A little bird told me: Abortion is wrong

RobertU · Nov 2, 2024

The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

BitterPill · Nov 2, 2024

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

Sadly, birds sometimes abort:

An avian equivalent of selective abortion: postlaying clutch reduction under resource limitation

Parent birds unable to rear all their offspring due to resource limitation may decide not to hatch all of their eggs. I show that red-necked grebes may aba

academic.oup.com

Perhaps you can find an animal that doesn't, and good luck! We need some genuine examples to maintain and extend our patriarchy over women.

MAGA.

BirdinHand · Nov 2, 2024

pineapple on pizza is also considered wrong by some.

Don’t want an abortion? Don’t have one.

Don’t want pineapple on your pizza? Don’t order it.

What other people decide is none of your business.

Phys251 · Nov 2, 2024

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

Have you petitioned your representative for a kidney registration yet?

Lursa · Nov 2, 2024

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

The unborn has no feelings and no consciousness until very late in gestation. Some studies say not until after birth.

Do you have any other point? Any reasoning for laws, moral perspective, society, or practicality that should prioritize protecting the unborn over the life and health of a woman, and subject her to 9 months of painful, often debilitating pregnancy that can affect the rest of her life? Making sacrifices that risk her health, income, ability to support dependents, ability to uphold her commitments and obligations to others?

That

makes it likely society will end up being financially responsible for raising a child that was unwanted emotionally, physically, financially? And I wrote 'financially responsible." Who will be responsible for its emotional well-being?

craig · Nov 2, 2024

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

You don't eat eggs?

Lursa · Nov 2, 2024

craig said:
You don't eat eggs?

Yes, but very very very quietly.

Loulit01 · Nov 2, 2024

Little birds talk a lot of shit...

CaughtInThe · Nov 2, 2024

It's the men with wives, daughters and granddaughters who could swing this election to Harris/down ticket Dems.

They don't want their loved ones controlled or to die.

For example...

Bodi · Nov 2, 2024

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

93% of abortions take place at 20 weeks and earlier. Something might be starting around then but it is irrelevant.

Women should have control of their own bodies and not be controlled by others, especially men.

Noodlegawd · Nov 3, 2024

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

You know that people eat birds, right? Even AFTER they are born?

Gordy327 · Nov 3, 2024

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth,

That would be incorrect. Or intentionaly misleading. Which is it? The pro-choice position is just that, choice for the pregnant woman to make for herself regarding her pregnancy decisions. Nothing more.

RobertU said:
Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

Yes!

Gordy327 · Nov 3, 2024

Lursa said:
The unborn has no feelings and no consciousness until very late in gestation. Some studies say not until after birth.

Indeed. I have yet to see anyone explain what is "wrong" with abortion. At least, an explanation that doesn't rely on their feelings, beliefs, or appeals to emotion.

RobertU · Apr 29, 2025

Memory isn’t confined to your brain; cells throughout your body possess memory-like capabilities that challenge traditional notions of where and how memories are stored.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...S&cvid=04dfb304ecf54385aa7e111e8bc4b4f5&ei=27

If memory is part of consciousness and your soul, then a fetus could be a “conscious” being while the brain is still developing.

Gordy327 · Apr 29, 2025

RobertU said:
Memory isn’t confined to your brain; cells throughout your body possess memory-like capabilities that challenge traditional notions of where and how memories are stored.

It isn't so much "memory" as it is a stimulus response. Memory is primarily the function of tbe hypocampus. Do you remember your time in utero or right after birth?

RobertU said:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...S&cvid=04dfb304ecf54385aa7e111e8bc4b4f5&ei=27

If memory is part of consciousness and your soul, then a fetus could be a “conscious” being while the brain is still developing.

What science says there's a soul? Where is the "soul" locates in the body? A fetus is not conscious, as the part of the brain is still developing and not fully functional.

Loulit01 · Apr 29, 2025

Gordy327 said:
It isn't so much "memory" as it is a stimulus response. Memory is primarily the function of tbe hypocampus. Do you remember your time in utero or right after birth?

What science says there's a soul? Where is the "soul" locates in the body? A fetus is not conscious, as the part of the brain is still developing and not fully functional.

Yeah, what he said.

Lursa · Apr 29, 2025

RobertU said:
Memory isn’t confined to your brain; cells throughout your body possess memory-like capabilities that challenge traditional notions of where and how memories are stored.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...S&cvid=04dfb304ecf54385aa7e111e8bc4b4f5&ei=27

If memory is part of consciousness and your soul, then a fetus could be a “conscious” being while the brain is still developing.

What soul?

And why does "consciousness" matter?

