A letter to a christian homophobe (1 Viewer)

[Auftrag]

This is great....It was a letter sent to some American radio host who had said that homosexuality was an abomination because it said so in Leviticus. Someone wrote into her. The letter was then posted on the net...

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Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have
learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with
as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that (Leviticus 18:22) clearly states it
to be an abomination.

End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of
the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in (Exodus 21:7). In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. (Lev. 25:44) states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 35:2) clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. (Lev. 21:20) states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by (Lev.19:27). How should they die?

9. I know from (Lev.11:6- that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates (Lev. 19:19) by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you
can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your devoted fan, Jim

 

[Captain America]

I have seen this "letter" before on various forums and it has always been very interesting and it gives a shiny example how some people tend to "cherry-pick" portions of the bible to validate their opinions when logic and reason do not prevail. Little do they realize, regardless of what verse, chapter or quote they use in their debate arsenal, and regardless how they spin it into their ideology, their source has about as much validity and authority as a DC comic book.

But it's not just with bible users. It is a common denominator in too many religions to count. Look at Islam! :shock:

At least, for the most part, the bible users are usually just simple, good hearted people who want some validation of their beliefs and the bible, when twisted just right, can give them that (in their minds.:roll: ) And, although they do tend to slip into their fairy tale twilight zones on occassion, during any given debate, at least they are not out blowing people up. There are some, however, that I sometimes wish would. (Fred Phelps comes to mind. :roll: )

 

[Apostle13]

The letter is retarded... In the very least based by ignorance. Jesus did away with the law by His fulfillment thereof. All of the scriptures are Old Testament references... While they do allow us insight to the character and nature of God, many laws and traditions are either now with remedy, or made obsolete by means of GRACE. Sin is by no means sin no more but, where sin abounds Grace abounds all the more... For ours is a merciful God. Just and True... He is yet only one heart prayer away.

 

[doughgirl]

Apostle you are right when you said,

“The letter is retarded... In the very least based by ignorance. Jesus did away with the law by His fulfillment thereof. All of the scriptures are Old Testament references... While they do allow us insight to the character and nature of God, many laws and traditions are either now with remedy, or made obsolete by means of GRACE. Sin is by no means sin no more but, where sin abounds Grace abounds all the more... For ours is a merciful God. Just and True... He is yet only one heart prayer away.”

Unbelievers love to use this letter to defend homosexuality. But look deeper ….

Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience or else imposed a “curse” (see Gal. 3:10,13).
If the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, as it did before Christ came, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what he came “to do.” On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish what he came to accomplish, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal today. Jesus said very clearly that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose.

The scriptures say this,

"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." {Galatians 3:24,25}

The Scriptures show that His death brought this law to a close.

"Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." {Colossians 2:14}

It is plainly clear in the Bible in both NEW AND OLD TESTAMENTS that homosexuality is a sin. It is plainly clear that adultery,bestiality are sins as well.

The God of the Old Testament is not a different God than in the New Testament. They are one and the same and homosexuality is condemned in BOTH Testaments as a great sin against a Holy God.

What did Jesus say about marriage?

“Have ye not read, that HE which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause (that they are male and female) shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together (a man and a wife), let not man put asunder.”

Did Jesus once in the Bible ever mention same sex unions as being blessed as being the way God intended creation to be?

Jesus backed up the book of Genesis. He speaks of creation of the world (Mark 13:19), of man (Matthew 19:4), and of the marriage of Adam and Eve (Matthew 19:5-6). He also spoke of the destruction of the Sodomites’ cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in (Luke 17:28-32; Matthew 10:15; 11:24; Mark 6:11).
You can’t separate the Old Testament and the New Testament and the Old Testament God and the Lord Jesus because Jesus is the Creator of all and the very one who instituted marriage. Marriage is the picture of Christ and His Bride (the Church).

“31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery (or revelation of God): but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.” Ephesians 5:31-33

God in the beginning established His directive Will and made them male and female. He did not create a man for Adam, He created a woman. And there is no passage in the Old Testament or the New where God says any other union is blessed. But rather is calls same sex unions as abominations.

