A Liberal's Constructive Criticism for Libertarians

[Mensch]

That is not what I was saying. It is about investing one person with a great deal of power over many people. Your philosophy naturally results in one person having considerable authority over a great number of people.

No, that is the result of YOUR centralized government philosophy. My whole political philosophy is about individuals having a great deal of power (or even absolute power) over their own hearts, minds, and bodies, NOT over other people. Power is the control over people, and this is why libertarians are so wary of governmental officials, centralized planning, and general political tango.

You know, I really don't care what you claim is impossible.

I did not claim anything. I reiterated a simple, common historical fact that no one can, or has ever been able to privately control an entire state of people. You seem to think that a libertarian model government will allow private, wealthy individuals to control the entire state through the purchase of all the private property. No monarch in history has even come to that! No such scenario has ever taken place, and it is simply impossible. If you can somehow demonstrate how such a scenario would be able to play out through the use of historical data, then you might have an argument.

This country has put many checks on the power of wealthy individuals. I find it odd that you would consider this country to be even remotely close enough to your desires to make for a valid example.

You have consistently argued that corporations control people, and that wealthy individuals act as dictators on their own private lands. It's a ridiculous idea. Private property owners are not dictators, but are simply defending their own property. You wouldn't call Obama a dictator because the U.S. excludes the majority of people trying to immigrate to the United States. The property owner decides who can enter onto the land and who cannot, but that doesn't make the property owner a dictator. It just gives him the jurisdiction over the property, since he made the necessary sacrifices to obtain the land. When the people are allowed on the owner's land, the owner has no justification to act like a dictator. If the owner attempts to imprison people on his land, or turn them into slaves, the government can and should (even a libertarian government) severly punish the property owner. So then, how are wealthy property owners acting like dictators, in your opinion?

How do corporations control you by not giving you any alternative?

 

[Elutherian]

You can always send me your counterfeit currency,or you can purchase gold at its historic nominal price. :2razz:

I have already done so, as well as silver, which spiked this morning to historic heights.

If the system was weak, the bid to cover in US treasury auctions would not be greater than 3:1 on a consistent basis. If the system was weak, the long end of the yield curve would not be flirting with 4%.

Treasury auctions and yield curves are indicative of nothing but expectation. Other countries have long put their faith in an overvalued dollar-based market, this system is already beginning to unravel. The Fed's current "stimulus" has created yet another period of artificial growth, and so the yield spread has a larger rate of return in the long-term. As soon as the banks begin lending the built up reserves, which they have already started to do, inflation will drive the cost of living up again. (we are already seeing higher gas prices, and food prices, which are generally the sectors where inflation first hits) When that happens, the yield curve will invert, lending will halt, malinvestments will rise, credit will freeze, the Fed will do the only thing it knows how to do, and I fear the next bust period will be far too steep for credit expansion to re-inflate the market. Hyperinflation will eventually come, it is the inevitable reaction to currency devaluation in the amount it is rapidly approaching.

Have i made any comments regarding aggression? Not sure how this negates the fact that the biggest contribution from the Austrian school in the last 25 years was a call for socialism.

Fraud, which is at the heart of Fractional Reserves, and paper-based currency, is a form of aggression. The economist did not call for socialism, you are grossly misrepresenting what he said, and it is far from the "greatest contribution" the Austrian School has made. They continue to be proven right, and we will be proven right again, to our great dissolution.

 

[Elutherian]

The bold is either incomplete or incorrect.

Count up the number of panics, recessions, and include the Great Depression, you will come to 23... unless I overcounted or undercounted by one, it has happened before. The averages were estimates, I do not think I am far off.

 

[Elutherian]

The point is that business can be the State and thus any talk of giving business greater independence and the State less power in order to have liberty is flawed.

Business does not have it's being in violence, the State does. They are two seperate creatures entirely. Businesses can be aggressive, States must be in order to be States. Do not think I will not fight just as vehemently against aggression by private institutions, because I have and I will. However, I have yet to see any business or corporation not working for the State do anything on the level of inhumanity and destruction that governments throughout human history have shown.

Did you seriously just say that you would rather have the U.S. become a feudal state? :doh

Compared to our current system, yes. It's akin to saying I'd rather suffocate to death than be crucified.

 

[Kushinator]

I have already done so, as well as silver, which spiked this morning to historic heights.

