A Libertarian's argument against abortion

[Felicity]

And therein lies the answer to the Abortion question. People can sit around and discuss the philosophy/constitutionality of abortion all day long but in the end its rather stupid. It all boils down to "is a fetus person or property?" If it is a person it is accorded the rights due to every human, namly the right to life. If it is property, the woman is entitled to the right of privacy and the freedom to do with her property as she wishes. It really depends on when you beleive that life begins.

FI believes life begins at conception--but "personhood" doesn't :doh .

Actually--many on these threads argue the same position--that one must be able to demonstrate cognative ability in order to be considered a "person" even though they are a live human "organism" (as FI likes to make the distinction).

 

[steen]

And therein lies the answer to the Abortion question. People can sit around and discuss the philosophy/constitutionality of abortion all day long but in the end its rather stupid. It all boils down to "is a fetus person or property?" If it is a person it is accorded the rights due to every human, namly the right to life.

Ah, but does such a right of a person extend to the use of another person's bodily resources against that person's will?

Certainly, if I am bleeding to death or need your extra kidney to survive, I don't have a "right to life" allowing me to take your blood or kidney against your will.

So why does it actually matter whether there is a person or a fetus?

If it is property, the woman is entitled to the right of privacy and the freedom to do with her property as she wishes. It really depends on when you beleive that life begins.

Another pro-life falacy. Lots of things are "life" without being a person. Your attempt at using the terms interchangeably is not valid.

 

[Gaivs Ivlivs]

Certainly, if I am bleeding to death or need your extra kidney to survive, I don't have a "right to life" allowing me to take your blood or kidney against your will.

Did I pull out your kidney? Your comparison doesn't work. The mother through her behavior chose to do that which would get her pregnant (rape is a seperate issue)... therefore to her falls the consequences. Her idiocy/mistake/carelessness shouldn't constitute a death sentence for the child she conceived.

Now I am not fully anti abortion, I beleive that there are certain cases which need to be viewed individualy(rape, medical emergency) and I am not particularily opposed to a first trimester abortion. My problem lies with the second/third trimester. When its a bunch of cells.... I have a hard time viewing it as a person; but once it has a beating heart, a cerebral cortex, nerves and can feel pleasure and pain I cannot condone its senseless murder as a means of birth control.

 

[Vandeervecken]

Did I pull out your kidney? Your comparison doesn't work. The mother through her behavior chose to do that which would get her pregnant (rape is a seperate issue)... therefore to her falls the consequences. Her idiocy/mistake/carelessness shouldn't constitute a death sentence for the child she conceived.

Now I am not fully anti abortion, I beleive that there are certain cases which need to be viewed individualy(rape, medical emergency) and I am not particularily opposed to a first trimester abortion. My problem lies with the second/third trimester. When its a bunch of cells.... I have a hard time viewing it as a person; but once it has a beating heart, a cerebral cortex, nerves and can feel pleasure and pain I cannot condone its senseless murder as a means of birth control.

Bingo sooner or later true colors always show. Pregnancy and children are PUNISHMENT for not living up to your moral code.

If you get in an accident while driving, should you be denied medical care becasue there is a risk of accident when you drive?

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. Abortion is illegla, ergo not murder. A fetus is not yet a human being, it is a parasite inside its host, ergo not murder.

The pregnancy as punishment slip of yours was very telling.

 

[Felicity]

I have a hard time viewing it as a person; but once it has a beating heart, a cerebral cortex, nerves and can feel pleasure and pain I cannot condone its senseless murder as a means of birth control.

You seem to not be aware that the heart begins beating around mid-1st trimester--about 8 weeks.


What does pain/pleasure have to do with anything? There are human beings who cannot feel pain or pleasure....Why is it different for fetuses?

 

[FutureIncoming]

Felicity wrote: "FI believes life begins at conception--but "personhood" doesn't."

TRUE, because they are different concepts, just as "human" and "personhood" are different concepts. The mere fact that nonhumans can be granted person-status AUTOMATICALLY means that "personhood" and "human" are two different concepts. Which therefore led to the challenge in my signature, and our lengthy discussions that followed.


Felicity also wrote: "Actually--many on these threads argue the same position--that one must be able to demonstrate cognative ability in order to be considered a "person" even though they are a live human "organism" (as FI likes to make the distinction).

ACCURACY is the reason for both. It is vastly easier to show that some biological organism is alive, than it is to show that that life matters a whit.

