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A Medical provider: To my republican friends. Screw you. To my democrat friends.. screw you too

The problem is the huge and erroneous assumption that a single payer system is is going to save money through less administration.

The insurances that are the most difficult to deal with..that cost the most for my facilities to handle... are GOVERNMENT insurances.. notably Medicaid and VA.. with Medicare coming in there (there are a couple of "Obamacare insurances) that are worse than medicare when it comes to cost to bill etc.

So when you tell me going to a government system that already costs me the most.. is going to save money? Don't believe you.



The govt system is less costly than is the private system. The experience of those countries moving from totally private insurance market to UH is that admin costs go down when centralized by the govt. Why is it you think America can't do as well as those countries with UH?
 
Could you provide some evidence for that claim?
Can I provide evidence to document that private insurance enjoys the highest profit margins (and administrative costs, btw) in the health care industry? Absolutely.

I'll post some for you if you answer my question, below, fully.

It's not a "direct comparison" because medicare isn't an insurance company, it's a welfare state program.
:lamo
STUPID comment!

Medicare ABSOLUTELY is a (by definition and practice) a FEDERAL health insurance programs. That is ALL Medicare is, in fact.

When extremists like you refer to Medicare with ideological labels like "welfare state program"...you only discredit yourselves.

And if the American people are better off replacing private healthcare companies with a welfare state program, then they will also be better off replacing auto and homeowner insurance companies with government programs as well.
:lamo Just like a righty to equate material possessions to human life.

Hospitals are providers, and they are filled with workers who make way above their true market rates. Physicians and hospitals are the problem. They are ass-raping the American public - just ask anyone who has had to pay cash at a US hospital.
Ignorant comments. You seem to be a bit of an irrational ideologue whose brain is filled with talking points that you've never been challenged to back up. Can you provide evidence to back them up?
  • --Who are these "workers" who "make way above their true market rates"?
  • --Do you have ANY idea what the "true market rates" are?
  • --Do you know that in FACT, physicians employed directly by hospitals make, on average, LESS than those who maintain private practices?


Of course, you can't answer any of the above questions because you're just repeating the empty-headed talking points of the various alt-right message boards from whence you came.

Hospitals and doctors are actually distinct (and often competing) entities within most of the health care industry.
 
So yous guys don't do it because you took a Hippocratic oath?

Again, Jaeger never took the Hippocratic Oath.

He's a medical supplies/device salesman who likes to call himself a "health care provider".

He's not a physician. He's not a nurse. He's not even a therapist.

That said, his OP was largely on-point and commendable.
 
As a medical provider I have to vent a little bit during my "break". I have family and friends in healthcare that are risking their lives and their families lives helping YOU. (democrat and republican).
And I hear all about how you "appreciate us".

Well... to my republican friends? Remember how you lambasted Obamacare.. and lambasted the expansion of Medicaid, and "government take over of healthcare". Well imagine the crisis without the millions and millions of people that got healthcare insurance under Obamacare. Sheesh.

And to my democrat friends.. who a month ago were telling me that I made too much money.. that doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists made to much.. that we were greedy? Well.. some of those "greedy" folks are working themselves to the bone..and even dying for you. While in many places they are getting cuts in pay while they work even more hours.

And to both the democrats and republicans who complained about the "cost of healthcare". Who complained that "its shouldn't cost so much when I go to the hospital especially for my finger to get sewn up in the emergency room?

Remember when I told you that you were not just paying for your finger to be sewn up.. but were also paying for those ventilators the hospital has and all the other equipment and staff they have in case you get really sick? Well you are seeing that now.

There is no free lunch here folks.

Now.. stay home.. and stay healthy..

God bless.


I can't afford an $800 per month health care premium, so I go without thanks to ObamaCare skyrocketing the costs of insurance. I paid that premium for two years, then had to use the insurance one time, and they did not pay one single dime...so, I was like, what the heck am I paying this much money for nothing, anyways and dropped it.

Not looking for a free lunch, but am not going to be ripped off, either. I guess healthcare premiums will go even further up after all of this is over....jeesh, just what we need!
 
