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A note from a sane republican

azgreg

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https://medium.com/@JeffFlake/as-a-...-defeated-in-november-6cb9a70686c3#.dvhtfsxo0

As a conservative Republican, I believe that Hillary Clinton needs to be defeated in November. Her lengthy record is inconsistent with the principles of limited government and economic freedom that Republicans hold dear, and it begs to be seriously challenged. Whether it is her extreme naiveté in initiating the Russian “reset” that has only emboldened Russian adventurism, her cheerleading for the Obama administration’s ill fated Libya intervention, her embrace of Obamacare just as health care providers are abandoning the program in droves, her penchant for overregulation that is stifling wage and job growth, her campaign-induced flip-flopping on issues such as Keystone and trade policy, the absence of meaningful thought about reining in our deficit and paying down our debt — not to mention the careless and cavalier manner in which she treated classified information as Secretary of State. These are just a few items from a lengthy list Hillary Clinton’s vulnerabilities.
But one thing is certain, Republicans are not going to defeat Hillary Clinton in November by insisting that she belongs in prison any more than we defeated Barack Obama by pretending that he was born in Kenya. So let’s drop the references to orange pant suits and chants of “lock her up.” These jokes and bromides may play well in rare venues and limited circles, but they cheapen the very real arguments that need to be made to the broader public against a Hillary Clinton presidency.

i don't always agree with Flake, but he's right here.
 

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Meh, we can do both. Besides an orange pantsuit suits her.

hillary-clinton-pantsuits.jpg
 

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"is inconsistent with the principles of limited government and economic freedom that Republicans hold dear"

Wow. He actually seems to think people will take him seriously with laughable claims like that?

Being that actual fiscal conservative, constitution defending members of the GOP, like me, agree with what he said, then yeah, the people that aren't already on Hillary's sycophant team, or those that find fault in everything Republican, or believe that the entire GOP is made up of racist assholes, understand what he said is what the GOP is supposed to stand for.

Now, we can take what he said even further if you'd like and talk about how the Republicans in Congress haven't been fiscally conservative and have spent money like Democrats while they've held power, and that the GOP can't be demanding that the federal government wield power they do not Constitutionally have by get involved in people's private lives (specifically getting into their bedrooms and into women's doctor's offices), and we should get back to what we're supposed to stand for: the principles of limited government and economic freedom. That I agree with as well.

So again, yeah, he's correct and I agree with him.
 

azgreg

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Being that actual fiscal conservative, constitution defending members of the GOP, like me, agree with what he said, then yeah, the people that aren't already on Hillary's sycophant team, or those that find fault in everything Republican, or believe that the entire GOP is made up of racist assholes, understand what he said is what the GOP is supposed to stand for.

Now, we can take what he said even further if you'd like and talk about how the Republicans in Congress haven't been fiscally conservative and have spent money like Democrats while they've held power, and that the GOP can't be demanding that the federal government wield power they do not Constitutionally have by get involved in people's private lives (specifically getting into their bedrooms and into women's doctor's offices), and we should get back to what we're supposed to stand for: the principles of limited government and economic freedom. That I agree with as well.

So again, yeah, he's correct and I agree with him.

I'm with you there. I consider myself one of the many that feel we didn't leave the GOP, the GOP left us.
 

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I'm with you there. I consider one of the many that feel we didn't leave the GOP, the GOP left us.

Yeah, my local Congressional Representative, his Chief of Staff, my wife and I, had lunch a couple weeks back. It was the bi-annual donation grope. Up until this lunch, he has always been able to count on me for a donation - usually I would max out on what the law allows.

Not this year. It wasn't him that caused me to make that choice. It was his Chief of Staff. We were talking about most things you'd expect, and then the COS made the comment that burns my butt every time I hear it - you're either a Christian social conservative or you're a Liberal RINO. I stopped midsentence and just stared at him. After a few seconds, he started staring back. My wife reached over and put her hand on my arm because she knew what was getting ready happen.

We had just gotten our drinks and our salads hadn't even been served yet, but my conversation with the Congressman became a lecture from me to his COS with my wife acting like every thing was just fine and the Congressman watching and listening intently.

I don't feel like going into it right now in detail, just suffice to say, I opened with "I've been called a RINO a hell of a lot lately by people that don't have damned clue what they're talking about." And, I ended with, "If that makes me a RION, and makes my beliefs not worthy of your time or respect, then maybe I just need to not be Republican any longer." At which point, my Congressman said, "Well, on that note." and stood up. To whit I turned and looked at him and said, "I guess I shouldn't expect a call from you in two years?"

