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A numbers game - have we become a lower-class nation?

Lafayette

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What is the class-breakdown income-wise of American households?

First, a definition from WikiP:
The American middle class is a social class in the United States. While the concept is typically ambiguous in popular opinion and common language use, contemporary social scientists have put forward several more or less congruent theories on the American middle class. Depending on the class model used, the middle class constitutes anywhere from 25% to 66% of households.

But there is still a controversy about that definition, so read the rest of the article here.

Note nonetheless, this warning here:
Household income figures, however, do not always reflect class status and standard of living, as they are largely influenced by the number of income earners and fail to recognize household size. It is therefore possible for a large, dual-earner, lower middle class household to out-earn a small, one-earner, upper middle class household.

Which means what? That we do comparative assessments not based upon individual income but dual-parent income - because as more women attain higher levels of education and thus income-status, the notion of "household" becomes more important than individual.

Here's yet another way to look at the Income Pie (data-wise, 2010), Source: Percentage of population by Income Group (WikiPedia):
Personal_Household_Income_U.png


Categorizing households as Lower-Middle-Upper Classes (Yearly Income, Census Bureau):
-Lowest-Class (up to $25K, which is the Poverty Threshold) - 28%
-Upper Lower-Class (25K$ to $50K*) - 23%
-Middle-Class (50K to $100K) - 29%
-Upper-Class (Beyond $100K) - 17%

So, our Lower-Class of households/families constitute more than half of the total? And our Middle and Upper-Class together are just a bit less than half of the total**?

WOW ... !

*$54K is the national median income in the US
**Which corresponds with the economist Thomas Piketty, who presents this Income infographic:
Income Share History - 10Percenters.jpg

Caveat: The above WikiPedia infographic is an analysis based upon Census Bureau interviews of families. Other studies have shown similar but not the same numbers.
________________
 
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joG

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What is the class-breakdown income-wise of American households?

First, a definition from WikiP:

But there is still a controversy about that definition, so read the rest of the article here.

Note nonetheless, this warning here:

Which means what? That we do comparative assessments not based upon individual income but dual-parent income - because as more women attain higher levels of education and thus income-status, the notion of "household" becomes more important than individual.

Here's yet another way to look at the Income Pie (data-wise, 2010), Source: Percentage of population by Income Group (WikiPedia):
Personal_Household_Income_U.png


Categorizing households as Lower-Middle-Upper Classes (Yearly Income, Census Bureau):
-Lowest-Class (up to $25K, which is the Poverty Threshold) - 28%
-Upper Lower-Class (25K$ to $50K*) - 23%
-Middle-Class (50K to $100K) - 29%
-Upper-Class (Beyond $100K) - 17%

So, our Lower-Class of households/families constitute more than half of the total? And our Middle and Upper-Class together are just a bit less than half of the total**?

WOW ... !

*$54K is the national median income in the US
**Which corresponds with the economist Thomas Piketty, who presents this Income infographic:
View attachment 67204665

Caveat: The above WikiPedia infographic is an analysis based upon Census Bureau interviews of families. Other studies have shown similar but not the same numbers.
________________

Why are you so intent on creating that most European evil envy with false arguments? The simplifications are undue and misleading. You know that.

The bottom income groups in the US have more buying power after transfers in PPP terms than in the EU. That might not be quite fair, but looking at the numbers is quite breathtaking. That is one of many reasons the top quantiles seem to have done less well than their US counterparts.

But you must realize that these shifts in factor prices of which wages are one set are closely and inextricably linked to global shifts in allocation. So please, please stop trying to emtionalize the topic with populist false simplification.
 

Moderate Right

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What is the class-breakdown income-wise of American households?

First, a definition from WikiP:

But there is still a controversy about that definition, so read the rest of the article here.

Note nonetheless, this warning here:

Which means what? That we do comparative assessments not based upon individual income but dual-parent income - because as more women attain higher levels of education and thus income-status, the notion of "household" becomes more important than individual.

Here's yet another way to look at the Income Pie (data-wise, 2010), Source: Percentage of population by Income Group (WikiPedia):
Personal_Household_Income_U.png


Categorizing households as Lower-Middle-Upper Classes (Yearly Income, Census Bureau):
-Lowest-Class (up to $25K, which is the Poverty Threshold) - 28%
-Upper Lower-Class (25K$ to $50K*) - 23%
-Middle-Class (50K to $100K) - 29%
-Upper-Class (Beyond $100K) - 17%

So, our Lower-Class of households/families constitute more than half of the total? And our Middle and Upper-Class together are just a bit less than half of the total**?

