A Must-See Episode of Glenn Beck - Faith of our Founders

[Josie]

How is it a parallel to our country? That's not what you were saying in asking someone if they read Animal Farm. Maybe you read the Cliff notes version of the book

Good Lord. I just explained it. What don't you seem to understand?

 

[PogueMoran]

Um...no I've never thought that our Founders created a nation just for Christians. They were deeply religous people and that guided their creation of the country. It's very simple, really.

No you stated they created a Christian Nation when asked. That did not guide the creation of our country any more than judaism did or paganism or hinduism. It was based on English Common Law.

 

[winston53660]

Because it can be paralleled to our country. *sigh* No, I don't mean we should be Communist. Yes, I mean that we should go back to what our Founders created instead of letting corruption, greed and power-hungry people distort and morph us into something different than how we began.

Animal Farm, isn't that the one where Karl Rove is played by a pig?

 

[PogueMoran]

Good Lord. I just explained it. What don't you seem to understand?

You made vague generalizations again. We're not pushing towards utter corruption of our government. There is no dictatorship. The opposing person wasn't pushed out of the country. Again I think you read the cliff notes version.

 

[bhkad]

His bad research leads people to falsely believe the ten commandments are posted in the lobby of the supreme court.

snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital
Mar 19, 2010 ... As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. ...
snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital - Similar

 

[PogueMoran]

snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital
Mar 19, 2010 ... As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. ...
snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital - Similar

Yeah I know I've read that and been to DC. You have blank tablets with simple numbers on them. The man who designed it wrote a letter explaining his design

The numbers represent not the ten commandments but the bill of rights.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

You know who the Founders were. Research it for yourself if you don't know their religious beliefs.

Don't make a claim if you aren't prepared to substantiate it with evidence. That's just laziness.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Um...no I've never thought that our Founders created a nation just for Christians. They were deeply religous people and that guided their creation of the country. It's very simple, really.

You keep repeating Dave Barton's talking points. The problem is...Dave Barton's talking points are wildly inaccurate.

Barton claims that 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were "orthodox" Christians and many were "evangelical Christians."

Barton does not cite any authority to support this assertion. Indeed, the weight of scholarly opinion is to the contrary. For example, Professor Clinton Rossiter has written:

"Although it had its share of strenuous Christians... the gathering at Philadelphia was largely made up of men in whom the old fires were under control or had even flickered out. Most were nominally members of one of the traditional churches in their part of the country.. and most were men who could take their religion or leave it alone. Although no one in this sober gathering would have dreamed of invoking the Goddess of Reason, neither would anyone have dared to proclaim his opinions had the support of the God of Abraham and Paul. The Convention of 1787 was highly rationalist and even secular in spirit." (Clinton Rossiter, 1787; The Grand Convention, pp. 147-148.)

Much has been made of Benjamin Franklin's suggestion that the Convention open its morning sessions with prayer. His motion was turned down, however, and not again taken up. Franklin himself noted that "with the exception of 3 or 4, most thought prayers unnecessary." (Ferrand, Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, rev. ed., Vol. 1, p.452.)

Critique of David Barton's "America's Godly Heritage"

Your posts are precisely why so many of us are disparaging of Glenn Beck. He appeals primarily to weak-minded and uninformed people who are looking for support for their own opinions and who can't be bothered to do their own research, or even to fact-check the analyses and information he and his guests present.

I"d encourage you to read this entire article, which is a reprint of an article published by the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs. It thoroughly debunks Dave Barton.

Critique of David Barton's "America's Godly Heritage"

 

[OKgrannie]

snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital
Mar 19, 2010 ... As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. ...
snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital - Similar

Clever to quote from the disproved section, and hope no one checks. This is the sort of misleading tactic that David Barton employs.

This is what Snopes has to say from your link:

The doors of the Supreme Court courtroom don't literally have the "Ten Commandments engraved on each ower portion." The lower portions of the two doors are engraved with a symbolic depiction, two tablets bearing the Roman numerals I through V and VI through X......these symbols can represent something other than the Ten Comandments.

