-racist people. They don't wear hoods or have racist prison tats or even believe black people are inferior. They're just a product of society. We've been taught, indoctrinated, brainwashed and bullied into accepting black people as inferior for millennia, hundreds of generations. That kind of social engineering doesn't disappear overnight. Racism is part of my country's history, its present and, unfortunately, even its soul. Racism has not been exorcised from society, nor will it be next generation. Perhaps the most important aspect of its eventual demise is the recognition that non-racist people have racist crap fall out of their mouths plenty, far too often. It's not that they're personally racist, it's that society is.

Even if having merit, your view has been corrupted in ways more harmful than helpful to blacks as it has evolved to an excuse for wrongful or lazy behavior more than it helps blacks in my opinion.

Your statement is that "society is racist" dependents upon what society a person is in compared to what race a person is in. The USA is not massive identical society, but a collection of hundreds, thousands or more societies collectively together under the same laws and nationality. You seem to view the USA as one massive hive of different color bees. I view the USA and a huge collection of a huge number of different hives and that there are 1000s of different color bees intermixed thru out those hives with little exception.

The most racist societies in the USA I have lived in where the racism had real, tangible and destructive potential was most significant and prevalent is not the majority white society. Possibly your experiences are different causing a different opinion - or maybe your (and my) opinions are based upon opposing dogma/beliefs/values.

 

[joko104]

I will provide the serious thought such questions warrant.

I think diet preferences are the most accurate measure of race:

Chinese eat dogs
Japanese eat raw sea slugs
Afro Americans eat water melon and fried chicken
Germans eat sauerkraut
Mexicans eat tacos
Italians eat guineas
and Real Africans eat each other.

There you have it, in a nutshell.

That is not racial, its cultural.

What do you say white people eat? You left that off.

 

[ecofarm]

Even if having merit, your view has been corrupted in ways more harmful than helpful to blacks as it has evolved to an excuse for wrongful or lazy behavior more than it helps blacks in my opinion.

Your statement is that "society is racist" dependents upon what society a person is in compared to what race a person is in. The USA is not massive identical society, but a collection of hundreds, thousands or more societies collectively together under the same laws and nationality. You seem to view the USA as one massive hive of different color bees. I view the USA and a huge collection of a huge number of different hives and that there are 1000s of different color bees intermixed thru out those hives with little exception.

The most racist societies in the USA I have lived in where the racism had real, tangible and destructive potential was most significant and prevalent is not the majority white society. Possibly your experiences are different causing a different opinion - or maybe your (and my) opinions are based upon opposing dogma/beliefs/values.

The context of racism is global. G l o b a l. Spell it out again. Someday, maybe you'll have a clue what you're babbling about.

 

[maxparrish]

That is not racial, its cultural.

What do you say white people eat? You left that off.

It's also a joke. That said, white people eat whatever the hell they want - well, except other people.

 

[Phys251]

If food was distributed based upon race would everyone have enough to eat?

I asked first.

 

[ecofarm]

It's also a joke. That said, white people eat whatever the hell they want - well, except other people.

American serial killers and cannibals are almost exclusively white.