 

[FutureIncoming]

Gaivs Ivlivs wrote: "Did I pull out your kidney? Your comparison doesn't work. The mother through her behavior chose to do that which would get her pregnant"

HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! You seem to be another one of the ignorance-spouters who think that just because sperm and egg happen to be in proximity, fertilization is being forced to happen. YOU ARE WRONG. The FACT is, about 1/7 of all couples are infertile, even though the woman is producing eggs and the man is producing sperm, and both may want children. Natural Mindless Biology is FULLY in charge of whether or not fertilization occurs, and for those couples, it does NOT cooperate, much less acquiesce to their Wills. THIS MEANS THAT WILLS ARE FREE TO NOT COOPERATE WITH OR ACQUIESCE TO NATURAL MINDLESS BIOLOGY, when it does something that those Wills don't want to happen. GO AHEAD, tell everyone here that when they catch a disease, they must not go to a doctor for treatment, because they MUST submit their Wills to Natural Mindless Biology.


Gaivs Ivlivs also wrote: "(rape is a seperate issue)... therefore to her falls the consequences."

Yes, she is free to deal with the consequences of Natural Mindless Biology in ANY way she chooses!


Gaivs Ivlivs also wrote: "Her idiocy/mistake/carelessness shouldn't constitute a death sentence for the child she conceived."

HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! MORE ignorance-spoutings! The word "child" is INAPPLICABLE before birth. Did not your ancestors teach you "Don't count your chickens before they are hatched"?? THEY PASSED THAT ADVICE ON FOR A REASON, and it applies to unborn humans, too. A significant percentage of pregnancies miscarry or result in still-births, after all. Where is "child" in that? All you have are corpses! Unless they are born and keep living, of course! NEXT, I see you have repeated the previous ignorance about "she conceived" when that is IMPOSSIBLE. The ONLY thing she can do is increase (or decrease) the probability that Natural Mindless Biology will cause fertilization to occur. NEXT, when a mindless living organism is unwanted, like a mosquito on your arm or fungus on your feet, there is NO issue with carrying out a death sentence upon that organism. Why should it be any different for MINDLESS unborn humans? Other than the worthless excuse of ignorant prejudice, that is?



Gaivs Ivlivs also wrote: "My problem lies with the second/third trimester. When its a bunch of cells.... I have a hard time viewing it as a person; but once it has a beating heart, a cerebral cortex, nerves and can feel pleasure and pain I cannot condone its senseless murder as a means of birth control."

UNDERSTANDABLE, BUT STILL A SPOUTING OF IGNORANCE. You ARE talking about just an animal, after all. Unwanted animals are "put down" VERY regularly, so why should a distinction be made just because the unwanted animal happens to be human? THINK about what you wrote above: Your description of a living animal applies to pigs, sheep, cows, etcetera, animals that are routinely slaughtered for lunch. IF, just because a human animal has the characteristics you describe, and therefore ought to be considered a "person", THEN why shouldn't all those other animals with the same characteristics also be called persons??? YOUR DEFINITION OF PERSON NEEDS WORK. After which you will find NO reason to continue to call an unborn human animal a "person".

 

[steen]

Did I pull out your kidney? Your comparison doesn't work.

Sure it does. Unless it is not a right to life you are talking about, but rather the placing blame.

If there is a "right to life," then the need of a life would trump your choice. The dying kidney patient would have the right to take your extra kidney for survival, even if you don't chose to do so.

When it suddenly is not enough for a "life" to be saved, then we are NOT talking about a right to life, and thus the claim about it is false. Right to life doesn't exist, it is a pro-life lie.

The mother through her behavior chose to do that which would get her pregnant (rape is a seperate issue)... therefore to her falls the consequences. Her idiocy/mistake/carelessness shouldn't constitute a death sentence for the child she conceived.

So you are not pro-life, but rather pro-fault. So your talking about a right to life then is dishonest.

Now I am not fully anti abortion, I beleive that there are certain cases which need to be viewed individualy(rape, medical emergency) and I am not particularily opposed to a first trimester abortion. My problem lies with the second/third trimester.

Third trimester abortions are VERY rare and are medical emergencies. Are you sure you want to oppose them? I will assume that you don't, and thus focus on the 2nd trimester abortions here.

When its a bunch of cells.... I have a hard time viewing it as a person; but once it has a beating heart,

Well, that's about the time it becomes a fetus.

a cerebral cortex, nerves and can feel pleasure and pain I cannot condone its senseless murder as a means of birth control.

Well, THAT would be somewhere in the 3rd trimester, around 30-32 weeks at the earliest. So you are OK with all abortions before then?