Treasury auctions and yield curves are indicative of nothing but expectation. Other countries have long put their faith in an overvalued dollar-based market, this system is already beginning to unravel. The Fed's current "stimulus" has created yet another period of artificial growth, and so the yield spread has a larger rate of return in the long-term. As soon as the banks begin lending the built up reserves, which they have already started to do, inflation will drive the cost of living up again. (we are already seeing higher gas prices, and food prices, which are generally the sectors where inflation first hits) When that happens, the yield curve will invert, lending will halt, malinvestments will rise, credit will freeze, the Fed will do the only thing it knows how to do, and I fear the next bust period will be far too steep for credit expansion to re-inflate. Hyperinflation will eventually come, it is the inevitable reaction to currency devaluation in the amount it is rapidly approaching.

Without labels, what do these charts signify?

Fraud, which is at the heart of Fractional Reserves, and paper-based currency, is a form of aggression. The economist did not call for socialism, you are grossly misrepresenting what he said, and it is far from the "greatest contribution" the Austrian School has made. They continue to be proven right, and we will be proven right again, to our great dissolution.

TB is a renowned socialist who integrated Hayekian knowledge problems in a model for democratic socialism.

 

[Elutherian]

Without labels, what do these charts signify?

That Y is on a generally downward slope.

TB is a renowned socialist who integrated Hayekian knowledge problems in a model for democratic socialism.

Then he is not an Austrian. I did not gather he was a socialist from his writing, however, only that it was feasable in an Austrian society.

 

[Kushinator]

Count up the number of panics, recessions, and include the Great Depression, you will come to 23... unless I overcounted or undercounted by one, it has happened before. The averages were estimates, I do not think I am far off.

There were only 20 recession including the GD during the 1900's. The frequencies are off, and you failed to label the 3 major depressions (and nearly dozen banking panics) of the 1800's. This is most likely due to a lack of understanding of what peak to trough means when the duration is large vs small. Either way, you were wrong.

 

[Elutherian]

There were only 20 recession including the GD during the 1900's. The frequencies are off, and you failed to label the 3 major depressions (and nearly dozen banking panics) of the 1800's. This is most likely due to a lack of understanding of what peak to trough means when the duration is large vs small. Either way, you were wrong.

So we're playing the 'who can condescend the greatest' game. I don't enjoy playing that game.

I made a mistake by estimating, from my memory, as I can see you are obviously not going to let this go. Afterall, being a sell-out to your ideology and all, you really don't have anything else to rely on.

Well, what'dya know... I am good at this game afterall.

 

[Kushinator]

That Y is on a generally downward slope.

Nope! The Yen is appreciating relative to all currencies, even gold! In fact, if you bought gold 6 months ago with Yen, it is currently worth less. But....

How can this happen if their monetary policy is nearly the same as ours (and they have been near zero for over a decade). It shows your means of understanding global currency exchange is limited. There is a reason Volker abandoned targeting the quantity of money.

Then he is not an Austrian. I did not gather he was a socialist from his writing, however, only that it was feasable in an Austrian society.

They have given them their most distinguished award. Hmmmmmm......

 

[Kushinator]

The Smith Center :: Austrian Economics

Each year the Smith Center awards a prize of $1,000 to (a) the author of a book and (b) the author of an article that are selected as the best in Austrian economics in the previous three years. The awards are made at the annual dinner of the Society for the Development of Austrian Economics (SDAE) which is always held during the annual meeting of the Southern Economic Association. The best book and article are chosen by a committee of three economists who are active contributors to the Austrian economics literature.

Say it ain't so!:lamo

 

[Elutherian]

Nope! The Yen is appreciating relative to all currencies, even gold! In fact, if you bought gold 6 months ago with Yen, it is currently worth less. But....

How can this happen if their monetary policy is nearly the same as ours (and they have been near zero for over a decade). It shows your means of understanding global currency exchange is limited. There is a reason Volker abandoned targeting the quantity of money.

I was still correct, technically, for not having the label of Y or X.

All non-U.S. currencies that are currently pegged to the dollar, but can be unpegged, are fairing better on the exchange market. Which chart shows the relationship between the Yen and Gold? It may not be surprising, especially if the Japanese government has purchased excessive amounts of gold to manipulate the market. Our government has been involved in the practice many times before.

I do wonder what the Yen's relation to silver is, however, especially after this morning's news.

 

[Elutherian]

The Smith Center :: Austrian Economics



Say it ain't so!:lamo

I must admit to having not heard much about Theodore Burczak, but from what I've read on him after skimming over a few autobiographical links and summaries of his work, I can't say I disagree with his theory that socialism would be feasable on a free market. I do not think the two philosophies are at odds in an Anarchist society, they can exist side by side.