My problem, is that I have no where to go. Compared to the GOP, the Democrats are even worse Constitutionally, even less fiscally conservative (which is hard to do lately), way too damned Socialist, and too divisive on racial issues to a point that I don't see a slot within their special groups for me fit into. Blue dog Democrats are even scarce nowadays (maybe they're just hiding). I guess I'm just going to have to stay a RINO for now, but it makes me sick sometimes to see what my party has turned into.
 

azgreg

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My problem, is that I have no where to go. Compared to the GOP, the Democrats are even worse Constitutionally, even less fiscally conservative (which is hard to do lately), way too damned Socialist, and too divisive on racial issues to a point that I don't see a slot within their special groups for me fit into. Blue dog Democrats are even scarce nowadays (maybe they're just hiding). I guess I'm just going to have to stay a RINO for now, but it makes me sick sometimes to see what my party has turned into.
I'm in the same boat. I recently re-registered as an independent. I find myself these days paying attention to the issues and not on the planks. It's funny but the one party I agree with the most is the Modern Whigs. They won one small election last time (some Philly position) and nothing else I recall. Oh well.
 

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Yeah, my local Congressional Representative, his Chief of Staff, my wife and I, had lunch a couple weeks back. It was the bi-annual donation grope. Up until this lunch, he has always been able to count on me for a donation - usually I would max out on what the law allows.

Not this year. It wasn't him that caused me to make that choice. It was his Chief of Staff. We were talking about most things you'd expect, and then the COS made the comment that burns my butt every time I hear it - you're either a Christian social conservative or you're a Liberal RINO. I stopped midsentence and just stared at him. After a few seconds, he started staring back. My wife reached over and put her hand on my arm because she knew what was getting ready happen.

We had just gotten our drinks and our salads hadn't even been served yet, but my conversation with the Congressman became a lecture from me to his COS with my wife acting like every thing was just fine and the Congressman watching and listening intently.

I don't feel like going into it right now in detail, just suffice to say, I opened with "I've been called a RINO a hell of a lot lately by people that don't have damned clue what they're talking about." And, I ended with, "If that makes me a RION, and makes my beliefs not worthy of your time or respect, then maybe I just need to not be Republican any longer." At which point, my Congressman said, "Well, on that note." and stood up. To whit I turned and looked at him and said, "I guess I shouldn't expect a call from you in two years?"

My problem, is that I have no where to go. Compared to the GOP, the Democrats are even worse Constitutionally, even less fiscally conservative (which is hard to do lately), way too damned Socialist, and too divisive on racial issues to a point that I don't see a slot within their special groups for me fit into. Blue dog Democrats are even scarce nowadays (maybe they're just hiding). I guess I'm just going to have to stay a RINO for now, but it makes me sick sometimes to see what my party has turned into.

Sorry for that silly confrontation. What a jack-ass thing for a COS to do. Not to be too confrontational myself but I don't think your republican party has turned into anything different. I think their most vocally supported base is and has been the evangelicals for the longest time. I think in the past the GOP has been walking a tight-rope and staying hush about it in certain circles and are just not so silent about it anymore. Forever and a day they've been running their mouths as if they held up the Libertarian Party principles as their vision, then they would go run to kiss Jerry Falwell's ring.

While I'm not conservative, I think it'd be so much better politically to see debates between liberals and conservatives where the social cons are put into the dunce corner and completely forgotten. It's so hard to guide a nation in any direction when these idiots are constantly demanding nonstop attention to their causes of gays and abortion.
 

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Sorry for that silly confrontation. What a jack-ass thing for a COS to do. Not to be too confrontational myself but I don't think your republican party has turned into anything different. I think their most vocally supported base is and has been the evangelicals for the longest time. I think in the past the GOP has been walking a tight-rope and staying hush about it in certain circles and are just not so silent about it anymore. Forever and a day they've been running their mouths as if they held up the Libertarian Party principles as their vision, then they would go run to kiss Jerry Falwell's ring.

While I'm not conservative, I think it'd be so much better politically to see debates between liberals and conservatives where the social cons are put into the dunce corner and completely forgotten. It's so hard to guide a nation in any direction when these idiots are constantly demanding nonstop attention to their causes of gays and abortion.