WOW ... !

*$54K is the national median income in the US
**Which corresponds with the economist Thomas Piketty, who presents this Income infographic:
View attachment 67204665

Caveat: The above WikiPedia infographic is an analysis based upon Census Bureau interviews of families. Other studies have shown similar but not the same numbers.
________________

Yes, France has become a lower class nation. They should strive to be more like the US and then they wouldn't be a lower class nation.
 

Fenton

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What is the class-breakdown income-wise of American households?

First, a definition from WikiP:

But there is still a controversy about that definition, so read the rest of the article here.

Note nonetheless, this warning here:

Which means what? That we do comparative assessments not based upon individual income but dual-parent income - because as more women attain higher levels of education and thus income-status, the notion of "household" becomes more important than individual.

Here's yet another way to look at the Income Pie (data-wise, 2010), Source: Percentage of population by Income Group (WikiPedia):
Personal_Household_Income_U.png


Categorizing households as Lower-Middle-Upper Classes (Yearly Income, Census Bureau):
-Lowest-Class (up to $25K, which is the Poverty Threshold) - 28%
-Upper Lower-Class (25K$ to $50K*) - 23%
-Middle-Class (50K to $100K) - 29%
-Upper-Class (Beyond $100K) - 17%

So, our Lower-Class of households/families constitute more than half of the total? And our Middle and Upper-Class together are just a bit less than half of the total**?

WOW ... !

*$54K is the national median income in the US
**Which corresponds with the economist Thomas Piketty, who presents this Income infographic:
View attachment 67204665

Caveat: The above WikiPedia infographic is an analysis based upon Census Bureau interviews of families. Other studies have shown similar but not the same numbers.
________________



We ? YOU DONT LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES.

You live in the basket case of a Socialist Country now inundated with Islamic Jihadist called France

We dont want the cancer that turned France into what it is today in America
 

Lafayette

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MEGALOMANIAC

We ? YOU DONT LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES. You live in the basket case of a Socialist Country now inundated with Islamic Jihadist called France.

Nope - it's called a Social Democracy, and if you had an ounce of intelligence you would know the difference.

What you know about "socialism" would fit a thimble.

We dont want the cancer that turned France into what it is today in America

We, who? The rump-idiots trying to manipulate the Dork into the White House?

A guy who inherits 40 megabucks from his father and then makes megabucks more in real-estate? Right! Just the kinda megalomaniac who's going to correct America's Rampant Income Disparity with his Magic Wand ...
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Lafayette

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Yes, France has become a lower class nation. They should strive to be more like the US and then they wouldn't be a lower class nation.

What you know of France would fit a thimble.

For instance:
*It has the best National HealthCare System in the world (see World Health Organization study here), and
*Free Post-secondary Education (vocational, 2- & 4-year) unlike the US where students are graduating with a $50K debt-albatross hanging around their necks (see here), and
*It is in the higher ranking internationally of GDP per capita, see here.

This is an Economics Forum, and you need to be more careful of what you say. Like substantiating your opinion with factual evidence?

Try it, you'll like it ...
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Lafayette

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But you must realize that these shifts in factor prices of which wages are one set are closely and inextricably linked to global shifts in allocation. So please, please stop trying to emtionalize the topic with populist false simplification.

Blah,blah, blah - "factor-price-shifts", me arse.

You refuse to face the facts of Income Disparity, largely due to a misbegotten Upper-income Tax Reformation pulled off by Reckless Ronnie in the 1980s. So, off you go on an argumentative tangent to salve your ego.

Come back with a valid reasoning substantiating the fact that the US is NOT one of the worst Developed Economies in terms of Income Disparity. (As seen here: International Income Inequality Map )

Lotsa luck! Cuz yer gonna need it ... !
________________________________



 

joG

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Blah,blah, blah - "factor-price-shifts", me arse.

You refuse to face the facts of Income Disparity, largely due to a misbegotten Upper-income Tax Reformation pulled off by Reckless Ronnie in the 1980s. So, off you go on an argumentative tangent to salve your ego.