In a letter on file in the archives of the Supreme Court, Adolph Weinman, states that the tablet visible....represents not the Ten Commandments, but the first ten amendments to the Constitution known as the "Bill of Rights."

 

[Josie]

Clever to quote from the disproved section, and hope no one checks. This is the sort of misleading tactic that David Barton employs.

This is what Snopes has to say from your link:

The doors of the Supreme Court courtroom don't literally have the "Ten Commandments engraved on each ower portion." The lower portions of the two doors are engraved with a symbolic depiction, two tablets bearing the Roman numerals I through V and VI through X......these symbols can represent something other than the Ten Comandments.

In a letter on file in the archives of the Supreme Court, Adolph Weinman, states that the tablet visible....represents not the Ten Commandments, but the first ten amendments to the Constitution known as the "Bill of Rights."

You're talking about two different areas of the building. The first is on the doors where there are two tablets with Roman numerals I through X. It's not what they "could" represent. It's about what the designer meant them to represent. Moses is also part of the design of the building.

Adolph Weinman was speaking about a different part of the building - a sculpture where a tablet is seen between two male figures.

 

[marduc]

You're talking about two different areas of the building. The first is on the doors where there are two tablets with Roman numerals I through X. It's not what they "could" represent. It's about what the designer meant them to represent. Moses is also part of the design of the building.

Confucius, and Muhammad are part of the design too, I suppose this means that the intention was to illustrate that we are a Jewish (they have a MUCH stronger claim to Moses than Christians), Confucian, Islamic nation... :roll:

 

[Josie]

Confucius, and Muhammad are part of the design too, I suppose this means that the intention was to illustrate that we are a Jewish (they have a MUCH stronger claim to Moses than Christians), Confucian, Islamic nation... :roll:

How silly. I said nothing of the kind.

 

[marduc]

How silly. I said nothing of the kind.

how silly.. I never said you did... but just as you name dropped Moses ostensibly to allude to a certain line of thought that supported your premise, I name dropped others to offer a broader view.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

She means this graphic. It's a sculpture by A.A. Weinemen called "The Majesty of the Law and the Power of Government." It's a broad diorama of the importance of law in human society, and includes representations of Hammurabi, Mohammed, and pagan "lawgivers." The context is NOT to present the 10 commandments as the basis for U.S. law, but to show the history OF LAW ITSELF in human development.


Nice try though. It's interesting. You can only find a snipped version of the graphic online that centers in on Moses and the Ten Commandments, thus utterly misrepresenting his significance in the piece (see above).

Weinman himself is most famous for his portrayals of pagan gods/goddesses, such as his striding "Liberty," and Mercury from the Mercury Dime. He was hardly a Christian sculptor.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_Alexander_Weinman[/ame]

 

[Catz Part Deux]

I actually enjoyed this article, fwiw:

Pagan America

In regards to the ten commandments and their appearance in the Supreme Court, a little context:

The Christian hullaballoo concerning the Ten Commandments and the U.S. comes mainly from the very few references to Moses and the tablets that appear on the Supreme Court building (and a few other state courthouses). Deceptively, Christians will trot out the image of Moses without the context from which the statue sits. By using this subterfuge technique, political Christians want you to believe that, somehow, Moses and the tablets on the Supreme Court building represents proof that U.S. laws derived from the Ten Commandments. Nothing could stand further from the truth.

In the first place, Moses does not sit alone on the Supreme Court Frieze. Christians don't want you to know that Moses sits next to two Pagans-- Confucius and Solon:

This sculptural frieze appears on the back of the Supreme Court Building (the east side), not the main entrance, where you would expect him to appear if the sculptor intended him to hold a special place. Moses sits next to Confucius and Solon holding two blank tablets. These fellows represent three lawgivers from the East, thus they appear on the east side of the building. Characters from the fable of the Tortoise and the Hare also appear on this frieze (go figure).