I'm a Goldwater Republican, and the take over of the Republican party started in the 1980's - here's some of Goldwater's quotations I like:

I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass. - July 20, 1981

You don't need to be straight to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight. - June 10, 1993


And unfortunately, this prediction made in June of 1994 came true: “Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”
 

azgreg

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Goldwater Republican. I like that.
 

poweRob

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I'm a Goldwater Republican, and the take over of the Republican party started in the 1980's - here's some of Goldwater's quotations I like:

I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass. - July 20, 1981

You don't need to be straight to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight. - June 10, 1993


And unfortunately, this prediction made in June of 1994 came true: “Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”

Goldwater is the embodiment of libertarianism. The wing of the GOP the Republicans threw in the trash in the 80's unfortunately.
 

azgreg

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Here's another Goldwater quote I like.

I am a conservative Republican, but I believe in democracy and the separation of church and state. The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don’t hurt anyone else in the process.

You're right Rob, Pretty libertarian there.
 

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Goldwater is the embodiment of libertarianism. The wing of the GOP the Republicans threw in the trash in the 80's unfortunately.

It wasn't thrown out by all of us. Libertarianism is no different than any other thing that feels good - it has to be taken in moderation with just a splash of compromise as a chaser, which is the very basic difference between a Goldwater conservative GOPer, and what I call a full bore free-range Libertarian.
 

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Being that actual fiscal conservative, constitution defending members of the GOP, like me, agree with what he said, then yeah, the people that aren't already on Hillary's sycophant team, or those that find fault in everything Republican, or believe that the entire GOP is made up of racist assholes, understand what he said is what the GOP is supposed to stand for.

Thing is, there are likely plenty of people like you, but the clowns that self-described republicans keep electing have absolutely zero record of supporting limited gov't and freedom and the like. All historical data, based on their actions, indicates the exact opposite.
Now, we can take what he said even further if you'd like and talk about how the Republicans in Congress haven't been fiscally conservative and have spent money like Democrats while they've held power, and that the GOP can't be demanding that the federal government wield power they do not Constitutionally have by get involved in people's private lives (specifically getting into their bedrooms and into women's doctor's offices), and we should get back to what we're supposed to stand for: the principles of limited government and economic freedom. That I agree with as well.

So again, yeah, he's correct and I agree with him.

So, by my reading, you agree with what he said, but the problem is that he's just mouthing platitudes and tropes with no basis in reality. He himself doesn't believe it.

Noble to believe in such things, and I mostly agree with you, but repubs and conservatives keep putting the same clowns in office, occasionally changing the window dressing, and expecting that people will actually believe their rhetoric.
 

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As far as the economy, it's doing pretty well. We recently had a through the roof jobs report. Considering that we were on the brink of the Second Great Depression when Obama took over, we have come through pretty well. We would have gotten further in a shorter time period if the Republicans hadn't gone on strike and refused to help the country, instead choosing to make their main goal to be that Obama shouldn't win a second term (no matter the cost to the citizens and the country) (as Mitch McConnell stated).

The economy has generally done better under Democratic Party rule than Republican. Trickle down is a fiction and has never benefited the country's economy.

Having said that, I wish Obamacare would go away, but Trump doesn't have a plan for that.

As for the protection of Social Security and Medicare, I think the Democrats get that vote.

Not sure about Russia and Libya. Putin doesn't generally like people who don't further his causes. He has stated he likes Trump.

I don't like either candidate much, but I'll have to go with Clinton because of the above issues. I considered going for Trump, but his views toward women, his statements about them (it doesn't surprise me that he ordered someone to write Melania's speech for her, since I doubt he considers that she's capable), his statements about illegal immigrants (while I agree with what he MEANT, what he SAID and how he said it were horrible and not something we should tolerate in a President), his statements about Muslims (while we need to do something...his blanket statements were legally wrong and offensive and not tempered and diplomatic - unpresidential). He's so full of hate, anger, and he promotes violence in his attitude and motions. He has actually imitated negatively a disabled person on stage. Is that what we want in the dignified office of the Presidency? Someone who criticizes a Prisoner of War for not being a hero, when he himself got out of having to see action in war time?

Oh, and the stock market has hit several all time highs in the last month. The economy is buzzing along. Look at your 401k and smile.
 

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It wasn't thrown out by all of us. Libertarianism is no different than any other thing that feels good - it has to be taken in moderation with just a splash of compromise as a chaser, which is the very basic difference between a Goldwater conservative GOPer, and what I call a full bore free-range Libertarian.