Bodi · Apr 29, 2025

RobertU said:
Memory isn’t confined to your brain; cells throughout your body possess memory-like capabilities that challenge traditional notions of where and how memories are stored.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...S&cvid=04dfb304ecf54385aa7e111e8bc4b4f5&ei=27

If memory is part of consciousness and your soul, then a fetus could be a “conscious” being while the brain is still developing.

If you are going to bring Dark Magic into a scientific discussion, your posts will consequently be... Irrelevant. Rebecca Shavit sounds like a moron and your article is not backed by anything, literally, other than her opinion.

h

Loulit01 · Apr 29, 2025

If memory is part of consciousness and your soul, then a fetus could be a “conscious” being while the brain is still developing.

"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
—Tweedledum

quip · May 3, 2025

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

Birds do not gestate internally. Alleged "learning capacity" rendered irrelevant to the human gestational issues involving bodily autonomy.

SoccerCoach · May 14, 2025

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

A fetus does not have thoughts as there is no prefrontal cortex yet. It can process emotions and create memory due to a functioning limbic system. At the time of birth. Mother child communication is by what we call affects, love fear security etc. Emotions are the language and familiar touch is the voice. hen the infant has needs the mother is there to fulfil it by creating experiences that mees the infants needs. THis teaches the nature of the world. They exist as one psychology as an infant requires 6 months to understand its an individual apart from the mother. This is wahy in adoption when they are separated the infant experiences a severe preverbal trauma that will alter development.

maquiscat · May 17, 2025

RobertU said:
The pro-choice position that the fetus is a blank slate, with no feelings or thoughts until birth, may be challenged by bird studies that show the unborn can listen and learn.

In “Pecking Order” by Rivka Galchen in the October 21 issue of The New Yorker, we discover that tiny fairy wrens communicate with their young who are still in the eggs. “The mothers in nests were producing an incubation call—a call to the eggs,” said bird ecologist Sonia Kleindorfer. After birth, each chick’s “begging call” matched an element from the incubation call.

Per the author: This suggested, startlingly, that birds learn a literal mother tongue while still in ovo. (Humans do this, too; French and German babies have distinct cries.) Even “foster” chicks, who as eggs were physically moved from one nest to another, learned begging calls from their foster mothers, rather than from their genetic mothers.

The mother-to-unborn communication was even more remarkable considering that the fairy wren egg is smaller than a thumbnail and songbird embryos do not have well-developed ears. Can we continue to dismiss the much larger human fetus as being just a bunch of cells with no feelings, thoughts, or capacity to absorb information from the outside world?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/10/21/how-scientists-started-to-decode-birdsong

I thought this seemed familiar. That's at least 4 of us that are both here and on PF

There is a question of when the learning is taking place during the gestation period. If we consider when most abortions take place in humans, there is nothing developed for learning to take place with. When we consider that part of gestation in which learning could conceivably take place, the overwhelming majority of abortions are about the risk of health or life of the women. The idea of learning, in and of itself, is a red herring to the issue.

maquiscat · May 17, 2025

craig said:
You don't eat eggs?

Not a good comparison. The eggs that we get in the stores are not fertilized, and so they are not developing entities that will be "born" in any way. This comparison is akin to the women having her period where the egg is flushed away, undeveloped.

maquiscat · May 17, 2025

Gordy327 said:
Indeed. I have yet to see anyone explain what is "wrong" with abortion. At least, an explanation that doesn't rely on their feelings, beliefs, or appeals to emotion.

Can you explain what is wrong with homicide without feelings, beliefs or appeals to emotions that doesn't compare with abortion? Quite honestly, even the argument of bodily autonomy requires belief and appeal to emotion, not to mention feelings. For the most part, the problem with the anti-choice crowd is that they simply aren't consistent in applying their reasons to all the common situations, instead of cherry picking what it applies to.

Gordy327 · May 17, 2025

maquiscat said:
Can you explain what is wrong with homicide without feelings, beliefs or appeals to emotions that doesn't compare with abortion?

It violates one's bodily autonomy and rights under the Constitution.

maquiscat said:
Quite honestly, even the argument of bodily autonomy requires belief and appeal to emotion, not to mention feelings.

Fortunately, I can make a legal and/or pragmatic argument.

maquiscat said:
For the most part, the problem with the anti-choice crowd is that they simply aren't consistent in applying their reasons to all the common situations, instead of cherry picking what it applies to.

Fortunately, I am consistent with my position of zero abortion restrictions. As a real world example of that, Canada has no restrictions and they have a lower abortion rate.

maquiscat said:
Not a good comparison. The eggs that we get in the stores are not fertilized, and so they are not developing entities that will be "born" in any way.

If they were, they would still be in a shell.

maquiscat said:
This comparison is akin to the women having her period where the egg is flushed away, undeveloped.

Pregnancy is akin to a parasite or tumor inhabiting one's body.

A little bird told me: Abortion is wrong

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