The “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality” argument is ridiculous on face value. Jesus never talked about pedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, rape, wife beating or any number of other sins. Those who use this line are trying to defend sin period.

Doesn't’t matter how you claim you were born, your body was created with reproductive organs that ONLY WORK WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX.

I would challenge anyone to site scripture where Christ talks about homosexuality as being ok. Or any sin for that matter. There is strong condemnation of ALL sexual sin in the Bible, whether it’s homosexual OR heterosexual.

The important thing to remember is this….

Christianity does NOT teach us to hate the homosexual or any other sinner for that matter. We are to love them. If you read the Bible you would know that the only sin that will keep you from going to heaven, is to deny Christ, it's NOT homosexuality, not adultery, not stealing…..etc.

Those who endorse homosexuality want me and others like me to say homosexuality is ok with God. I see NO proof by scriptures that that it is acceptable. For a church to accept homosexuals, to love them, minister to them and help them find deliverance from bondage is one thing. For a church to accept homosexual behavior in the congregation or anywhere else and imply that it is normal is a surrender to scriptures and political correctness. I guess today however it’s more important to stand on what the world says is the truth, then to stand on God’s truth.

I stand on Gods truth. AMEN AMEN :smile:

 

[Indy]

Jesus backed up the book of Genesis. He speaks of creation of the world (Mark 13:19)

I don't really care to debate the letter (since if you will never convince somebody OUT of their religeon) but I did have an issue with what you said here. Let me quote that particular verse:

Passage Mark 13:19:
19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

So he said god created the world. This does in no way "back up" the book of genisis, it only imply's that god created the world, whether through the big bang, out of adrunken stupor, or just for the heck of it to see how fast he could do it. To try to use this passage to claim truth in the 6 days theory is just silly. In fact, I don't believe ANYBODY ever actually "backed up" the creation story found in genisis.

 

[Apostle13]

Unbelievers love to use this letter to defend homosexuality. But look deeper ….

Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience or else imposed a “curse” (see Gal. 3:10,13).
If the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, as it did before Christ came, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what he came “to do.” On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish what he came to accomplish, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal today. Jesus said very clearly that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose.

The scriptures say this,

The Scriptures show that His death brought this law to a close.





It is plainly clear in the Bible in both NEW AND OLD TESTAMENTS that homosexuality is a sin. It is plainly clear that adultery,bestiality are sins as well.

The God of the Old Testament is not a different God than in the New Testament. They are one and the same and homosexuality is condemned in BOTH Testaments as a great sin against a Holy God.

What did Jesus say about marriage?



Did Jesus once in the Bible ever mention same sex unions as being blessed as being the way God intended creation to be?

Jesus backed up the book of Genesis. He speaks of creation of the world (Mark 13:19), of man (Matthew 19:4), and of the marriage of Adam and Eve (Matthew 19:5-6). He also spoke of the destruction of the Sodomites’ cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in (Luke 17:28-32; Matthew 10:15; 11:24; Mark 6:11).
You can’t separate the Old Testament and the New Testament and the Old Testament God and the Lord Jesus because Jesus is the Creator of all and the very one who instituted marriage. Marriage is the picture of Christ and His Bride (the Church).



God in the beginning established His directive Will and made them male and female. He did not create a man for Adam, He created a woman. And there is no passage in the Old Testament or the New where God says any other union is blessed. But rather is calls same sex unions as abominations.

The “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality” argument is ridiculous on face value. Jesus never talked about pedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, rape, wife beating or any number of other sins. Those who use this line are trying to defend sin period.

Doesn't’t matter how you claim you were born, your body was created with reproductive organs that ONLY WORK WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX.

I would challenge anyone to site scripture where Christ talks about homosexuality as being ok. Or any sin for that matter. There is strong condemnation of ALL sexual sin in the Bible, whether it’s homosexual OR heterosexual.

The important thing to remember is this….