That's one of the tougher things about third parties. They are very pure and their followers tend to be extremely rigid about compromise. That is a huge impediment to third party's ability to grow. I experienced that nonsense when I was active in the green party years ago.
 

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Yeah, my local Congressional Representative, his Chief of Staff, my wife and I, had lunch a couple weeks back. It was the bi-annual donation grope. Up until this lunch, he has always been able to count on me for a donation - usually I would max out on what the law allows.

Not this year. It wasn't him that caused me to make that choice. It was his Chief of Staff. We were talking about most things you'd expect, and then the COS made the comment that burns my butt every time I hear it - you're either a Christian social conservative or you're a Liberal RINO. I stopped midsentence and just stared at him. After a few seconds, he started staring back. My wife reached over and put her hand on my arm because she knew what was getting ready happen.

We had just gotten our drinks and our salads hadn't even been served yet, but my conversation with the Congressman became a lecture from me to his COS with my wife acting like every thing was just fine and the Congressman watching and listening intently.

I don't feel like going into it right now in detail, just suffice to say, I opened with "I've been called a RINO a hell of a lot lately by people that don't have damned clue what they're talking about." And, I ended with, "If that makes me a RION, and makes my beliefs not worthy of your time or respect, then maybe I just need to not be Republican any longer." At which point, my Congressman said, "Well, on that note." and stood up. To whit I turned and looked at him and said, "I guess I shouldn't expect a call from you in two years?"

My problem, is that I have no where to go. Compared to the GOP, the Democrats are even worse Constitutionally, even less fiscally conservative (which is hard to do lately), way too damned Socialist, and too divisive on racial issues to a point that I don't see a slot within their special groups for me fit into. Blue dog Democrats are even scarce nowadays (maybe they're just hiding). I guess I'm just going to have to stay a RINO for now, but it makes me sick sometimes to see what my party has turned into.

The GOP platform. If you don't support that you are a RINO or a liberal scum or a gay, crossdressing, Francophile who hates America and is also probably a Muslim. Sadly your options are slim to none, brother. Ain't no room for any other kind of Republican in today's GOP.

Sounds to me as if the COS and your Congressman are in fact Teapartisans. They call may themselves Republicans but in truth they are likely from a GOP much different from the one many of us once supported. Unfortunately you see that all to often these days. Teapartisans now largely own the GOP. They co-mingled with Christian religionists, who were already in the process of seizing control of the GOP, and today they are almost indistinguishable.

The present "GOP" will have little or no relevance in another 8 years. Younger voters are going to change that as more people leave the party and as the old white men fade away.

Where will most conservatives go? At present they are leaving the party and becoming independents or libertarians. Why remain in the party? Either ruling party, for that matter. It only encourages the bastards and neither party needs any more encouragement.
 

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Yeah, my local Congressional Representative, his Chief of Staff, my wife and I, had lunch a couple weeks back. It was the bi-annual donation grope. Up until this lunch, he has always been able to count on me for a donation - usually I would max out on what the law allows.

Not this year. It wasn't him that caused me to make that choice. It was his Chief of Staff. We were talking about most things you'd expect, and then the COS made the comment that burns my butt every time I hear it - you're either a Christian social conservative or you're a Liberal RINO. I stopped midsentence and just stared at him. After a few seconds, he started staring back. My wife reached over and put her hand on my arm because she knew what was getting ready happen.

We had just gotten our drinks and our salads hadn't even been served yet, but my conversation with the Congressman became a lecture from me to his COS with my wife acting like every thing was just fine and the Congressman watching and listening intently.

I don't feel like going into it right now in detail, just suffice to say, I opened with "I've been called a RINO a hell of a lot lately by people that don't have damned clue what they're talking about." And, I ended with, "If that makes me a RION, and makes my beliefs not worthy of your time or respect, then maybe I just need to not be Republican any longer." At which point, my Congressman said, "Well, on that note." and stood up. To whit I turned and looked at him and said, "I guess I shouldn't expect a call from you in two years?"

My problem, is that I have no where to go. Compared to the GOP, the Democrats are even worse Constitutionally, even less fiscally conservative (which is hard to do lately), way too damned Socialist, and too divisive on racial issues to a point that I don't see a slot within their special groups for me fit into. Blue dog Democrats are even scarce nowadays (maybe they're just hiding). I guess I'm just going to have to stay a RINO for now, but it makes me sick sometimes to see what my party has turned into.

mchenry is a 'two-bit' dick ... appears his chief of staff shares that characteristic
can't wait until his smug ass is voted out of congress
 

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Thing is, there are likely plenty of people like you, but the clowns that self-described republicans keep electing have absolutely zero record of supporting limited gov't and freedom and the like. All historical data, based on their actions, indicates the exact opposite.