His post is not total nonsense, yours is.
:lamo
Sorry, but the opinions of anti-intellectual rightwing ideologues don't count. Let me know when you two earn your M.D.'s (or D.O.'s), ok?

Until then....:peace

Healthcare around the world does in fact have less facilities, less doctors, less pretty much everything.
Nowhere in my previous remarks have I stated, nor even suggested, ANYTHING related to the above. But, for the record, the best healthcare models in the world are those of France and Italy, which effectively combine universal health insurance with strong, thriving private supplemental insurance industries. The U.S. ranks in the 30's for overall healthcare results, primarily because of access and cost issues NOT because of the equipment, technology or the quality of medical care from health professionals.

Nurses do much of what doctors do in the US.
Nurse practitioners and physician assistants (P.A.'s) do, in some models (like the U.K.'s model, for example). And to be clear, in places like the U.K., nurses don't to "much" of what doctors do ANYWHERE, they are empowered to do SOME of the more basic task previously handled only by M.D.'s. There are pluses and minuses to this approach, obviously.

People in other countries have to travel more to get to their providers. There are long wait times not only for appointments but also while in office. Other countries don't even have access to much of the newer meds just out on the market, you know, the ones which cost a whole lot more.

This is all mostly nonsense. In most western countries, this is nonsense. In REALITY, every other western country approves access to the latest medications MUCH QUICKER than the U.S. The U.S. is LAST in the world in terms of length of time for approval of new meds and technologies. And guess what....this is actually a VERY GOOD THING!. At least, in most cases it is.

So, again, your arguments are little more than conservative recitations of myths, lies and stereotypes. It's obvious that you don't post any credible links or references for your arguments, because none exist.
 
Is the idea that medical providers are paid too much money a Democratic theme? Because that's a new one to me.

Shhh shhh. Just let the nice conservative tell us what we think.

(And "us" is being generous, since I'm not a Democrat...I just happen to average out on the left)
 
Again, Jaeger never took the Hippocratic Oath.

He's a medical supplies/device salesman who likes to call himself a "health care provider".

He's not a physician. He's not a nurse. He's not even a therapist.

That said, his OP was largely on-point and commendable.

Huzzah!
 
After grinding through this entire thread, an ancient, tired, and well worn comment comes to mind: If the USA has such a great system, why is no other country in the world taking our lead and abolishing UHC in any of its varied forms to incorporate a for-profit, insurance based system? Even more telling is why have American based insurance companies been unable to convince any other country into letting them take over their payment services? Because they can't offer a better deal than what's already a better deal.
 
And to my democrat friends.. who a month ago were telling me that I made too much money.. that doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists made to much.. that we were greedy? Well.. some of those "greedy" folks are working themselves to the bone..and even dying for you. While in many places they are getting cuts in pay while they work even more hours.

I don't recall any Democrats saying that you made too much money.



Again, Jaeger never took the Hippocratic Oath.

He's a medical supplies/device salesman who likes to call himself a "health care provider".

He's not a physician. He's not a nurse. He's not even a therapist.

That said, his OP was largely on-point and commendable.

Seriously ?

FFS, that's pretty much stolen valor.
 
The govt system is less costly than is the private system. The experience of those countries moving from totally private insurance market to UH is that admin costs go down when centralized by the govt. Why is it you think America can't do as well as those countries with UH?

I'm not so sure that is true but, for the sake of argument, if the government system is less costly it is because they stiff providers on payments. It is a well known fact that most providers lose money on Medicare/Medicaid patients and make it up through private insurance reimbursements. Some providers refuse to even see patients on government programs. If you went to MFA the system could not sustain itself.
 
I can't afford an $800 per month health care premium, so I go without thanks to ObamaCare skyrocketing the costs of insurance. I paid that premium for two years, then had to use the insurance one time, and they did not pay one single dime...so, I was like, what the heck am I paying this much money for nothing, anyways and dropped it.

Not looking for a free lunch, but am not going to be ripped off, either. I guess healthcare premiums will go even further up after all of this is over....jeesh, just what we need!