Come back with a valid reasoning substantiating the fact that the US is NOT one of the worst Developed Economies in terms of Income Disparity. (As seen here: International Income Inequality Map )

Lotsa luck! Cuz yer gonna need it ... !
________________________________




The thing is that you are all excited by the symptom of global development and beat a drum of envy that does so much harm to Europeans and makes their politicians continuously lie. That leads you to focus not on causes but on symptom alleviation. You are complaining about inequality from economic activities in a highly interwoven system. Don't you realize that taking an index and explaining it without looking at the dynamics of the international system is ignorant at best and obvious propaganda at the other end of the scale?
 

Lafayette

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The thing is that you are all excited by the symptom of global development and beat a drum of envy that does so much harm to Europeans and makes their politicians continuously lie. That leads you to focus not on causes but on symptom alleviation. You are complaining about inequality from economic activities in a highly interwoven system. Don't you realize that taking an index and explaining it without looking at the dynamics of the international system is ignorant at best and obvious propaganda at the other end of the scale?

Oh, yeah - I am the root of all evil. And what else? The Dark Angel of Death?

Stop the puerile sarcasm about "me". Your responses are without the slightest factual substantiation.

You need seriously to get back on track. This is an economics forum and you are proffering false premises because you have not been able to refute the hard-data presented.

You support Replicant Right defending their "liberty" to rip-off the rest of their fellow citizens and amass wealth at the expense of impoverishing others.

You (plural) have found your "Saint" in the persona of the Dunderhead who is "Gonna make Amurika strong again!" Gross BS. Uncle Sam IS strong, no doubt, but also economically unfair!

Just like Dubya, if elected, Trump will fall into place; perhaps start a war here or there, and increase the DoD-budget instead of spending the money where it should be employed. That is, Universal HealthCare System & Tertiary Education Subvention.

Two key National Policies where the lack of both leaves Uncle Sam in the Dark Ages compared to other developed nations ...
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joG

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Oh, yeah - I am the root of all evil. And what else? The Dark Angel of Death?

.....

"Stop the puerile sarcasm". I only questioned the reason for your spreading false content that furthers populist envy.
 

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What you know of France would fit a thimble.

For instance:
*It has the best National HealthCare System in the world (see World Health Organization study here), and
*Free Post-secondary Education (vocational, 2- & 4-year) unlike the US where students are graduating with a $50K debt-albatross hanging around their necks (see here), and
*It is in the higher ranking internationally of GDP per capita, see here.

This is an Economics Forum, and you need to be more careful of what you say. Like substantiating your opinion with factual evidence?

Try it, you'll like it ...
___________________________________
I am not sure it is a straight one for one comparison, between the US and France.
Standards of living vary greatly, but the meter stick of measure is quite different.
An American might aspire to owning a 230 M2 home outside the city.
A Frenchman on the other hand might aspire to an 80 M2 apartment near the metro.
 

Moderate Right

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What you know of France would fit a thimble.

For instance:
*It has the best National HealthCare System in the world (see World Health Organization study here), and
*Free Post-secondary Education (vocational, 2- & 4-year) unlike the US where students are graduating with a $50K debt-albatross hanging around their necks (see here), and
*It is in the higher ranking internationally of GDP per capita, see here.

This is an Economics Forum, and you need to be more careful of what you say. Like substantiating your opinion with factual evidence?

Try it, you'll like it ...
___________________________________

Thanks for pointing out that this is an economics forum so, as a favor to you, I won't mention the constant terror attacks in France over the last few years, which are far more than what has happened in the US over the last few years. Let's break that down per capita! But, back to economics. The US has, by far, the largest economy in the world. It represents over 24% of the world's economic output while France represents only a mere 3% and it is expected to stay that way through 2020. The US economy is eight times the size of France, who ranks 6th in size. You are a third world country in both the economy and terrorism.

World GDP Ranking 2015 - StatisticsTimes.com
 

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I am not sure it is a straight one for one comparison, between the US and France.

Standards of living vary greatly, but the meter stick of measure is quite different. An American might aspire to owning a 230 M2 home outside the city. A Frenchman on the other hand might aspire to an 80 M2 apartment near the metro.

Anyone familiar with "standards of living" measurements knows, first hand, that said measurements are necessary (as a classification) but never sufficient. That needed sufficiency is found in "quality of life" and unfortunately these are less determinable by simple numbers.