Christianity does NOT teach us to hate the homosexual or any other sinner for that matter. We are to love them. If you read the Bible you would know that the only sin that will keep you from going to heaven, is to deny Christ, it's NOT homosexuality, not adultery, not stealing…..etc.

Those who endorse homosexuality want me and others like me to say homosexuality is ok with God. I see NO proof by scriptures that that it is acceptable. For a church to accept homosexuals, to love them, minister to them and help them find deliverance from bondage is one thing. For a church to accept homosexual behavior in the congregation or anywhere else and imply that it is normal is a surrender to scriptures and political correctness. I guess today however it’s more important to stand on what the world says is the truth, then to stand on God’s truth.

I stand on Gods truth. AMEN AMEN :smile:

I agree wholly with what you say... I was in a slight of hurry so I could not fully articulate... Might have come across as one who condones homosexuality, I don't know, but is not the case... Neither will I forcefully condemn it... I do recognize it as sin and at the highest level as it is sexual sin and no less an abomination as was in the days of old. My emphasis was on that which is "GRACE" provided us from the blood and life sacrifice of our Lord... As you know we are to "Hate the sin yet Love the sinner" It is not meet that one saved by grace willfully, blatantly continue in such sin "to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace". The Old testament Laws are set forth like unto a mirror for all of humanity... Even those yet without the Spirit of God residing within them bear a witness by their very own God given conscience. These laws are purposed not only for us to see who we are not, but also to appreciate and more clearly see, who Christ is.

 

[doughgirl]

“In fact, I don't believe ANYBODY ever actually "backed up" the creation story found in Genesis.”

Oh you are wrong.

Here are a few quotes from well known evolutionists.

Professor Louis T. More said, “The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone.” (Louis T. More, The Dogma of Evolution (Princeton:University Press, 1925), 160.)

Professor D.M.S Watson, a famous evolutionist, made the remarkable observation that evolution itself is a theory universally accepted,

”not because it has been observed to occur or can be proven by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative-special creation-is clearly incredible.” (Quoted in Henry M. Morris, Scientific Creationism (San Diego:Creation-Life Publishers, 1974), 8.)

Sir Arthur Keith said,

“Evolution is unproved and unproveable. We believe it because the only alternative is special creation, which is unthinkable.” (Quoted in Meldan, Why We Believe in Creation, 8.)

'The theory of evolution is totally inadequate to explain the origin and manifestation of the inorganic world.' "—Sir John Ambrose Fleming, F.R.S., quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 91 [discoverer of the thermionic valve].

"I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it."—H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138.

"The hold of the evolutionary paradigm [theoretical system] is so powerful that an idea which is more like a principle of medieval astrology than a serious twentieth century scientific theory has become a reality for evolutionary biologists."—Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), p. 306 [Australian molecular biologist].

"I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning, consequently assumed it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption . . The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics; he is also concerned to prove there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do . . For myself, as no doubt for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom."—Aldous Huxley, "Confessions of a Professed Atheist," Report: Perspective on the News, Vol. 3, June 1966, p. 19 [grandson of evolutionist Thomas Huxley, Darwin's closest friend and promoter, and brother of evolutionist Julian Huxley. Aldous Huxley was one of the most influential liberal writers of the 20th century].

"Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."—
Robert Jastrow, The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (1981), p. 19.

Evolution is a theory not a fact. How ironic that it is taught in our school systems as fact and creationism is not taught at all.

People blindly believe evolution because the textbooks say it is a fact.

"In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to `bend' their observations to fit in with it."

—H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138.

"What is it [evolution] based upon? Upon nothing whatever but faith, upon belief in the reality of the unseen—belief in the fossils that cannot be produced, belief in the embryological experiments that refuse to come off. It is faith unjustified by works."
—Arthur N. Field.

More....
http://evolution-facts.org/introductory_scientists_speak_about_evolution_1.htm

Many of the worlds history making scientists had no hesitation in endorsing the Bible and creationism...