Exactly what happened to me. I have two pre-existing conditions and the moment Obamacare took over my health care costs soared much higher than they were before. After two years I strongly considered just going without because as long as nothing really bad happened, the cost would be much cheaper just paying the providers out of my pocket than having Obamacare. In the end, my stay at home wife decided to go out and get a job with insurance. I own my own business but still couldn't afford healthcare, even for myself.
 
:lamo
Sorry, but the opinions of anti-intellectual rightwing ideologues don't count. Let me know when you two earn your M.D.'s (or D.O.'s), ok?

Until then....:peace


Nowhere in my previous remarks have I stated, nor even suggested, ANYTHING related to the above. But, for the record, the best healthcare models in the world are those of France and Italy, which effectively combine universal health insurance with strong, thriving private supplemental insurance industries. The U.S. ranks in the 30's for overall healthcare results, primarily because of access and cost issues NOT because of the equipment, technology or the quality of medical care from health professionals.


Nurse practitioners and physician assistants (P.A.'s) do, in some models (like the U.K.'s model, for example). And to be clear, in places like the U.K., nurses don't to "much" of what doctors do ANYWHERE, they are empowered to do SOME of the more basic task previously handled only by M.D.'s. There are pluses and minuses to this approach, obviously.



This is all mostly nonsense. In most western countries, this is nonsense. In REALITY, every other western country approves access to the latest medications MUCH QUICKER than the U.S. The U.S. is LAST in the world in terms of length of time for approval of new meds and technologies. And guess what....this is actually a VERY GOOD THING!. At least, in most cases it is.

So, again, your arguments are little more than conservative recitations of myths, lies and stereotypes. It's obvious that you don't post any credible links or references for your arguments, because none exist.

His post is not total nonsense, yours is.
 
After grinding through this entire thread, an ancient, tired, and well worn comment comes to mind: If the USA has such a great system, why is no other country in the world taking our lead and abolishing UHC in any of its varied forms to incorporate a for-profit, insurance based system? Even more telling is why have American based insurance companies been unable to convince any other country into letting them take over their payment services? Because they can't offer a better deal than what's already a better deal.

Those countries are much, much smaller than us and pretty much started down this path to begin with. We didn't. So, to completely destroy and reshape our health care system of the largest economy in the world after the fact would cause much havoc. Having said that, I have two pre-existing conditions and have communicated with thousands of people all over the world and I wouldn't want any of their systems. Yes, they are basically free with pretty much no financial worries and they like that but, having heard their stories, I wouldn't want what they have. As a matter of fact, we are seeing first hand right now how the US healthcare system is much better than other countries'. We have one of the lower death rates of this pandemic. Anyone who would want the system of Italy, Spain, France, or the UK is just downright stupid.

US death rate 2.85%

France 8.34%

Spain 9.50%

UK 10.21%

Italy 12.32%
 
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Can I provide evidence to document that private insurance enjoys the highest profit margins (and administrative costs, btw) in the health care industry? Absolutely.

But, as usual, you failed to do so.

When extremists like you refer to Medicare with ideological labels like "welfare state program"...you only discredit yourselves.

So your position is that Medicare is NOT a welfare state program?

There's this thing called "reality", you might want to get acquainted with it someday.

And if the American people are better off replacing private healthcare companies with a welfare state program, then they will also be better off replacing auto and homeowner insurance companies with government programs as well.

Just like a righty to equate material possessions to human life.

I know, I'm a terrible person, but you didn't address the point. I'll try again, although I'm pretty sure it won't do any good: if the American people are better off replacing private healthcare companies with a government program, wouldn't they also be better off replacing auto and homeowner insurance companies with government programs as well?

Who are these "workers" who "make way above their true market rates"

Virtually every person who works in a US hospital.

Do you have ANY idea what the "true market rates" are?

Sure, based on what other people charge for the same exact services at accredited facilities around the world. Prices are typically 50 to 80 percent lower.
 
I'm not so sure that is true but, for the sake of argument, if the government system is less costly it is because they stiff providers on payments. It is a well known fact that most providers lose money on Medicare/Medicaid patients and make it up through private insurance reimbursements. Some providers refuse to even see patients on government programs. If you went to MFA the system could not sustain itself.