 

[Kushinator]

I was still correct, technically, for not having the label of Y or X.

All non-U.S. currencies that are currently pegged to the dollar, but can be un-pegged, are fairing better on the exchange market. Which chart shows the relationship between the Yen and Gold? It may not be surprising, especially if the Japanese government has purchased excessive amounts of gold to manipulate the market. Our government has been involved in the practice many times before.

Take the valuation of Yen in say June 2010, and convert it to the dollar value. Then take the June 2010 price of gold and set up an equation to find how much Yen it would have cost to buy an ounce of gold in June 2010. Then, find the current value of the Yen in terms of dollars, and set up an equation to find out how much gold would cost now in terms of Yen. The results will surprise you.

The point i am trying to make is that there does not exist a 1:1 relationship between expansionary monetary policy and currency devaluation in the short run or long run. In the short run, the Fed, BOJ, BOC, etc..., have to intervene via the forex market to cause prices to rise. Japan has been unsuccessful in devaluing their currency, and they have had an expansionary monetary policy for over 10 years! Why? Because it is far more complex (inflation) than simply increasing bank reserves.

Inflation requires monetary velocity; which is a demand determinant. Until demand picks up, the fear of deflation will continue to be the main concern of developed economies. The hyperbole of 1920's Germany, or Zimbabwe is off base because the circumstances surrounding these hyperinflation issues do not exist in the current state of global economics.

In late 2007, early 2008, we were all told by the Austrians that hyperinflation was the end result of the sub-prime crisis. What happened? The opposite (as what happened in Japan). The US slipped into deflation and every nation in the world flew into US treasuries; they did so for a reason. Not because our system is unstable; but because on a relative scale, our system is by far the most stable signified U.S. consumers subsidizing the entire developing world by purchasing their goods.

There is something called "Financial Dark Matter" which prevents the scenarios depicted by Austrian's. Do some research.

I do wonder what the Yen's relation to silver is, however, especially after this morning's news.

If you really knew what you were doing, you would have been purchasing future contracts in Yen (high leverage) and using your profits to leverage gold ETF's via in the money calls (or selling puts). That way, you get a two front exposure on a weaker dollar; first in terms of Yen, second in terms of gold. Want to learn how to create synthetic derivatives; ditch the Austrians and learn about finance.

 

[Demon of Light]

No, that is the result of YOUR centralized government philosophy. My whole political philosophy is about individuals having a great deal of power (or even absolute power) over their own hearts, minds, and bodies, NOT over other people.

What do you call the relationship between employer and employee? How about the relationship between landlord and tenant?

I did not claim anything. I reiterated a simple, common historical fact that no one can, or has ever been able to privately control an entire state of people.

I gave you a clear example of such a situation with the Congo Free State. That the individual who owned it was a monarch is quite irrelevant. However, many private corporations have controlled territories or states throughout history. That is a central element of European colonialism.

You have consistently argued that corporations control people, and that wealthy individuals act as dictators on their own private lands. It's a ridiculous idea. Private property owners are not dictators, but are simply defending their own property.

That rationale works if you are talking about a single-family domicile and the grounds around it. However, when you are talking about apartment complexes or business chains it becomes a lot different.

You wouldn't call Obama a dictator because the U.S. excludes the majority of people trying to immigrate to the United States. The property owner decides who can enter onto the land and who cannot, but that doesn't make the property owner a dictator. It just gives him the jurisdiction over the property, since he made the necessary sacrifices to obtain the land. When the people are allowed on the owner's land, the owner has no justification to act like a dictator. If the owner attempts to imprison people on his land, or turn them into slaves, the government can and should (even a libertarian government) severly punish the property owner. So then, how are wealthy property owners acting like dictators, in your opinion?

Defense of property is used to justify a great deal. Also, you neglect to mention that the property owner would be allowed to expel anyone from the land as well, for any reason. Someone refusing to leave could be removed by force. People can be detained by private individuals as well.

Business does not have it's being in violence, the State does. They are two seperate creatures entirely. Businesses can be aggressive, States must be in order to be States. Do not think I will not fight just as vehemently against aggression by private institutions, because I have and I will. However, I have yet to see any business or corporation not working for the State do anything on the level of inhumanity and destruction that governments throughout human history have shown.

They are not two separate creatures. Any organized group can be a government and thus a state. It does not matter if that group is a privately-owned business, a church, or a non-profit.

Compared to our current system, yes. It's akin to saying I'd rather suffocate to death than be crucified.