In terms of middle-class existence, situations need not be the same - but they should be similar. Europeans do not need as much "space" as Yanks, because they grow up with a smaller notion of the world around them. Your population density per square meter is lot different from Europe.
521px-Countries_by_Population_Density_in_2015.svg.png

In this context, people simply approach life with a different sense of "dimension".

But what about Quality of life? I feel this latter is the more important of the two. But the measurement of the "Standards-of-living" are far different from that of "Quality of life". The former, you can find here, but the latter is a lot more difficult to assess. Because Value-Judgments interfere with the measurement process. (You say "poh-tay-tow" and I say "puh-tat-oh".)

But the continual harping about "freedom" in this forum is disconcerting. Do you really think you are "more free" in America than others on this earth?

Then I heartily suggest you get out and see - and it takes more than just visiting abroad for a few weeks.

You must also live there a significant amount of time ...
-----------------------
 

Lafayette

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Thanks for pointing out that this is an economics forum so, as a favor to you, I won't mention the constant terror attacks in France over the last few years, which are far more than what has happened in the US over the last few years. Let's break that down per capita! But, back to economics.

So? You (plural) are lucky on that count. Europe has more Muslims than the US, and since a long, long time. And recently, the number has skyrocketed with the migrants from Syria.

But, so what? You had your heyday over in the Iraqi sandbox, and it cost Uncle Sam 4500 lives for Dubya to have recuperated the two six-guns that his father had gifted Saddam Hussein.

The US has, by far, the largest economy in the world. It represents over 24% of the world's economic output while France represents only a mere 3% and it is expected to stay that way through 2020. The US economy is eight times the size of France, who ranks 6th in size. You are a third world country in both the economy and terrorism.

World GDP Ranking 2015 - StatisticsTimes.com

That ain't necessarily so. Your link compares the US and the individual EU-countries, but not the total (EU21).

When counting the EU vs the US (GDP), the situation changes. See here:
cotd-eu-us-china-india-gdp-ppp.png


Where the US beats the EU21 (countries) is in GDP per capita (2015):
US = $55.8K
EU = $40K (71% of the US)

The EU will close that per capita GDP-gap with the US in five years. (Three years if the Dunderhead gets elected. ;^)
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Moderate Right

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So? You (plural) are lucky on that count. Europe has more Muslims than the US, and since a long, long time. And recently, the number has skyrocketed with the migrants from Syria.

But, so what? You had your heyday over in the Iraqi sandbox, and it cost Uncle Sam 4500 lives for Dubya to have recuperated the two six-guns that his father had gifted Saddam Hussein.



That ain't necessarily so. Your link compares the US and the individual EU-countries, but not the total (EU21).

When counting the EU vs the US (GDP), the situation changes. See here:
cotd-eu-us-china-india-gdp-ppp.png


Where the US beats the EU21 (countries) is in GDP per capita (2015):
US = $55.8K
EU = $40K (71% of the US)

The EU will close that per capita GDP-gap with the US in five years. (Three years if the Dunderhead gets elected. ;^)
______________________________________

So now you're comparing one country to 21 countries added together? You will stop at nothing to try proving your point. And then you want to compare all the terror attacks on civilians in France to military lives the US lost in wars? That's comparing apples to oranges. Face the fact, France is a third world country whose liberal policies have destroyed the country. Terror is everywhere because they welcome unvetted Muslim refugees with open arms and the economy is only 1/8 that of the US because you tax the rich to death and allow everyone else to live off the rich. France's economy could be much larger if you didn't tax the rich so much and didn't allow a bunch of freeloaders to not work. Working drives the economy so common sense would tell you that not working hurts the economy. Face the facts, France sucks!
 

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So now you're comparing one country to 21 countries added together? You will stop at nothing to try proving your point. And then you want to compare all the terror attacks on civilians in France to military lives the US lost in wars? That's comparing apples to oranges. Face the fact, France is a third world country whose liberal policies have destroyed the country.

For economic purposes, the EU is considered a single market-economy (goods and services internally move unhindered by import taxes) and therefore highly comparable to the US - which is also a combination of sub-states. (A fact that seems to escape you.)

Face the facts, France sucks!

And now, sarcasm ... the Dunderhead is waiting anxiously for your vote! :doh
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Lafayette

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But, back to economics. The US has, by far, the largest economy in the world. It represents over 24% of the world's economic output while France represents only a mere 3% and it is expected to stay that way through 2020. The US economy is eight times the size of France, who ranks 6th in size. You are a third world country in both the economy and terrorism.