At one time, I would agree, but now I live in a large (50,000+ resident) retirement community that is virtually all Medicare + supplemental insurance (for ome) to pick up the 20% Medicare dos not pay. The healthcare here is better than any I've had in the last 30 years, and is virtually 100% Medicare. Local (within the boundaries of the community) clinics, providers, specialists and even the 500 bed hospital I can see from my driveway are alive, happy, and functioning very well (I ask). Wait times are short, staffing is abundant, referrals and diagnostic tests are comprehensive, and outcomes are excellent. My GP knows me by name, and actually takes the time to listen and respond without one hand on the doorknob. Medicare works, and works better than many 'insurance + copay only' healthcare options out there. We are all very happy to have such a dedicated and well interconnected system that works so well.
 
1. I am NOT a medical supplier. I provide direct patient care. Frankly.. the folks trying to suggest that I am.. are simply diverting from the facts that I have presented.

Jaeger, just stop. "Not a medical supplier"??? Stop playing semantics games with these people. You are in medical sales, of some sort. You posted that a long time ago, before you started pretending to be a physician. That was also when you were pretending to be a liberal/Democrat on this board, as well. But you are not a licensed physician. You are not a licensed nurse. You are not a liberal/Democrat, either. Now, there's nothing wrong with any of that...until you start trying to pass yourself off as one, in order to be seen as more credible and/or impartial by the people on this forum.

2. Yes democrats.. you HAVE been calling for a decrease in provider salaries. Whether you realize it or not. All it takes is a bit of research on your part to see how many times democrats are calling for "lowering the price of HEALTHCARE".
Versus calling for lowering the price of healthcare INSURANCE.
This is nonsense...and more semantics. Democrats have been focused on IMPROVING Health Care by reforming Health Insurance. That's all Obamacare did. The FACT is that about half of all American physicians now support some version of universal health care (including so-called Medicare-for-All). And that trend is growing. That is not because we support lower compensation for the services we provide. In FACT, opposition to universal health care in the U.S. comes primarily from the Insurance industry, Hospital corporations, and Big Pharma. At the AMA's last convention, support/opposition was almost evenly split. At the NMA's last convention, support was in favor of universal health care. At the American College of Physicians, support is at about 53%. At the American College of Surgeons, support is in the mid 40% range, and rising steadily. And, for the record, The Affordable Care Act was based ENTIRELY improving health care outcomes through health INSURANCE reform.


What most don;t realize is that you know who administers Medicaid and medicare? PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES.

This is simply wrong. Medicare, for example, is administered by The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), previously known as the Health Care Financing Administration (HCFA), which is, itself, a federal agency within the Depart of Health and Human Services (HHS).

Through CMS, Medicare has consistently operated at an overhead of between 2-3% EVERY year (for decades now), compared to that of private insurance carriers who (before the ACA) operated with an overhead of between 12-30%...and since the ACA was enacted, have been mandated by law to reduce their overhead to "NO GREATER THAN 20%". To be clear, that means that Medicare devotes 97cents of every dollar to patient care, compared to about 80cents per dollar by private health insurance companies. That extra 17% (or so, depending on the private insurance company) is devoted to executive compensation, benefits, shareholder dividends, stock by-backs, etc. etc.

There is no arguing that Medicare is much more efficient than private insurance. And NO, Medicare is NOT administered by private insurance companies.
 
Seriously ?

FFS, that's pretty much stolen valor.

Yes, it is.

Especially right now.

That's the only reason I brought it up in this thread.

Jaeger may (or may not) be playing some role in what we REAL physicians are dealing with right now...after all, I work with a lot of device salesmen whose job is to scrub in with me every day and serves as technical support for whatever new device it is they are peddling to me in the OR. But I've never seen or heard of one of those guys pretending to call him/herself as "health care professional". That's just rank,
imo. Jaeger is trying his best to avoid crossing the line. But it's pretty crappy (to put it kindly) of Jaeger to tip toe around words (notice the way he avoids directly saying it) the way he has in this thread.
 