This pretty much proves you are far too committed to your ideology to make an objective analysis.

 

[Elutherian]

Take the valuation of Yen in say June 2010, and convert it to the dollar value. Then take the June 2010 price of gold and set up an equation to find how much Yen it would have cost to buy an ounce of gold in June 2010. Then, find the current value of the Yen in terms of dollars, and set up an equation to find out how much gold would cost now in terms of Yen. The results will surprise you.

Because I don't have immediate access to the information in order to make both of those equations, I'll let you fill me in on the details.

I did some quick research and was not surprised to see that Japan has been purchasing gold, while I was also unsurprised to see that China and Japan have ceased buying U.S. Debt. This has much to do with the Yen's current value to gold.

Japan goes for gold | 01 September 2010 | www.commodityonline.com

Japan and China Stop Buying US Debt

The point i am trying to make is that there does not exist a 1:1 relationship between expansionary monetary policy and currency devaluation in the short run or long run. In the short run, the Fed, BOJ, BOC, etc..., have to intervene via the forex market to cause prices to rise. Japan has been unsuccessful in devaluing their currency, and they have had an expansionary monetary policy for over 10 years! Why? Because it is far more complex (inflation) than simply increasing bank reserves.

Because the Yen is currently valued above gold in the foriegn exchange market says nothing of Japan's currency devaluation overall, or inflation. In the modern, complex global economy, matter hadly ever are the way they seem. The laws of the market, however, will always overpower the financial trickery of central bankers and clueless economists like Paul Krugman.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/iet/japan/japan.pdf

Japan Says It Won’t Join Currency Devaluation Race - BusinessWeek

Japan's Currency Hits a 7 Month High

Inflation requires monetary velocity; which is a demand determinant. Until demand picks up, the fear of deflation will continue to be the main concern of developed economies. The hyperbole of 1920's Germany, or Zimbabwe is off base because the circumstances surrounding these hyperinflation issues do not exist in the current state of global economics.

I agree with your first sentence... at least in the sense of rising prices, monetary inflation has already occured... and seeing as faith in the market is beginning to pick up, as is shown with the yield curve, we are about to see demand rise. Deflation would actually be a blessing, considering the extensive amount of inflation America has experienced for the past 100 years (97%), but it won't happen if the Fed has anything to say about it.

Germany and Zimbabwe aren't simialar at all to each other in economic circumstances, the only factor they have in common is extreme monetary expansion. This is something the Federal Reserve is currently doing at a greater rate than we have ever seen.

In late 2007, early 2008, we were all told by the Austrians that hyperinflation was the end result of the sub-prime crisis. What happened? The opposite (as what happened in Japan). The US slipped into deflation and every nation in the world flew into US treasuries; they did so for a reason. Not because our system is unstable; but because on a relative scale, our system is by far the most stable signified U.S. consumers subsidizing the entire developing world by purchasing their goods.

I still maintain it will be the end result. The next crash will, more than likely, be the last. Unlike Japan, we cannot rely on simialar circumstances to keep us out of hyperinflation.

There is something called "Financial Dark Matter" which prevents the scenarios depicted by Austrian's. Do some research.

"Financial Dark Matter". LOL, Keynesians. Dark Matter seems to be just another idiotic effort to disguise the facts, like coming into the office without shaving so the boss will think you've been at work all night. That is what happens when people get desperate; they invent fantastic stories and far-fetched explanations.

If you really knew what you were doing, you would have been purchasing future contracts in Yen (high leverage) and using your profits to leverage gold ETF's via in the money calls (or selling puts). That way, you get a two front exposure on a weaker dollar; first in terms of Yen, second in terms of gold. Want to learn how to create synthetic derivatives; ditch the Austrians and learn about finance.

I don't want to learn how to create derivatives, which go part in parcel with the financial crisis, nor am I interested in investing in another fiat currency simply because it's falling at a slower rate than the fiat currency this government prints.

 

[Elutherian]

They are not two separate creatures. Any organized group can be a government and thus a state. It does not matter if that group is a privately-owned business, a church, or a non-profit.

Sigh. Obviously you don't understand in the least what I'm saying.

In order for a government to be a government... follow me?... it HAS... again, follow me?... HAS to aggress against property through taxation, and against person through coercive monopoly on force. Get it? If either, or both, of those characteristics are absent, it IS NOT a government.

A business CAN... follow me?... a business CAN aggress against person and property, but it does not HAVE TO in order to be a business.

Please tell me you follow, because I simply can't make it any clearer.