Moreover, Christians don't tell you that figures of 17 other lawgivers appear on the Supreme Court building. Notorious pagans such as Hammurabi, Menes, Lycurgus, Draco, Augustus, and Justinian also appear among the lawgivers. Even Mohammed holding the Koran appears on the building! (Can you imagine the uproar that would occur if U.S. Muslims declared that Constitutional law derived from Allah and the Holy Koran?) Friezes appear on all four sides of the building and on the inside. The Moses statue appears no larger than any of the other lawgivers. According to the Curator's office, Weinman designed for the Courtroom friezes, a procession of "great lawgivers of history," from many civilizations, to portray the development of secular law. (bold characters, mine).

 

[PogueMoran]

You're talking about two different areas of the building. The first is on the doors where there are two tablets with Roman numerals I through X. It's not what they "could" represent. It's about what the designer meant them to represent. Moses is also part of the design of the building.

Adolph Weinman was speaking about a different part of the building - a sculpture where a tablet is seen between two male figures.

Like i said ive been to DC. The other instance of moses with tablets show blank tablets and is apart of a larger piece with other lawmakers ranging from Humarabbi to Lord Blackstone Nowhere are the actual ten commandments displayed. The designer said what they meant. Even so notice Jesus isnt included. If anything this would be proof we're a jewish nation not christian.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Like i said ive been to DC. The other instance of moses with tablets show blank tablets and is apart of a larger piece with other lawmakers ranging from Humarabbi to Lord Blackstone Nowhere are the actual ten commandments displayed. The designer said what they meant. Even so notice Jesus isnt included. If anything this would be proof we're a jewish nation not christian.

We're really a pagan nation. If you go to DC and spend any time there at all looking at the symbolism of the buildings and the statues, you'll become convinced of this fact.

 

[winston53660]

We're really a pagan nation. If you go to DC and spend any time there at all looking at the symbolism of the buildings and the statues, you'll become convinced of this fact.

Also our form of government is based on Rome with Senators and all.

 

[PogueMoran]

We're really a pagan nation. If you go to DC and spend any time there at all looking at the symbolism of the buildings and the statues, you'll become convinced of this fact.

indeed and thats where the christian nation argument becomes absurd

 

[Mach]

That's where Beck believers show their blind spot.

If we're going to learn about the faith of the founders of the U.S., why would we turn to a purely entertainment program which is what Becks' industry, stated by Beck, is....instead of some credible history readings of it?

Liking Beck is never the issue.
Beck being talented is not the issue.
Beck being wildly successful at gathering a following of believers, not an issue.
His obvious partisanship, is not an issue.
His saying and doing the things he does for ratings (not accuracy, or public service, or journalism, or for integrity, etc.), not an issue.

The only issue there ever has been is his intentionally, knowingly, using entertainment in such a way that everyone knows will lull viewers believing it's giving them good information about important political and economic topics. Viewer beware, sure, he's not breaking laws, but ethics are still ethics.

The obviously dirty old man that plays at lifeguarding a public kids pool may be doing nothing legally wrong, and may in fact be lifeguarding, but it's still not something you'd except a cult following in support of, considering its questionable motives and ethics.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind"

"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

"The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

Whatever the founders believed, they certainly didn't want religion to have too much influence on the government, and vice versa.

 

[Degreez]

No such thing as 'Must-See' and 'Glenn Beck'.

 

[OKgrannie]

You're talking about two different areas of the building. The first is on the doors where there are two tablets with Roman numerals I through X. It's not what they "could" represent. It's about what the designer meant them to represent. Moses is also part of the design of the building.

Adolph Weinman was speaking about a different part of the building - a sculpture where a tablet is seen between two male figures.

Weinman said what the tablet between two male figures represents. No one has said what the other symbol means. It "could" also represent the BofR. The Ten Commandments are not listed, only numbers.

 

[UtahBill]

No such thing as 'Must-See' and 'Glenn Beck'.

oxy-moron, with emphasis on moron...:2razz: