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A Must-See Episode of Glenn Beck - Faith of our Founders

molten_dragon

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Democracy is the direct rule of the people. We don't have that. But keep misrepresenting it if you wish.
What am I misrepresenting? I said I was wrong didn't I? I just don't care about it enough to change.
 

Catz Part Deux

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The question was if everything was sourced. Having the original documents sounds like good sourcing to me. But, yes, you're correct. Interpretations can be different. Much like people cite a few Thomas Jefferson letters out of thousands to say he was a Deist (and then they somehow claim that means anti-religion which never made any sense to me.)

What bothers me is people that refuse....REFUSE....to believe that our Founders were deeply religious. I haven't really seen that much on this site, but I have on others.
They were certainly not evangelicals, nor did they support any sort of theocracy. Bear in mind, they had direct experience with theocracy because of their dealings with Britain. The Kind of England is also the head of the Church of England. Religion and government were one and the same. Our founding fathers were determined to avoid that scenario.

Furthermore, anyone who doesn't think Jefferson was a deist has done a very selective job of reading his writings. He created his own deistic version of the new testament, FFS.
 
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Josie

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I never said they were evangelicals or proponents of a theocracy.
 

Catz Part Deux

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I never said they were evangelicals or proponents of a theocracy.
Also, "deeply" religious is highly questionable. They lived in a society and during an era where it was virtually required that they be regular church attenders, and that they express belief in God. They'd have been personally and politically ruined if they had not subscribed to these cultural norms (see Thomas Paine for a good example of how atheists were treated in 1790). What their personal beliefs were, we will likely never know.

For sure, none of them came from any variant of evangelicalism, which wasn't prevalent at the time. They were predominantly calvinists.

It's the same today, really. Barak Obama is a regular church attender and regularly expresses belief in God. Do you believe he's "deeply religious"?
 
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Josie

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All you have to do is read their speeches and letters to know they were deeply religious. Don't try to rewrite history by saying "Well, they HAD to be for political reasons." Good gravy!

Obama isn't a regular church attender. At least, I haven't heard which church he is now attending. No, I don't think he is deeply religious.
 

Catz Part Deux

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All you have to do is read their speeches and letters to know they were deeply religious. Don't try to rewrite history by saying "Well, they HAD to be for political reasons." Good gravy!
I've read their speeches and letters, and if read as a whole and not selectively, they don't represent people who subscribe to an evangelical perspective. They were religious. They conformed to social norms. But, it's questionable how many of them were deeply religious.

Obama isn't a regular church attender. At least, I haven't heard which church he is now attending. No, I don't think he is deeply religious.
Really? He invited 90 Christian leaders to "reflect with him" on the meaning of Easter last week.

Did you consider George W Bush religious? He rarely attended church while in the White House. Reagan almost never did, either, nor did Bush Senior.

Politico article on Obama's recent church attendance ignored Bush's sporadic attendance as president | Media Matters for America
 
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Josie

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No. That's what Dave Barton says. In the show you want us to watch so badly. :roll: And, in his books.
I don't see where he said the Founders wanted or created a theocracy.
 

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Dave Barton money quote, from Focus on the Family appearance, May 2, 1996:

[Jefferson's "wall between church and state"] "means the government will not run the church, but we will still use Christian principles with government."

That is theocracy. His message has not changed.
 
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Josie

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Really? He invited 90 Christian leaders to "reflect with him" on the meaning of Easter last week.
And? He rarely mentions God or religion at all. Our Founders did constantly. You said he attends church regularly. He doesn't. Why lie?

Did you consider George W Bush religious? He rarely attended church while in the White House. Reagan almost never did, either, nor did Bush Senior.
No, I don't consider anyone that doesn't attend some kind of meeting with saints regularly to be deeply religious. Anyone who writes, thinks, speaks consistently about God and other spiritual ideas is deeply religious in my book.
 

Redress

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Josie

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No, he says that they created and wanted "A Christian Nation." Repeatedly.
They did. They didn't, however, want the GOVERNMENT to regulate religion. They wanted religion our of the federal government (many states had their own religion, ya know) and federal government out of religion.
 