So, by my reading, you agree with what he said, but the problem is that he's just mouthing platitudes and tropes with no basis in reality. He himself doesn't believe it.

Noble to believe in such things, and I mostly agree with you, but repubs and conservatives keep putting the same clowns in office, occasionally changing the window dressing, and expecting that people will actually believe their rhetoric.

The truth is, the clown gene is just as prevalent in Democrat Congressmen as it is Republicans. They all can fit into the same clown car.
 

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The GOP platform. If you don't support that you are a RINO or a liberal scum or a gay, crossdressing, Francophile who hates America and is also probably a Muslim. Sadly your options are slim to none, brother. Ain't no room for any other kind of Republican in today's GOP.

Sounds to me as if the COS and your Congressman are in fact Teapartisans. They call may themselves Republicans but in truth they are likely from a GOP much different from the one many of us once supported. Unfortunately you see that all to often these days. Teapartisans now largely own the GOP. They co-mingled with Christian religionists, who were already in the process of seizing control of the GOP, and today they are almost indistinguishable.

The present "GOP" will have little or no relevance in another 8 years. Younger voters are going to change that as more people leave the party and as the old white men fade away.

Where will most conservatives go? At present they are leaving the party and becoming independents or libertarians. Why remain in the party? Either ruling party, for that matter. It only encourages the bastards and neither party needs any more encouragement.

Based on recent Gallop polls, Independents make up ~40% of the population, Democrat and Republicans around 30% each, with the Democrats maybe having a point or two lead depending on the week the poll is taken.

To me, being a RINO is just like being an independent anyway, because the party doesn't want me and they damn sure don't care about me or my opinion.
 
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mchenry is a 'two-bit' dick ... appears his chief of staff shares that characteristic
can't wait until his smug ass is voted out of congress

I see you remember who he is. Don't think it'll happen - him getting voted out. I still kinda like McHenry, at least a little anyway, and he's been helpful at times for people I know that had problems with the government (vets mostly). His COS, on the other hand, is a dick.
 

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The truth is, the clown gene is just as prevalent in Democrat Congressmen as it is Republicans. They all can fit into the same clown car.

I didn't argue otherwise. But since the Götterdämmerung of Reagan, the Loon needle has usually pointed in the rep-con direction. Yes, dem members of the Dem Machine are a problem, but they can't hold a candle to the lunacy of the right.

No, I don't particularly like their politics, I'm not inclined to vote for them, but the batfeces nutjob insanity doesn't affect their party or rhetoric (or actions) like it does with the Louie Gohmerts, etc... of the right.

Pretty much think we see eye to eye, being a small "L" libertarian, but I tolerate no **** from the far right, and the new normal of the Republicans is far, far right.
 

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I didn't argue otherwise. But since the Götterdämmerung of Reagan, the Loon needle has usually pointed in the rep-con direction. Yes, dem members of the Dem Machine are a problem, but they can't hold a candle to the lunacy of the right.

No, I don't particularly like their politics, I'm not inclined to vote for them, but the batfeces nutjob insanity doesn't affect their party or rhetoric (or actions) like it does with the Louie Gohmerts, etc... of the right.

Pretty much think we see eye to eye, being a small "L" libertarian, but I tolerate no **** from the far right, and the new normal of the Republicans is far, far right.

You don't want to get into a dumb-off about Congressmen from both parties. I have a number of YouTube video links saved for just such an occasion. Trust me, neither side will win.
 

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Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
So where would I fit in? I'm not a hard core right wing evangelical Christian conservative, I'm decidedly non religious, but on the other hand don't embrace the idea that the 'government' whoever they are can make the best decisions for me and my neighbors. Is there no middle ground?
 

Tanngrisnir

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2016
Messages
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Location
No longer Los Angeles
Gender
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Undisclosed
You don't want to get into a dumb-off about Congressmen from both parties. I have a number of YouTube video links saved for just such an occasion. Trust me, neither side will win.

Oh, I know. I was speaking in generalities.

Lots of stupid to go around.

But that wasnt' the point.

The dumb ones will always be there.
 
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