But, as usual, you failed to do so.
As usual, you can't back up your arguments, but you expect others to help you out.

Typical fake-newser.


So your position is that Medicare is NOT a welfare state program?
You're deflecting.

My "position" is that Medicare is ABSOLUTELY a federal insurance program. That is a fact so BASIC that it is simply not arguable.

My other "position" is that people who rely upon empty-headed talking points (like "welfare state program") are typically ideologues who treat facts like vampires treat daylight.

On the other hand, your silly argument is that Medicare is not an insurance program at all. That was either another LIE, or another ignorant comment.


There's this thing called "reality", you might want to get acquainted with it someday.
:lamo
There's this other "thing" called "Education". You might want to stop being so lazy and acquire some...then you'll be able to recognize "reality" when it's slapping you in the face.


I know, I'm a terrible person,
You've done nothing but reinforce that image since joining this forum, that's for sure. From your name...to your empty-FauxNews talking points...to your bigoted and misogynistic rhetoric.

But I'm sure you're very comfortable with that, by now. It comes with being who/what you are.

...but you didn't address the point. I'll try again, although I'm pretty sure it won't do any good: if the American people are better off replacing private healthcare companies with a government program, wouldn't they also be better off replacing auto and homeowner insurance companies with government programs as well?
I should have known that someone like requires a more literal response.

The answer to your query is simple and obvious. Human life is NOT a inanimate commodity to be sold on the open market. That's why healthcare is not equivalent to auto insurance.

That...along with that little documents called the U.S. Constitution. Ever read it?

Virtually every person who works in a US hospital.
So, just as I predicted, you CAN'T back up your argument with ANYTHING other than more of your own ignorant personal opinions.

Sorry but this is IGNORANT. You seem to be one of those conservatives who is filled with resentment toward nameless, faceless entities what you (and your ilk) perceive to be "liberal institutions" in general.

Sure, based on what other people charge for the same exact services at accredited facilities around the world. Prices are typically 50 to 80 percent lower.
[/QUOTE]
:shock:...the various individual health care systems and markets in every other country in the world represent the "true market value" for medical services in America?
Dumbest comment, so far!

You do understand what "markets" are, don't you? If so, please explain to us how the French...or Italian...or English...or Polish....or German health care systems (ALL of which are completely independent entities) have ANYTHING to do with setting the market for salaries of doctors, RN's, LVN's, technicians, janitors, cafeteria workers, etc. etc. in the American health care system.

Please, be candid in your response.
 
As usual, you can't back up your arguments, but you expect others to help you out.

Good Lord, you seem to have the attention span of a small child. Our exchange went like this:

You:The insurance industry operates with the largest profit margins of any player in the American health system.
Me: Evidence please
You: Absolutely. <but provides no evidence for the claim>
Me: You still didn't back up the claim
You: As usual, you can't back up your arguments

So your position is that Medicare is NOT a welfare state program?
You're deflecting.

No, I'm just asking a simple question which you refused to answer. If you're not going to back up your assertions or answer basic questions, then why are you on political debate forum?

The answer to your query is simple and obvious. Human life is NOT a inanimate commodity to be sold on the open market.

We pay mechanics to fix cars and we pay doctors and nurses to fix sick/injured people. Human life is bought and paid for every day, just ask anyone who has received a bill from an American hospital. Why is it ok for hospitals to profit off of sick and dying people, but not health insurance companies? Even non-profit hospitals make big profits:

7 of 10 Most Profitable Hospitals Are NFPs | nonprofit, hospital, profit, tax, revenue HealthLeaders Media

That...along with that little documents called the U.S. Constitution. Ever read it?

Yea, I have, and I don't see anything under article 1, section 8 granting congress the power to operate large welfare programs.


the various individual health care systems and markets in every other country in the world represent the "true market value" for medical services in America?

When you put words in double quotation marks it means that I wrote them verbatim. I did not write the words you quoted. You don't have to know the "true market value" of something to know that the price is grossly and artificially inflated.

You do understand what "markets" are, don't you? If so, please explain to us how the French...or Italian...or English...or Polish....or German health care systems (ALL of which are completely independent entities) have ANYTHING to do with setting the market for salaries of doctors, RN's, LVN's, technicians, janitors, cafeteria workers, etc. etc. in the American health care system.

