A Must-See Episode of Glenn Beck - Faith of our Founders

[Josie]

Bestseller list does not equal vetted research. :roll:

Do you even know what the books are? Jeez louise. Knee-jerk reaction much?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

David Barton is the Founder and President of WallBuilders, a national pro-family organization that presents America's forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on our moral, religious and constitutional heritage.

WallBuilders is a name taken from the Old Testament writings of Nehemiah, who led a grassroots movement to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem and restore its strength and honor. In the same way, WallBuilders seeks to energize the grassroots today to become involved in strengthening their communities, states, and nation.

David is the author of numerous best-selling books, with the subjects being drawn largely from his massive library of tens of thousands of original writings from the Founding Era. He also addresses well over 400 groups each year.

His exhaustive research has rendered him an expert in historical and constitutional issues and he serves as a consultant to state and federal legislators, has participated in several cases at the Supreme Court, was involved in the development of the History/Social Studies standards for states such as Texas and California, and has helped produce history textbooks now used in schools across the nation.

David was named by Time magazine as one of America's 25 most influential evangelicals, and he has received numerous national and international awards, including Who's Who in Education and DAR's highest award, the George Washington Honor Medal. His work in media has merited several Angel Awards, Telly Awards, and the Dove Foundation Seal of Approval.

David and his wife Cheryl have three grown children, Damaris, Timothy, and Stephen, and reside in Aledo, TX.

Well, at least we can rest assured that author David Barton doesn't have an agenda.

 

[Josie]

Again, I'll wait for your critique. I'm sure it will be swimming with maturity and intelligent opinions.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Wow. There's an awful lot online about author David Barton...

Described as a "Christian historical revisionist," Barton is attributed with not only authoring the following quotes which "the culture warriors of the Religious Right never tire of repeating ... ad infinitum and ad nauseam, ..." [2]

"The United States of America are a Christian Nation."

"The founding fathers were evangelical Christians."

"Church-state separation is a liberal myth."

but is also credited with making up supporting quotes, "such as the following one that is completely bogus, but still circulating in Christian Right circles."
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." --fictional quote attributed to James Madison.

David Barton - SourceWatch

propagandist David Barton has issued a statement conceding that the following twelve quotations attributed to prominent historical figures are either false or at best questionable. WallBuilders' observations about the quotes are in parenthesis.

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!
-- Patrick Henry (questionable)

It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
-- George Washington (questionable)

Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian.
-- Holy Trinity v. U.S. [Supreme Court] (false)

We have staked the whole future of American civilization, nor upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God.
-- James Madison (false)

Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world.
-- Benjamin Franklin (questionable)

The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer.
-- Noah Webster (questionable)

There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet.
-- Noah Webster (questionable)

The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion.
-- Abe Lincoln (questionable)

The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next.
-- Abe Lincoln (questionable)

A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader.
-- Samuel Adams (questionable)
[this can be found in Harry Alonzo Cushing, ed., The Writings of Samuel Adams (1908), Vol. 4, p. 124 -- Cliff Walker, May 1, 2002]

I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens.
-- Thomas Jefferson (questionable)

America is great because she is good. and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.
-- Alexis de Toqueville, Democracy in America (definitely not in the book; perhaps in other more obscure writings; questionable)

What? An author who appeared on the Glen Beck show MADE UP A FICTIONAL QUOTE BY JAMES MADISON and other founding fathers in order to bolster his case? I'm shocked and appalled.

But not surprised.

Here's a little light reading for you, Mellie.

From Christian Ethics Today - An Expose on David Barton's Misinformation Campaign Wallbuilders or Mythbuilders By Nicholas P Miller - 003 p 17

Christianity's role in history of U.S. at issue

Key quote:

Those ideas resonate with many Christians, history and religion professors say, but they concern many others.

"I'm an evangelical Christian, and I think David Barton and Peter Marshall are completely out to lunch," said John Fea, a history professor at Messiah College in Pennsylvania, a Christian institution. "They are not experts on social studies and history. Neither of them are trained in history. They are preachers who use the past and history as a means of promoting a political agenda in the present."

