• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A leftist progressive's paradise

TheHammer

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
1,522
Reaction score
334
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
“A leftist progressive's paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed
employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education,
free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and
only law enforcement has guns. And believe it or not,
such a place does indeed already exist: - It's called
Prison". Sheriff Joe Arpaio
 

CMPancake

No gods, no masters.
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
6,250
Reaction score
6,247
Location
Tacoma
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
Save for the weapons, Sheriff also described the US Military. I guess this means you have something against all those free loaders in Army Greens?
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,336
Reaction score
5,358
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
“A leftist progressive's paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed
employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education,
free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and
only law enforcement has guns. And believe it or not,
such a place does indeed already exist: - It's called
Prison". Sheriff Joe Arpaio

I really hope you're not seriously citing Joe Arpaio as a hero of intellectual thought. Good lord.


As an aside though maybe if we did a better job of insuring people had better access to these things outside of prison we wouldn't have to lock so many people up. Essentially what you're saying is that life in prison is better than what many people can hope for living free, so why should they be afraid of being sent to prison? For millions of African American men in this country it seems like drug dealing and other crimes are the only routes to an upper class life outside of basketball or rapping. Maybe if we gave more of them access to the same tools that whites have and stop cutting off ever legitimate route to prosperity we wouldn't have as many problems with crime.
 
Last edited:

Dittohead not!

master political analyst
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
51,491
Reaction score
33,554
Location
The Golden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
“A leftist progressive's paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed
employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education,
free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and
only law enforcement has guns. And believe it or not,
such a place does indeed already exist: - It's called
Prison". Sheriff Joe Arpaio

and, who are these "leftist progressives" who think everything should be free?

Is believing that we, like the rest of the world, could spend half as much as we do on health care and have a better system than we do now tantamount to expecting health care to be free?

Is the thought that we might actually come out ahead by subsidizing post secondary education, like we already do secondary education, expecting everything to be free?

I've looked and looked, and still can't find any of those leftist progressives who believe in making the country one huge commune where everything is free.
 

TheHammer

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
1,522
Reaction score
334
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Save for the weapons, Sheriff also described the US Military. I guess this means you have something against all those free loaders in Army Greens?

Oh! On the contrary. The Sheriff's truism in no way describes the military and "free" stuff. The military delivers a productive service for their perks. Military personal actually have a job and earn their keep. Thinking before you defend leftist progressivism might be a good idea, huh?
 

eohrnberger

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
44,253
Reaction score
28,814
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Reading this thread title, I immediate thought of Venezuela.
 

TheHammer

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
1,522
Reaction score
334
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I really hope you're not seriously citing Joe Arpaio as a hero of intellectual thought. Good lord.

I’ll look forward to your rational debunking of the truth of the Sheriff’s observation.


As an aside though maybe if we did a better job of insuring people had better access to these things outside of prison we wouldn't have to lock so many people up.

Define “better access.” We claim to be a free country, what more access is needed?

Essentially what you're saying is that life in prison is better than what many people can hope for living free,


Actually Sheriff Joe said it, not I. I simply am amused at the irony and truth of his statement.
 

TheHammer

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
1,522
Reaction score
334
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
and, who are these "leftist progressives" who think everything should be free?

Is believing that we, like the rest of the world, could spend half as much as we do on health care and have a better system than we do now tantamount to expecting health care to be free?

Is the thought that we might actually come out ahead by subsidizing post secondary education, like we already do secondary education, expecting everything to be free?

I've looked and looked, and still can't find any of those leftist progressives who believe in making the country one huge commune where everything is free.

You haven't heard of feeling the Burn, huh?:2rofll:
 

Fenton

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
29,771
Reaction score
12,231
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I really hope you're not seriously citing Joe Arpaio as a hero of intellectual thought. Good lord.


As an aside though maybe if we did a better job of insuring people had better access to these things outside of prison we wouldn't have to lock so many people up. Essentially what you're saying is that life in prison is better than what many people can hope for living free, so why should they be afraid of being sent to prison? For millions of African American men in this country it seems like drug dealing and other crimes are the only routes to an upper class life outside of basketball or rapping. Maybe if we gave more of them access to the same tools that whites have and stop cutting off ever legitimate route to prosperity we wouldn't have as many problems with crime.

Hey Wonk, a little off topic but what happened to your " California is Killing It " thread?

Its locked for some reason.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,336
Reaction score
5,358
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Define “better access.” We claim to be a free country, what more access is needed?
Freedom heavily benefits the strong. In this country straight white christian men have been and still are by far the strongest demographic in the country. If you are one, then you have amazing access. If you are not then you will have to work ten times harder to achieve the same level of accomplishment. Access should not be a function of race, sex, or creed. As a white man myself growing up in a christian family I can tell you that my life has been a virtual cake walk up to this point, and I did nothing special to deserve this except get born into a nice situation. Certainly a parent deserves the right to give their children a head start, but there are too many minorities that are starting with such a tremendous disadvantage that to even achieve middle class status is a long shot.