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And? He rarely mentions God or religion at all. Our Founders did constantly. You said he attends church regularly. He doesn't. Why lie?
He does attend church regularly, at St. John's Episcopal Church, across the street from the White House, where George W. Bush also attended, when he attended.

No, I don't consider anyone that doesn't attend some kind of meeting with saints regularly to be deeply religious. Anyone who writes, thinks, speaks consistently about God and other spiritual ideas is deeply religious in my book.
Is regular church attendance required for deep religion? If so, George W. Bush fails your litmus test.
 

Catz Part Deux

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They did. They didn't, however, want the GOVERNMENT to regulate religion. They wanted religion our of the federal government (many states had their own religion, ya know) and federal government out of religion.
And they are. That's the system we currently have. You, and Beck, and Barton want to infuse religious values back into the system. :roll: Please stop being disingenuous.
 

Josie

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Dave Barton money quote, from Focus on the Family appearance, May 2, 1996:

[Jefferson's "wall between church and state"] "means the government will not run the church, but we will still use Christian principles with government."

That is theocracy. His message has not changed.
Christian principles WERE used to create and govern. Good gravy! What Founders documents are you reading where they DON'T mention God or scriptures?
 

Josie

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And they are. That's the system we currently have. You, and Beck, and Barton want to infuse religious values back into the system. :roll: Please stop being disingenuous.
OMG! Religious values back into our system! How horrible! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!

Interesting how you say "back into the system". So you agree that our Founders used religious values to govern. At least that's something.
 

Josie

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He does attend church regularly, at St. John's Episcopal Church, across the street from the White House, where George W. Bush also attended, when he attended.



Is regular church attendance required for deep religion? If so, George W. Bush fails your litmus test.
Oh he does? And what is your source that he "attends regularly" or is even a member?

Why do you keep bringing up Bush? I've never viewed him as deeply religious. I can't think of any modern President I would consider to be deeply religious. Can you?
 

Catz Part Deux

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Christian principles WERE used to create and govern. Good gravy! What Founders documents are you reading where they DON'T mention God or scriptures?
If these scriptures were so foundational, why aren't they mentioned in the constitution or declaration of independence? Why doesn't our constitution match the 10 commandments?
 

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OMG! Religious values back into our system! How horrible! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!

Interesting how you say "back into the system". So you agree that our Founders used religious values to govern. At least that's something.
I was referring to the religious control of specific states, as existed during the time when Jefferson wrote the letter to the Danbury Baptists. You want to recreate what the founding fathers attempted to protect against.
 

Catz Part Deux

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They did. They didn't, however, want the GOVERNMENT to regulate religion. They wanted religion our of the federal government (many states had their own religion, ya know) and federal government out of religion.
So, you don't want a theocracy, but you do want our head of state serving as a religious leader, making constant religious proclamations and setting our policy in that way...

Interesting.

Here's what I want...

Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason.

I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all . . .

Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences.

To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing."
Can you see the truth in the above?
 

Josie

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I was referring to the religious control of specific states, as existed during the time when Jefferson wrote the letter to the Danbury Baptists. You want to recreate what the founding fathers attempted to protect against.
Let's try this again. The Founders created the Constitution to protect the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from controlling religion or establishing a national religion. The states could do their own thing, but the Federal Government was prohibited.
 

Redress

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Let's try this again. The Founders created the Constitution to protect the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from controlling religion or establishing a national religion. The states could do their own thing, but the Federal Government was prohibited.
So the states can set up their own state religion?
 

Josie

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if these scriptures were so foundational, why aren't they mentioned in the constitution or declaration of independence? Why doesn't our constitution match the 10 commandments?
**siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*
 

Josie

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So the states can set up their own state religion?
They used to be able to. It wouldn't be possible now because the Supreme Court would knock it down. I wouldn't be opposed to going back to that. If, for instance, my state wanted to establish a Catholic state, I'd move since I disagree with Catholics on almost everything.

It would never work now because the federal government has evolved into being the be-all-end-all instead of the other way around. The states are SUPPOSED to have more authority than the federal government.
 
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