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A liberal for the death penality

ashley.hunt60

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I'm typically a model democrat, no war, pro-choice, pro-health care reform, ect... But I'm for the death penalty. Not out of revenge, but out of necessity. I don't believe that killing a killer makes the world right(an eye for an eye leaves the world blind), but we spend so much money to keep people who show no signs of ever being rehabilitated alive in prison for the rest of their lives. I would reserve the death penalty to repeat offenders of violent felonies, and have it carried out all within a year of their sentence. Honestly, I feel bad for violent murderers, something obviously went wrong with them, but I feel that if there is no hope for them, that they cannot be released back into the world, it's back to spare them life in prison and tax-payer dollars and end them.
 

Ikari

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You do know it costs way more money to kill someone than it does to jail them for life, right?
 

Aunt Spiker

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LOL - only a prisoner sentenced to death can fall victim to the menial insult of their life being considered "yay or nay" purely based on cost. . . on the pros and cons list of why NOT to knock off someone - cost shouldn't BE an issue UNLESS there's really no other reason for them to stick around.

I'm sure it's cheaper to let granny go than keep her on life support - but MANY opt for her to stay around no matter what the cost.
What if that 'it's cheaper' argument leaches out into other arguments - such as healthcare and government spending. I thought for SURE that people didn't care about money when ti came to life and death . . . but suddenly, in this one thing, people do lean on it like it's the only thing keeping them from smacking the ground!

Whenever something costs so much money that people can then use that to argue it's inefficient - it's time to turn the process over the the more financially savvy and money-managing types like myself. I'm sure there's waste in there somewhere that can be tamed and cut back to bring the costs down. :shrug:

I consider it this way:
What is the purpose of keeping someone alive and in prison if they're certain to never leave?

In my world being a productive and law abiding citizen is extremely important - such people are worth a fight when it comes to life and death (such as health, etc).
NOT being a productive and law abiding citizen when you've earned the death penalty for yourself (or life in prison) sorta knocks you off the importance list for me.
 
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samsmart

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I consider it this way:
What is the purpose of keeping someone alive and in prison if they're certain to never leave?

Because they may not have committed the crime they're being sentenced to death for, and you can't take back killing someone who's innocent.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Because they may not have committed the crime they're being sentenced to death for, and you can't take back killing someone who's innocent.

Now - supporting the death penalty is in no way suggesting that our system is functioning at it's best - or is remotely effective of efficient. From other threads on this issue I've debated that our system is archaic, at best. . .I fully support a complete overhaul.

I also believe that we sentence people to death for non-deserving crimes . . . and vise versa.

What I think people should be sentenced to death for: imprisonment and torture of the victim before murdering, and mass murder . . . and that's about it.

How many people on death row, do you think, are there WRONGFULLY and are actually innocent? Just who is currently ON death row that you feel might possibly be wrongfully convicted? Surely, if you use something as a reason to be against something, you have a stellar example.

In a case in which there is remote evidence that they might be innocent I think it shouldn't be ok'd. I think it should only be instituted when there's 100% proof and it's undeniable that they did their heinous crime.

Here's a good source - pdf - for facts about who/when/where/what/why/how
http://www.naacpldf.org/content/pdf/pubs/drusa/DRUSA_Winter_2007.pdf
 

RyrineaHaruno

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Coughs I am a Liberal who supports the death penalty, since I say if they are guilty of the crime that is capital punishment worthy, and I'd say hang'em, because they don't deserve to live.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Now, riddle me this - *why* would it be unusual for someone to be pro-choice *and* support the death penalty, anyway?
 

Korimyr the Rat

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Now, riddle me this - *why* would it be unusual for someone to be pro-choice *and* support the death penalty, anyway?

Simple demographics. That's just not the way it breaks down normally.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Simple demographics. That's just not the way it breaks down normally.

*cannot comprehend that*
Nor can I comprehend pro-life people being pro-death penalty, either.
Why do demographics not make logical sense?

Ah - we're humans, that's why. Shucks. . . I thought *I* was losing or a second, there.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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I consider it this way:
What is the purpose of keeping someone alive and in prison if they're certain to never leave?

In my world being a productive and law abiding citizen is extremely important - such people are worth a fight when it comes to life and death (such as health, etc).
NOT being a productive and law abiding citizen when you've earned the death penalty for yourself (or life in prison) sorta knocks you off the importance list for me.

I agree with this viewpoint. The purpose of prison should be to rehabilitate criminals so that they can rejoin society. If someone can't or won't be rehabilitated, there's no reason to keep them alive and they certainly shouldn't be kept with the prisoners that we intend to release back into society.

Because they may not have committed the crime they're being sentenced to death for, and you can't take back killing someone who's innocent.

Can't give a person ten years of their life back, either.
 
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Sov

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Simple demographics. That's just not the way it breaks down normally.
Or the way it breaks down stereotypically, and reality doesn't fit the stereotypes so well.
 

Dittohead not!

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Logically, liberal thinkers should be the ones in favor of the death penalty, and conservatives against it. Conservatives are supposed to be for limiting the power of government, correct? Why, then, would they be in favor of giving that same government the power to put people to death for any reason? Liberals, on the other hand, are for bigger, more inclusive government powers, which, logically, would include the death penalty.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Exactly - so this just brings focus to our faulty correction system, really - if our system was relatively on par and more successful at *correcting* problems then there'd be less people serving life-sentences and less people sentenced to death.