Furthermore, allowing people to fall into ruin due to a few mistakes made in youth does society no good whatsoever. Having a reasonable safety net to insure people do not fall into destitution and can recover encourages risk taking, and does not get abused the way conservatives want to pretend it does. Countries like Denmark which is ranked #1 in the world for business are proof positive that economies are made stronger when their citizens have protections.



Actually Sheriff Joe said it, not I. I simply am amused at the irony and truth of his statement.

What is Ironic about this statement is that a right wing nut is proving what a government run institution is capable of providing for it's inhabitants if right wings nuts like him would simply get out of the way. Conservatives claim we can't provide all these things for millions and millions of people yet our prison system which holds millions of Americans proves otherwise. In fact if you took away the bars and let people roam free you'd find it would be even cheaper.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,336
Reaction score
5,358
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Hey Wonk, a little off topic but what happened to your " California is Killing It " thread?

Its locked for some reason.

Apparently you're not allowed to name other uses in a thread they're not participating in. Rather than simply remove those irrelevant references the moderator closed the thread. Not sure why they thought that was the right choice, but you're welcome to re-start another one.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
“A leftist progressive's paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed
employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education,
free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and
only law enforcement has guns. And believe it or not,
such a place does indeed already exist: - It's called
Prison". Sheriff Joe Arpaio

I suggest you take the quote in your signature a bit more seriously.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Remind Dittohead not of that, he can't find any leftist, progressive socialism anywhere.

When you actually learn what progressivism and democratic socialism actually are - instead of posting what you personally think they are - please come back and let us know.
 

Gaugingcatenate

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,331
Reaction score
1,939
Location
Formerly of the Southern USA, now permanently in t
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I really hope you're not seriously citing Joe Arpaio as a hero of intellectual thought. Good lord.
I would say good ol' common sense generally outranks "intellectual thought".

Common sense deals most often with the practical aspects of life, best practices, the tried and true. Intellectual thinking often wanders off the reservation, gets mired in the weeds, finding ways to make wrong somehow not only right, but sometimes even the better choice. Contemplating itself far too much to be of practical help.
 

Gaugingcatenate

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,331
Reaction score
1,939
Location
Formerly of the Southern USA, now permanently in t
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
When you actually learn what progressivism and democratic socialism actually are - instead of posting what you personally think they are - please come back and let us know.
For the inquisitive here, perhaps you could, in a few short sentences regale us with what those two might be that some of us, on this side apparently, are so far off the mark from properly understanding.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
For the inquisitive here, perhaps you could, in a few short sentences regale us with what those two might be that some of us, on this side apparently, are so far off the mark from properly understanding.

No. Because in my experience, y'all are not at all concerned about actually listening to the other side.

You go do some actual research...meaning NOT just within your right-wing echo chamber that tells you just what you want to hear, and then we'll talk.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,336
Reaction score
5,358
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
I would say good ol' common sense generally outranks "intellectual thought".
There have been millions of ideas throughout the centuries that have been considered "common sense" at one point only to be obliterated by intellectual thought. The world being flat was considered common sense. The sun revolving around the earth was commons sense. Negro's being nothing but barbarians useful only for slavery was common sense. Women being too irrational to vote was common sense. You'll find that common sense is more just common than it is actually sensical.

Common sense deals most often with the practical aspects of life, best practices, the tried and true.
No, that is what science is used for. Which is an intellectual practice. The so called "common sense" that you seem to be referring to is what we generally call prejudice, closed mindedness and bigotry. It's a belief that because things have been done a certain way and they seem to work out okay that it must remain that way forever even if better ideas come along.


Intellectual thinking often wanders off the reservation, gets mired in the weeds, finding ways to make wrong somehow not only right, but sometimes even the better choice. Contemplating itself far too much to be of practical help.

Again you operate under the assume that your closed off little "reservation" is obviously superior to the world outside of it despite your apparent fear of traveling outside of it's walls to actually find out. There is a place where they trap people into confines such as this requiring them to behave and think in away that superiors consider "common sense." It's called Prison, and you seem to be voluntarily keeping yourself in it. I pity you.
 

RetiredNSmilin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,242
Reaction score
1,985
Location
East Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I really hope you're not seriously citing Joe Arpaio as a hero of intellectual thought. Good lord.


As an aside though maybe if we did a better job of insuring people had better access to these things outside of prison we wouldn't have to lock so many people up. Essentially what you're saying is that life in prison is better than what many people can hope for living free, so why should they be afraid of being sent to prison? For millions of African American men in this country it seems like drug dealing and other crimes are the only routes to an upper class life outside of basketball or rapping. Maybe if we gave more of them access to the same tools that whites have and stop cutting off ever legitimate route to prosperity we wouldn't have as many problems with crime.

I lived and grew up in the same neighborhoods as these black folks you are talking about.

This "white privilege" you speak about I have never seen.

I have also seen black kids make bad decisions in their lives that lead to bad results.

I have also seen black kids make good decisions in their lives that led to good results.