This pretty much proves you are far too committed to your ideology to make an objective analysis.

What? It's as if we're having seperate conversations, I have no idea what relevance this comment has to the statement you have quoted.

 

[Elutherian]

Tried to edit this in previous post, to GoldenBoy, but the time expired.

The only reason, in 2008, countries flocked to the treasury was because it was the only feasable action to take at the time. Today, two years later, the opposite is happening. Why? Because the realization of our economic system is setting in. This is true in Asia more than anywhere else.

 

[Kushinator]

Because I don't have immediate access to the information in order to make both of those equations, I'll let you fill me in on the details.

I did some quick research and was not surprised to see that Japan has been purchasing gold, while I was also unsurprised to see that China and Japan have ceased buying U.S. Debt. This has much to do with the Yen's current value to gold.

Japan goes for gold | 01 September 2010 | www.commodityonline.com

Japan and China Stop Buying US Debt

Incorrect! The BOJ has recently began buying equities as a means of pushing investors into risk. Your sources are both opinion pieces, and do not represent the financial reality.

Because the Yen is currently valued above gold in the foriegn exchange market says nothing of Japan's currency devaluation overall, or inflation. In the modern, complex global economy, matter hadly ever are the way they seem. The laws of the market, however, will always overpower the financial trickery of central bankers and clueless economists like Paul Krugman.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/iet/japan/japan.pdf

Japan Says It Won’t Join Currency Devaluation Race - BusinessWeek
Japan's Currency Hits a 7 Month High

Again, you have a speculative opinion and nothing else.

I agree with your first sentence... at least in the sense of rising prices, monetary inflation has already occured... and seeing as faith in the market is beginning to pick up, as is shown with the yield curve, we are about to see demand rise. Deflation would actually be a blessing, considering the extensive amount of inflation America has experienced for the past 100 years (97%), but it won't happen if the Fed has anything to say about it.

This does not make sense. Increased demand leads to increased inflation, hence the goal of the Fed's recent actions. Low to stagnant inflation is heavily correlated to unemployment levels higher than the natural rate.

You are saying it would be good for a heavily indebted nation such as the US to pay interest payments with stronger dollars. Maybe if you are not looking out for your best interest. Deflation equates to a fall in monetary velocity; not a good thing if you own anything of value like a house, 401k, etc.... You must be a kid with nothing to lose!

Germany and Zimbabwe aren't simialar at all to each other in economic circumstances, the only factor they have in common is extreme monetary expansion. This is something the Federal Reserve is currently doing at a greater rate than we have ever seen.

Creating excess bank reserves is not the same as printing money; as monetary creation is created in banks (via lending). There is no reason to believe the Fed cannot drain reserves via open market operations as unemployment and inflation expectations change the equation of the Taylor Rule.

I still maintain it will be the end result. The next crash will, more than likely, be the last. Unlike Japan, we cannot rely on simialar circumstances to keep us out of hyperinflation.

You have yet to explain how Japan continues to suffer from deflation, and how it is negatively impacting their economy. They have been easing for more than 10 years, and still, the Yen continues to rise vs all currencies. The answer is of course quite simple, but you will have to step outside your ideological framework.

"Financial Dark Matter". LOL, Keynesians. Dark Matter seems to be just another idiotic effort to disguise the facts, like coming into the office without shaving so the boss will think you've been at work all night. That is what happens when people get desperate; they invent fantastic stories and far-fetched explanations.

Explain a continuation of the current account deficit (more than $4 trillion since 2000) and a positive net foreign income during this time. If the world is lending us money in obscene amounts, how can net factor payments not only remain positive, but near a constant.

I don't want to learn how to create derivatives, which go part in parcel with the financial crisis, nor am I interested in investing in another fiat currency simply because it's falling at a slower rate than the fiat currency this government prints.

Which means you are driven by ideology and not profit. Reminds me of religioneace

 

[Kushinator]

Tried to edit this in previous post, to GoldenBoy, but the time expired.

The only reason, in 2008, countries flocked to the treasury was because it was the only feasable action to take at the time. Today, two years later, the opposite is happening. Why? Because the realization of our economic system is setting in. This is true in Asia more than anywhere else.

No, because the fear of a full scale financial collapse has greatly diminished. rof

 

[Elutherian]

Incorrect! The BOJ has recently began buying equities as a means of pushing investors into risk. Your sources are both opinion pieces, and do not represent the financial reality.

While the pieces include opinion, the fact that Japan and China have stopped buying U.S. Debt remains. Perhaps you would be so kind as to post a link to support your claim.