Robert Boyle the father of modern chemistry
Michael Faraday who discovered electromagnetic induction
Johannes Kepler – astronomer
Carolus Linnaeus the father of biological taxonomy
James Clerk Maxwell the father of modern physics
Niels Steno the father of modern geology
William Thornson who established the Kelvin Scale of absolute temperatures
Sir Francis Bacon philosopher
Sir Issac Newton discovered the law of gravitation




Another good website. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/astronauts.html
Modern astronauts that believe in god and creationism

ALL SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION ?………that is a lie.
I think one thing is clear however. Believing in athiestic evolution demands an enormous amount of faith. Evolution teaches that life came from non-life, that ethics and morality came from amorality and that our human intelligence came from irrationality...come on

 

[Indy]

Oh you are wrong.

How so? Where in the bible does it specifically back up the creation story? (6 days to be more specific)

 

[Peccavi]

I feel we have strayed a long way form the point here, that Christians tend to pick and mix from the bible to suit there points. The yays and nays of evolution are nothing to do with this. The point of the letter was to show the many things commanded in the bible that would never be considered acceptable and as such are passed over.

As a quote from the New Testament was asked for, I must oblige

Romans 14.14 : I am absolutely convinced, as a Christian, that nothing is impure in itself; only if a man considers a particular thing impure, then to him it is impure.

Clearly showing that all things 'impure', including homosexuality, are up for debate. I must say I missed this quote in all your condemnations.

 

[Apostle13]

I feel we have strayed a long way form the point here, that Christians tend to pick and mix from the bible to suit there points. The yays and nays of evolution are nothing to do with this. The point of the letter was to show the many things commanded in the bible that would never be considered acceptable and as such are passed over.

As a quote from the New Testament was asked for, I must oblige

Romans 14.14 : I am absolutely convinced, as a Christian, that nothing is impure in itself; only if a man considers a particular thing impure, then to him it is impure.

Clearly showing that all things 'impure', including homosexuality, are up for debate. I must say I missed this quote in all your condemnations.

That is so completely taken out of text... "Pick and miss," indeed...:bs
Romans 14 (New International Version)
14:As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15:If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16: Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17:For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18:because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19:Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20: Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21:It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
It is talking concerning foods/dietary differences... Jews as in Kosher... Gentiles... Like pork, but not sausage:doh

 

[Peccavi]

That is so completely taken out of text... "Pick and miss," indeed...:bs
Romans 14 (New International Version)
14:As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15:If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16: Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17:For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18:because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19:Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20: Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21:It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
It is talking concerning foods/dietary differences... Jews as in Kosher... Gentiles... Like pork, but not sausage:doh

Sure, taken at face value it is merely about food, but look at it metaphorically, you don’t look at the parable of the sheep and goats as talking solely about sheep and goats, do you?

Which again harks back to the point, parts of the bible are bastardised at will to prove a point, the above quote could even be used for and against homosexuality

For: 16: Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.

Against: 15: If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love.

The one thing I learnt in passing my Religious Studies class was how to memorise five set bible quotes and apply them to any given situation. How can anybody base their entire faith on a book that relies on interpretation and 'cherry picking' to give a clear moral veiw?

 

[The Butcher]

ALL SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION ?………that is a lie.
I think one thing is clear however. Believing in athiestic evolution demands an enormous amount of faith. Evolution teaches that life came from non-life, that ethics and morality came from amorality and that our human intelligence came from irrationality...come on

Evolution does not claim that life came from non-life. Evolution makes a theoretical assumption of how human beings came into their current physiological state. When you get down to the bare bones of the issue – creationism and evolution are 2 entirely different issues.

The average proponent of creationism thinks that if evolution is found to be disjointed or unsubstantiated, that by default – creationism is correct. That if evolution is found to be a crock of crap, creationism wins by default. Never mind the fact that the bible was originally translated from a language that does not directly translate to English. Never mind the fact the bible is open to interpretation. Never mind the fact that information is still being discovered today that flies right in the face of Christianity (Judas scriptures anyone?)

Tis also funny how people like to attack the thousands forms of scientific information out there in an attempt to debunk it yet remain unresponsive when they cite their single source where they pull their information from (emphasis on “single” source).