Skin color had nothing to do with where either wound up in life.

Your post is racist, by thinking all black people in black neighborhoods are drug dealers, rappers or basketball players.

You need to spit out that Kool-Aid.
 

MrWonka

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
10,336
Reaction score
5,358
Location
Charleston, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
I lived and grew up in the same neighborhoods as these black folks you are talking about.

This "white privilege" you speak about I have never seen.
Have you seen the great wall of China? Do you ignore evidence of it's existence too?

I have also seen black kids make bad decisions in their lives that lead to bad results.

I have also seen black kids make good decisions in their lives that led to good results.

Skin color had nothing to do with where either wound up in life.

Your personal anecdotal experience is completely irrelevant when judging a larger trend, even if it wasn't clearly framed by your own racism.
 

Gaugingcatenate

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,331
Reaction score
1,939
Location
Formerly of the Southern USA, now permanently in t
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
No. Because in my experience, y'all are not at all concerned about actually listening to the other side.

You go do some actual research...meaning NOT just within your right-wing echo chamber that tells you just what you want to hear, and then we'll talk.
If you unable/unwilling to even describe what you, yourself, are... and further take no interest in explaining it to another who has asked, this after you criticized another for "not really knowing"... nah, not that interested. Besides which, I think I have it pretty well pegged without the assist.

Thanks anyhow.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
If you unable/unwilling to even describe what you, yourself, are... and further take no interest in explaining it to another who has asked, this after you criticized another for "not really knowing"... nah, not that interested. Besides which, I think I have it pretty well pegged without the assist.

Thanks anyhow.

Yeah, you have it "pretty well pegged", just like Trump has immigrants pegged, huh?

Right.

What you have are insults and prejudice. Not knowledge and understanding.
 

Gaugingcatenate

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,331
Reaction score
1,939
Location
Formerly of the Southern USA, now permanently in t
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
1. There have been millions of ideas throughout the centuries that have been considered "common sense" at one point only to be obliterated by intellectual thought. The world being flat was considered common sense. The sun revolving around the earth was commons sense. Negro's being nothing but barbarians useful only for slavery was common sense. Women being too irrational to vote was common sense. You'll find that common sense is more just common than it is actually sensical.


2. No, that is what science is used for. Which is an intellectual practice. The so called "common sense" that you seem to be referring to is what we generally call prejudice, closed mindedness and bigotry. It's a belief that because things have been done a certain way and they seem to work out okay that it must remain that way forever even if better ideas come along.




3. Again you operate under the assume that your closed off little "reservation" is obviously superior to the world outside of it despite your apparent fear of traveling outside of it's walls to actually find out. There is a place where they trap people into confines such as this requiring them to behave and think in away that superiors consider "common sense." It's called Prison, and you seem to be voluntarily keeping yourself in it. I pity you.
1. Yes, and the prevailing science, Aristotle/Ptolemy/Copernicus' was what made them think these things. And I said good ol, not bad ol, common sense, tried and true. Again, science, bad science, has brought us plenty of ill. Eugenics for one. Phrenology another. Social Darwinism yet another.

I would suggest some of what we call science today, psychology, for instance, is just a lot of intellectual navel gazing. When they themselves go back and test their studies, only 39 out of 100 are reproducible? Sad state of "intellectualism".

2. I really don't much appreciate you trying to define what I mean by common sense as prejudice, close mindedness and bigotry. What a foolish description that gives us a a bit of peak at true prejudice, close mindedness and, yes, bigotry. Common sense is what is practical, not just what has always been done. And just because something has been done a certain way for a long time, that is no reason to just discard it for the sake of change to something that is often not just unproven, but worse.

3. I have probably "traveled" as much or more than you. I think you are projecting and feel trapped inside the prison of your own style of thinking... you've no real idea about me whatsoever, and yet you are making these solid proclamations/defamations based on what... your vaunted intellectualism?

Look in the mirror.
 

soot

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
4,308
Reaction score
2,530
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
For millions of African American men in this country it seems like drug dealing and other crimes are the only routes to an upper class life outside of basketball or rapping. Maybe if we gave more of them access to the same tools that whites have and stop cutting off ever legitimate route to prosperity we wouldn't have as many problems with crime.

What opportunities do whites have that blacks lack?

And what law says that everyone is entitled to an upper middle class life?
 

Gaugingcatenate

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,331
Reaction score
1,939
Location
Formerly of the Southern USA, now permanently in t
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yeah, you have it "pretty well pegged", just like Trump has immigrants pegged, huh?

Right.

What you have are insults and prejudice. Not knowledge and understanding.
I've said nothing about Trump or his views on immigrants here. Willing to accuse me of things and unwilling to define yourself... sounds like a bit of navel gazing is in order in your instance.

We have crossed words before Glen. You didn't seem to know much about what we were talking about then, and seem to epitomize your own complaints about me now. I've made no particular insult to you here, no disparaging remarks, I only asked you to explain yourself and for that I get this bucket of hoooooie?


Thanks, but no thanks.
 
Top Bottom