Having David Barton lecture on the religious views of the founding fathers is a lot like having a botanist offer commentary on evolution of mammals.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Again, I'll wait for your critique. I'm sure it will be swimming with maturity and intelligent opinions.

Yeah, I saw enough in the first five minutes to convince me that it would be the same standard Glen Beck propaganda. A little research into his special guest (and his books) showed that my assessment was accurate. Interestingly enough, your OP parrots Glen Beck's advertisement for his April 8 show. LULZ.

If I want to learn about history, I'll read historically accurate works by people who don't misquote or create new quotes from the founding fathers to bolster their case.

 

[Josie]

Yes, I figured you would respond as much. I'm curious as to how you know your little website is right. I'm sure in your 15 minutes of googling you were just looking for something against this man so you could continue your little insult parade. Give me proof of everything on that site (from your OWN research of those quotes) and we'll talk. I'll give you a day or two to get that all done since it will take awhile. Happy researching. I'm off to read The Real Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Yes, I figured you would respond as much. I'm curious as to how you know your little website is right. I'm sure in your 15 minutes of googling you were just looking for something against this man so you could continue your little insult parade. Give me proof of everything on that site (from your OWN research of those quotes) and we'll talk. I'll give you a day or two to get that all done since it will take awhile. Happy researching. I'm off to read The Real Thomas Jefferson.

The rigor of your scholastic choices is an example to us all.

 

[Fiddytree]

That's exactly what Beck says too. Interesting.

This show is also based on original writings of the Founders. I'm not sure why you wouldn't check it out for yourself.

Because he promotes some incredibly strange notion of history. He is consumed with this notion of finding the answer to history. He came to the conclusion that somehow progressivism is the root of all evil, yet ironically has no conception that progressives from one point or another actually agreed with his specific examples in history as bad. Wilson is his favorite target, but doesn't he realize that progressive intellectuals actually would agree that the United States need not have entered World War I, that they not be so concerned with progressing humanity in international affairs? Of course not, because Beck has no roots in intellectual history, but his show loves to dramatize the current political environment to sell his image.

His show ignores the complexity of history.

 

[Fiddytree]

Actually, those things aren't portrayed as anything but mindless entertainment, but some people actually have the sad and mistaken impression that Glen Beck is a journalist.

If you want to learn about the faith of the America founding fathers, I'd love to recommend the following, which contain actual scholarship and depth:

David McCullough's excellent book, John Adams

Ken Burns' excellent documentary, Thomas Jefferson (online at Thomas Jefferson Online)

Jared Stewart's The Life of Gouverneur Morris (7 chapters online here: The Life of Gouverneur Morris, by Jared Sparks, Page 1 | Colonial Hall)

Joseph Ellis's Founding Brothers and His Excellency: George Washington

Walter Isaacson's Benjamin Franklin: An American Life

Walter Stahr's John Jay: Founding Father

Ron Chernow's Alexander Hamilton

My experience, however, is that the average Glen Beck fan isn't interested in learning anything at all, but rather, in having existing paradigms reinforced.

And the fun thing is that many of us do not enjoy popular historians because they do not speak to those of us who are interested in the sources and that dialog between historians. Yet at the same time, we respect their writing style and ability to gain the average citizen to respect history. I, actually, quite easily admit I got bored and fell asleep to reading McCullough's writing (as well as thought some of the perspective amusing and quite modern), because it was so well written. I need those incredibly large amount of footnotes and discussions of historiography.

 

[Fiddytree]

That's exactly what Beck says too. Interesting.

This show is also based on original writings of the Founders. I'm not sure why you wouldn't check it out for yourself.

I watch his show regularly enough (multiple times a week). Fox News gets far more air time in my place than anything else I view, particularly because it pleases those who I live with. I use it for background noise while I am writing.

My point is why bother listening to Beck in the first place if he truly says go to the source? Spend that time reading books, go to a seminar with historians debating the various issues, discover the models used by secondary commentators as to why they interpret American history in such a way, etc. Why bother listening to his inane rambling when we can go straight to more qualified sources, even the primary documents themselves?

Glenn Beck provides absolutely nothing of substance except some incredibly strange idea that he has somehow solved the riddle of history, when he hasn't. Most of the time, he has hardly engaged in a discussion at all.