Again, you have a speculative opinion and nothing else.

I have facts, followed by speculative opinion, one which I do not even agree with. You would do well to post links proving mine wrong, rather than simply claim their innacuracy. Your words are as fiat as your currency.

This does not make sense. Increased demand leads to increased inflation, hence the goal of the Fed's recent actions. Low to stagnant inflation is heavily correlated to unemployment levels higher than the natural rate.

I am well aware that Bernanke wishes to increase inflation, which will raise the cost of living, which will in turn stymy spending, which will lead to less money in the hands of business, which creates more unemployment, not less of it.

You would do well to think these things through, rather than simply repeat axioms out of a public school economics hand-book. Bernanke would do well to abandon his failed economic theories.

You are saying it would be good for a heavily indebted nation such as the US to pay interest payments with stronger dollars. Maybe if you are not looking out for your best interest. Deflation equates to a fall in monetary velocity; not a good thing if you own anything of value like a house, 401k, etc.... You must be a kid with nothing to lose!

I think the U.S. Government should default on it's debts, but that's for another discussion. You say I wish to create a fall in monetary velocity, I say you wish to lessen the purchasing value of money hard-earned by the people, that is a form of theft. Perhaps you could explain in greater detail how an increase in the value of dollars, and thus a decrease in the cost of living, would be a bad thing for the average citizen.

Creating excess bank reserves is not the same as printing money; as monetary creation is created in banks (via lending). There is no reason to believe the Fed cannot drain reserves via open market operations as unemployment and inflation expectations change the equation of the Taylor Rule.

The Taylor Rule? Jesus, we're pulling out all the stops now aren't we? lol

Draining resources? Via open market operations? What?

You are correct that monetary expansion occurs in the banks themselves, through lending. The Federal Reserve shores up those reserves by printing more dollars. Therein lies the problem.

You have yet to explain how Japan continues to suffer from deflation, and how it is negatively impacting their economy. They have been easing for more than 10 years, and still, the Yen continues to rise vs all currencies. The answer is of course quite simple, but you will have to step outside your ideological framework.

I think Japan is well on it's way to a recovery, especially as it's dumps the dollar in favor of gold. I don't see deflation as a bad thing, and I'm glad Japan is beginning to change course, including it's abandonment of the 0% rate of interest, and dumping of toxic assets.

Which means you are driven by ideology and not profit. Reminds me of religioneace

Yes, I'm driven by doing what is right as opposed to what is profitable to me... how horrible of me.

 

[Elutherian]

No, because the fear of a full scale financial collapse has greatly diminished. rof

I'm sure it has. No one saw the previous collapse coming, except Austrians. No one saw the collapse of Bretton-Woods coming, except Austrians. So it does not surprise me that no one sees the inevitable collapse of this phony system coming, except Austrians.

Though I will say Asian countries, inadvertantly or not, are being very wise in their recent practices... most of the time at least.

There's no accurate prediction to be made on exactly when it will happen, only speculation. I speculate it will be very soon.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

I'm sure it has. No one saw the previous collapse coming, except Austrians. No one saw the collapse of Bretton-Woods coming, except Austrians. So it does not surprise me that no one sees the inevitable collapse of this phony system coming, except Austrians.

There's no accurate prediction to be made on exactly when it will happen, only speculation. I speculate it will be very soon.

Alot of non austrians predicted the previous collaspe, alot of people see the current crisis as still ongoing and not part of a new potential collapse

 

[Elutherian]

Alot of non austrians predicted the previous collaspe, alot of people see the current crisis as still ongoing and not part of a new potential collapse

Names? Links?

I do agree with your last assertion. However, Bernanke and co. have already declared the recession over.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Names? Links?

I do agree with your last assertion. However, Bernanke and co. have already declared the recession over.

Roubini, Jim Sinclair, Mike Whitney, etc

Pleny of people saw the housing bubble for what it was, the real reasons behind the bubble, (fed policies ) who are not Austrians economically.

Anyone with a rational sense of how economies work along with a reasonable sense of finance would have seen it coming along at least in 2005, 2006 at the latest

 

[Elutherian]

Roubini, Jim Sinclair, Mike Whitney, etc

Pleny of people saw the housing bubble for what it was, the real reasons behind the bubble, (fed policies ) who are not Austrians economically.

Anyone with a rational sense of how economies work along with a reasonable sense of finance would have seen it coming along at least in 2005, 2006 at the latest

Fair enough.

Bernanke and Geithner sure as hell didn't see it.