Once again showing that you're incapable of following a simple argument for more than one post. The bold part is so weird I don't know how you came up with it, but to answer your question, they don't.
 
Exactly what happened to me. I have two pre-existing conditions and the moment Obamacare took over my health care costs soared much higher than they were before. After two years I strongly considered just going without because as long as nothing really bad happened, the cost would be much cheaper just paying the providers out of my pocket than having Obamacare. In the end, my stay at home wife decided to go out and get a job with insurance. I own my own business but still couldn't afford healthcare, even for myself.


20 to 30% of income going to health insurance premiums is totally uncalled for and is bilking the american people for billions and billions of dollars....tks Obama/Biden for nothing.
 
Yes, it is.

Especially right now.

That's the only reason I brought it up in this thread.

Jaeger may (or may not) be playing some role in what we REAL physicians are dealing with right now...after all, I work with a lot of device salesmen whose job is to scrub in with me every day and serves as technical support for whatever new device it is they are peddling to me in the OR. But I've never seen or heard of one of those guys pretending to call him/herself as "health care professional". That's just rank,
imo. Jaeger is trying his best to avoid crossing the line. But it's pretty crappy (to put it kindly) of Jaeger to tip toe around words (notice the way he avoids directly saying it) the way he has in this thread.

Medical service provider with direct patient care. He is trying to pass off as physician. Is he one of those guys that come in the hospital dressed in scrubs with those metal trays full of hip replacements?
 
20 to 30% of income going to health insurance premiums is totally uncalled for and is bilking the american people for billions and billions of dollars....tks Obama/Biden for nothing.

Part of the problem with both sides is that neither side does anything to get to the root cause of why healthcare costs so much. The left claim it is the middleman (health insurance companies) so if you just get rid of them we save on the middleman costs, while it completely goes over their heads that all it would do is transfer the middleman from the private side to the government side, which is ripe with waste and fraud. So, no savings, just transferring the middleman to the government. The left's other solution is to just stiff all of the providers and be damned with the high costs they have. The right have basically no solutions at all.
 
I'm not so sure that is true but, for the sake of argument, if the government system is less costly it is because they stiff providers on payments. It is a well known fact that most providers lose money on Medicare/Medicaid patients and make it up through private insurance reimbursements. Some providers refuse to even see patients on government programs. If you went to MFA the system could not sustain itself.



"because they stiff providers on payments"

I haven't heard of other countries' complaining to any significant degree. The question remains, which you did not answer (typical), Why is it you think America can't do as well as those countries with UH?
 
"because they stiff providers on payments"

I haven't heard of other countries' complaining to any significant degree. The question remains, which you did not answer (typical), Why is it you think America can't do as well as those countries with UH?

Other countries have different root causes of the costs of health care. You guys are ok with providers having to pay huge costs for healthcare but then stiff them on their payments. That system can't work. We have to decrease the costs that providers have to pay.
 
Medical service provider with direct patient care. He is trying to pass off as physician. Is he one of those guys that come in the hospital dressed in scrubs with those metal trays full of hip replacements?

Essentially, yes.

Nothing wrong with that, mind you.

But he's been playing this same semantics game on the board for a long time now. And, as you can see in this thread, he uses it to gain credibility from others to his personal political perspective on subjects pertaining to health care. Originally, he insisted to me that he was a progressive/Democrat who opposed the ACA because "as a health care professional" he understood the issue better than others. He didn't know I was a physician until much later. Lately, he's given up that charade. Basically, he's a conservative who opposes what he considers "Socialism" (which is not always the same thing as ACTUAL Socialism), and he tries to use his "health care provider" title as his bonafides.

I don't care about his politics. That's what this board is for. Calling oneself a "healthcare professional" simply because you sell or in-service equipment and are sometimes in the room with physicians and nurses to actually care for patients...is a bit like calling an Army supply clerk calling himself a "war hero".

My only beef: Just don't try to pass yourself off as a physician or nurse. Especially now. That's all.
 
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