Is it really that hard to pick up a copy of the Federalist papers, read Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Thoreau, Thomas Paine, Lincoln, Tocqueville, Machiavelli, Marx, Plato, Aristotle, Locke, Booker T. Washington, and so forth? No, but somehow Beck needs to be seen before these readings to put it all into perspective, right? Why? Who gives a darn what Beck thinks about the founders if all he brings on board for intellectual support is more authors rambling about "how to take the country back" who are usually not even Demographers?

 

[DarkWizard12]

What is incorrect about beck's show, aired april 8th, 2010? what was incorrect?

 

[Degreez]

Yes, I figured you would respond as much. I'm curious as to how you know your little website is right. I'm sure in your 15 minutes of googling you were just looking for something against this man so you could continue your little insult parade. Give me proof of everything on that site (from your OWN research of those quotes) and we'll talk. I'll give you a day or two to get that all done since it will take awhile. Happy researching. I'm off to read The Real Thomas Jefferson.

And what makes you so sure Beck's program was 100% factual? Was everything sourced, like you're asking here? No.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Because he promotes some incredibly strange notion of history. He is consumed with this notion of finding the answer to history. He came to the conclusion that somehow progressivism is the root of all evil, yet ironically has no conception that progressives from one point or another actually agreed with his specific examples in history as bad. Wilson is his favorite target, but doesn't he realize that progressive intellectuals actually would agree that the United States need not have entered World War I, that they not be so concerned with progressing humanity in international affairs? Of course not, because Beck has no roots in intellectual history, but his show loves to dramatize the current political environment to sell his image.

His show ignores the complexity of history.

The leading progressive of the Wilson era, Robert LaFollette was staunchly against WWI and very opposed to Wilson. It's difficult to understand why Beck would rail against both, when progressivism and Wilson were in opposition. Unless Beck has no idea what progressivism actually is.

 

[molten_dragon]

Ahhhh okay. Don't watch the man who has the largest collection of original early American documents in the world discuss the faith of our Founders. This show is like a history class. I challenge anyone to watch it and tell me what is untrue.

Gosh, ya might even learn something you didn't know. Or you could remain clueless and afraid to challenge your thinking. *shrug*

I watched about half of it and I'll say this. I don't think any of what was said on there was factually inaccurate, I think it was simply irrelevant. Our country is a democracy, and as such, the opinions of the people alive today in America are what matter, not those of people who have been dead for 200 years or more. What the founding fathers intended when they wrote the constitution is irrelevant. All that matters is what was written, and it's up to us to interpret it as we choose.

 

[Josie]

I watched about half of it and I'll say this. I don't think any of what was said on there was factually inaccurate, I think it was simply irrelevant. Our country is a democracy, and as such, the opinions of the people alive today in America are what matter, not those of people who have been dead for 200 years or more. What the founding fathers intended when they wrote the constitution is irrelevant. All that matters is what was written, and it's up to us to interpret it as we choose.

Totally disagree with everything you said including that we're a democracy. We're a republic.

 

[Josie]

And what makes you so sure Beck's program was 100% factual? Was everything sourced, like you're asking here? No.

They had all the original documents they were discussing right there on set.

 

[Josie]

I watched about half of it and I'll say this. I don't think any of what was said on there was factually inaccurate, I think it was simply irrelevant. Our country is a democracy, and as such, the opinions of the people alive today in America are what matter, not those of people who have been dead for 200 years or more. What the founding fathers intended when they wrote the constitution is irrelevant. All that matters is what was written, and it's up to us to interpret it as we choose.

Have you ever read Animal Farm? Just curious...

 

[molten_dragon]

Totally disagree with everything you said

Care to expound on why you think the founding fathers' opinions/intent are so relevant to running our country today?

including that we're a democracy. We're a republic.

You've got me here, I tend to use the terms interchangeably.

Have you ever read Animal Farm? Just curious...

Yes, though it's been quite a few years. What's your point?

 

[Josie]

Care to expound on why you think the founding fathers' opinions/intent are so relevant to running our country today?