But it doesn't! The EU has a larger economy, and China has (in size of GDP) almost as large an economy.

Get your numbers right! Debate starts with the numbers and then gets into the nitty-gritty of detail. Wherein lies enormous subjectivity even among professional economists!

The Right has had plenty of economists on its side. Some have had a profound impact upon economic theory. But, you (plural) here in this forum are fighting to maintain a simple fact: That "the US is the Greatest Nation on Earth".

And it isn't anymore. Moreover, the US is becoming less great day-by-day as Social Democracies demonstrate that our "communal welfare" is more important to peoples' lives than the "absolute wealth of a select class".

And that notion has its historical roots in the upheavals that began in the latter part of the 18th century! Which some call "revolutions" against the existing order.

So, if you (plural) want that to happen again, then continue to disregard the Income Disparity that is putting its ugly-nose back into our American society because of improper upper-income taxation ...
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For economic purposes, the EU is considered a single market-economy (goods and services internally move unhindered by import taxes) and therefore highly comparable to the US - which is also a combination of sub-states. (A fact that seems to escape you.)



And now, sarcasm ... the Dunderhead is waiting anxiously for your vote! :doh
____________________________


You just can't escape the fact that France is a loser. LOSER! First it's all you can talk about how great France is compared to the US and then when I throw up stats proving what a losing third world country it is, all of a sudden you switch the argument to the entire 20 plus countries EU. The EU is such a loser that the UK even voted to leave! Put those facts in your pipe and smoke it.
 

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You just can't escape the fact that France is a loser. LOSER! First it's all you can talk about how great France is compared to the US and then when I throw up stats proving what a losing third world country it is, all of a sudden you switch the argument to the entire 20 plus countries EU.

Wrong again. What I told you, and evidently you did not read, is that the US economically is comparative to the EU and not France. Now, if you want to compare France with, say, California and Texas - which together have about the same population - then be my guest.

The EU is such a loser that the UK even voted to leave! Put those facts in your pipe and smoke it.

And we shall see in a decade or so when they come knocking on the door to get back in. Even their new PM was against leaving. The vote swayed to Out because of the migrants that the EU accepted over the past 18 months. London, for instance, voted solidly to stay in - and it is not impossible that Northern Ireland and Scotland will leave Great Britain to remain in the EU.

Most importantly, however, you do not understand that you are in an Economics Forum. I have no time for fools who refuse to debate the factual economic evidence.

I'm done with you.
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Wrong again. What I told you, and evidently you did not read, is that the US economically is comparative to the EU and not France. Now, if you want to compare France with, say, California and Texas - which together have about the same population - then be my guest.



And we shall see in a decade or so when they come knocking on the door to get back in. Even their new PM was against leaving. The vote swayed to Out because of the migrants that the EU accepted over the past 18 months. London, for instance, voted solidly to stay in - and it is not impossible that Northern Ireland and Scotland will leave Great Britain to remain in the EU.

Most importantly, however, you do not understand that you are in an Economics Forum. I have no time for fools who refuse to debate the factual economic evidence.

I'm done with you.
____________________________________________

Like a true liberal, you manipulate facts to suit your needs. At first you were talking about how great France was compared to the US and then when I beat you up with that you moved the goal posts to including the entire EU compared to the US. Real fair, comparing one country to 20 plus countries and, even at that, the EU just barely edges out the US in economic statistics. This doesn't take into account that the UK is leaving the EU, after which the US, all by itself, will have a better economy than the entire EU. And, you conveniently leave out how many people in both France and the EU are killed by terrorists compared to the US, where you once again switch the goal posts to talk about straight up numbers instead of per capita (the exact opposite of what you do regarding the economy). How about breaking down civilians killed by terrorists into a per capita figure? Let's face it, both France and the EU are liberal bastions of economic and terrorist disasters. Look at the liberal economic disasters in Greece and some other EU countries where those liberal policies ran their countries into the ground. There is a reason why the US has the largest economy in the world and billions of legal and illegal immigrants flood into our country. As many problems as we have here we are the wannabe place to go, while you guys let in all the unvetted Muslim terrorists due to your liberal policies. You can cherry pick all the stats you want but it doesn't change the fact that both France and many other countries in the EU are third world countries and losers. The entire world uses US dollars as it's currency to compare to. There's a reason for that.
 
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