I read through this site and found this interesting:
65.0% had a prior felony conviction at the time of the murder.
08.4% had a prior homicide conviction at the time of the murder.
07.8% had criminal charges pending at the time of the murder.
26.7% were on probation or parole at the time of the murder.
4.9% were incarcerated or had escaped from incarceration.
14% had accumulated more than one death sentence.
22% were married, 21% divorced, and 03% widowed.
54% were never married.
46% were high school/GED graduates.
39% were under the age of 25 at arrest; 1.9% are under 25 now.
0.2% were 60+ years at arrest; 4.2% are 60+ years now.
The average age was 42 years. (27 at sentencing)

These two bolded statistics highly the main issue for me. . . there isn't enough reform to deter people from future crime post conviction/release after time served and there isn't enough care and consideration to the stability and condition of people before they're released on parole.
 

Sov

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Logically, liberal thinkers should be the ones in favor of the death penalty, and conservatives against it. Conservatives are supposed to be for limiting the power of government, correct? Why, then, would they be in favor of giving that same government the power to put people to death for any reason? Liberals, on the other hand, are for bigger, more inclusive government powers, which, logically, would include the death penalty.
Yeah, these terms are really all fraught with confusion as to the meanings. For the most part, people who call themselves liberals today are not particularly inspired by liberal philosophy ala Locke, but are rather authoritarian progressives. On the other hand most avowed conservatives, although they may talk a good game, are really only for limiting government when they dislike it.

It's worth noting that while Bill Clinton is often called a liberal, during his presidency the death penalty was expanded to cover fifty new crimes.
 

Ikari

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Coughs I am a Liberal who supports the death penalty, since I say if they are guilty of the crime that is capital punishment worthy, and I'd say hang'em, because they don't deserve to live.

So...when the **** did you become god? Cause I was pretty damned sure I was next in line for that job.
 

mac

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I oppose the death penalty. Not because I feel murderers and rapists don't deserve it, but because it drags society as a whole down to their level. I would much prefer it they be sentenced to life in a third world style prison. No food, clothing, or anything else provided. Let them live in the world they try to create for us.
 

spud_meister

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I oppose the death penalty. I would much prefer it they be sentenced to life in a third world style prison. No food, clothing, or anything else provided. Let them live in the world they try to create for us.

that i agree with.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Yeah, these terms are really all fraught with confusion as to the meanings. For the most part, people who call themselves liberals today are not particularly inspired by liberal philosophy ala Locke, but are rather authoritarian progressives. On the other hand most avowed conservatives, although they may talk a good game, are really only for limiting government when they dislike it.

It's worth noting that while Bill Clinton is often called a liberal, during his presidency the death penalty was expanded to cover fifty new crimes.

Hmm - while researching and learning more about this that you stated . . .I read this and was bothered by it:

Elimination of inmate education
One of the more controversial provisions of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act overturned a section of the Higher Education Act of 1965 permitting prison inmates to receive a Pell Grant for postsecondary education while incarcerated. The amendment is as follows:
“(a) IN GENERAL- Section 401(b)(8) of the Higher Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 1070a(b)(8)) is amended to read as follows:
(8) No basic grant shall be awarded under this subpart to any individual who is incarcerated in any Federal or State penal institution.'.”

Because of this, the VCCLEA effectively eliminated the ability of lower income prison inmates to receive college educations during their term of imprisonment, thus ensuring the education level of inmates remains unimproved over the period of their incarceration.

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (passed in 1994) was written by Vice President Biden.

The Federal Penalty Act expansion is part of this bill.
 
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Aunt Spiker

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I oppose the death penalty. Not because I feel murderers and rapists don't deserve it, but because it drags society as a whole down to their level. I would much prefer it they be sentenced to life in a third world style prison. No food, clothing, or anything else provided. Let them live in the world they try to create for us.

That makes no sense.

Life is so important and worth protecting that you'll just give someone an absolutely crappy one - rather than just be done with them? How is that any better or less "bad" than a death-sentence?
 

mac

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That makes no sense.

Life is so important and worth protecting that you'll just give someone an absolutely crappy one - rather than just be done with them? How is that any better or less "bad" than a death-sentence?

I wouldn't be giving it to them, they'd be bringing it on themselves. Why should society be forced to support someone that attempts to destroy it?
 

Aunt Spiker

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I wouldn't be giving it to them, they'd be bringing it on themselves. Why should society be forced to support someone that attempts to destroy it?

Exactly - so why even keep them around?
Just *snip* done - or *boom* done, whatever sound effect you choose for the snuffing of a life.
 

mac

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Exactly - so why even keep them around?
Just *snip* done - or *boom* done, whatever sound effect you choose for the snuffing of a life.

I understand the sentiment, completely, and the reactionary side of me agrees with you.....but we can hardly encourage non-violence as a society if we don't follow it ourselves.
 

Aunt Spiker

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I understand the sentiment, completely, and the reactionary side of me agrees with you.....but we can hardly encourage non-violence as a society if we don't follow it ourselves.

Ah, there you go - that's why we're on a different page.

Our country has no goal of being non-violent or of being 'fair' in any way. Our country is rooted in division, grounded in unrest and stands on looking-glass liberties. . . and when these values bite us in the ass we backpeddle like a mother****er.
 

mac

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Ah, there you go - that's why we're on a different page.

Our country has no goal of being non-violent or of being 'fair' in any way. Our country is rooted in division, grounded in unrest and stands on looking-glass liberties. . . and when these values bite us in the ass we backpeddle like a mother****er.

I remember hearing something about change recently.......
 
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