Read Animal Farm again. The Founders set a foundation for our country that worked. Our Constitution was created to limit federal government and we've completely thrown it out the window. Instead of small government with most of the power with each individual state, now it's ginormous government with very little power to the individual states. Now we have debt up to our ears, corruption everywhere, less freedom, more taxes, frivolous spending....

Tell me what was wrong with what our Founders set up? (And let's hope your only answer isn't "slavery" because most of them were vehemently against that too). Why change it so dramatically?

You've got me here, I tend to use the terms interchangeably.

But they are different. You shouldn't be using them interchangeably.

 

[UtahBill]

They had all the original documents they were discussing right there on set.

Millions of Americans have a bible in their homes, you would think that all would be the same Christian religion. But we are not.
Interpretation is the problem. Those who want to dwell on certain parts of the bible and ignore the rest will do so.
Same with history books...

 

[Josie]

Millions of Americans have a bible in their homes, you would think that all would be the same Christian religion. But we are not.
Interpretation is the problem. Those who want to dwell on certain parts of the bible and ignore the rest will do so.
Same with history books...

The question was if everything was sourced. Having the original documents sounds like good sourcing to me. But, yes, you're correct. Interpretations can be different. Much like people cite a few Thomas Jefferson letters out of thousands to say he was a Deist (and then they somehow claim that means anti-religion which never made any sense to me.)

What bothers me is people that refuse....REFUSE....to believe that our Founders were deeply religious. I haven't really seen that much on this site, but I have on others.

 

[UtahBill]

The question was if everything was sourced. Having the original documents sounds like good sourcing to me. But, yes, you're correct. Interpretations can be different. Much like people cite a few Thomas Jefferson letters out of thousands to say he was a Deist (and then they somehow claim that means anti-religion which never made any sense to me.)

What bothers me is people that refuse....REFUSE....to believe that our Founders were deeply religious. I haven't really seen that much on this site, but I have on others.

Religious, yes, but fanatics, no. They knew what can happen if churches get too much control over govt. All they had to do was look at Europe to see the hazards of too many cooks spoiling the broth...

 

[molten_dragon]

Read Animal Farm again. The Founders set a foundation for our country that worked.

They also gave us a way to change that foundation when it no longer worked. If they never intended us to make any changes, why give us the ability to change it at all?

Our Constitution was created to limit federal government and we've completely thrown it out the window.

Meaningless hyperbole. Yes, we interpret the constitution a little more liberally than you'd prefer, but that doesn't mean we've 'thrown it out the window'

Instead of small government with most of the power with each individual state, now it's ginormous government with very little power to the individual states.

Which is a problem why (power shifting to the federal government rather than the states, not necessarily the size of the government, I can agree that it's somewhat bloated)? Our country is a different place than it was when it was created. States don't mean as much now as they used to, and that's a good thing. We're a far more 'national' society. We look at ourselves as a country, rather than a collective of near-autonomous states. That's not a bad thing.

Now we have debt up to our ears, corruption everywhere, less freedom, more taxes, frivolous spending....

I fail to see how this is relevant to the debate. This isn't a problem limited to the federal government. We'd still have these problems in the kind of government you're a proponent of.

Tell me what was wrong with what our Founders set up? (And let's hope your only answer isn't "slavery" because most of them were vehemently against that too). Why change it so dramatically?

You know what, you're right. The government that the founding fathers set up was absolutely perfect, that's why our constitution hasn't been changed at all in the last 223 years.

Oh wait...

But they are different. You shouldn't be using them interchangeably.

You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to.

 

[Josie]

They also gave us a way to change that foundation when it no longer worked. If they never intended us to make any changes, why give us the ability to change it at all?

The foundation is still there. It doesn't change, but it's being ignored. Amendments weren't meant to change our country into something that looks like what the Founders were fleeing.

You know what, you're right. The government that the founding fathers set up was absolutely perfect, that's why our constitution hasn't been changed at all in the last 223 years.

Oh wait...

I never said it was perfect. It worked. We were a prosperous nation for many, many years. Now look at us.

 

[Josie]

Democracy is the direct rule of the people. We don't have that. But keep misrepresenting it if you wish.