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A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east....

Navy Pride

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In spite of the naysayers and doom and gloom predictions by the left in this country President Bush and his admininitration won a huge victory in the mid-east over the weekend as the people Iraq approved their Constitution
establishing a democratic government there........

This could very well go down as one the biggest victories of the Bush Administration and to President Bush's legacy........

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/17/iraq.vote.reut/index.html

constitution win

Monday, October 17, 2005; Posted: 11:28 a.m. EDT (15:28 GMT)


An insurgent stronghold embraces U.S. troops (3:23)

Iraqs middle-class citizens are losing hope (3:43)


Iraqi election officials slowly counted up to 10 million ballots from Saturday's referendum, with partial results pointing to a clear win for the new constitution.

Washington hopes the constitution will help establish Iraq as a stable democracy able to do without U.S. troops.

Officials said as many as 63 percent of eligible voters cast ballots in Saturday's election, above the 58 percent seen in January, when many Sunnis boycotted the first elections after the fall of Saddam Hussein, who is a Sunni.

Poll officials in Baghdad said they were still re-counting ballots which had been trucked to the capital under heavy security from polling stations around the country.

Adel Alami, a senior official with the electoral commission, said the process was moving forward but certified results could be days away. "It will last for several days until the results are collected from all provinces," he told Reuters.

Partial results released by local officials showed the measure had passed despite high turnout in some Sunni areas where opposition to the constitution ran strongest.

Sunnis make up just 20 percent of the population and fear the new constitution will hand control of the country and its oil resources to the Shi'ite majority and its Kurdish allies.

According to the referendum rules, a two-thirds "No" vote in three of Iraq's 18 provinces would block the constitution even if most Iraqis backed it. But by late Sunday it appeared that only two provinces had returned a potentially blocking "No" vote, making the chances of a veto remote.

Most Shiite and Kurdish-dominated provinces were running heavily in favor of the constitution. Anbar province around Ramadi was expected to strongly reject it, as was Salahaddin province, which contains Saddam's hometown of Tikrit.

The contest was closer in the northern province of Niniveh around the city of Mosul, which is split between Sunni Arabs and Kurds.

A senior Iraqi official said on Monday that while 424,00 of the province's 778,000 voters said "No" to the charter, this fell short of the two thirds necessary to reject it.

Kurdish leaders, who originally inserted the three-province veto clause to protect their own interests, have denied Arab accusations of packing Mosul with Kurdish voters.

With new parliamentary elections now set for December 15, Iraq's bitter political negotiations look likely to continue.

Last-minute concessions by Shi'ite and Kurdish leaders aimed at securing Sunni support for the document mean that many of its key clauses are open to amendment -- leaving political leaders scrambling once again to satisfy their rival constituencies
 

faminedynasty

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This constitution, many fear, is the basis of Islamic fundamentalist theocracy in Iraq. Already, armed shi'ite militias are imposing strict, fundamentalist rule over the citizens of Basra, killing women for not wearing the traditional burkas, and, in another incident, stripping a woman of her western blouse, leaving her exposed, and killing men who came to her aid. Iran is arming and funding these militias, and it seems as Shi'ite dominance increases, so will the power of these reactionary Islamist groups. And obviously, another threat is the reaction of bitter sunnis who are being pushed out of power and deprived of the national wealth. The stage for all-out civil war is being set.
 

GarzaUK

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A victory? I remember on this forum with the Iraqi January elections everyone was hailing the elections has victory, that everything was going to get better from then on - it didn't.

Is this constitution going to change anything? The Shia and the Kurds are set on making Iraq a Federal Republic making the Sunnis even more pissed off, they will fight anyone for the precious oil. My prediction is that Iraq will break up into three parts.

The Shia South will end up as an Islamic Republic - a new ally for Iran, effectively the opposite of what we want to acheive.

The Kurds want their own country, the violence might make them break off sooner seeing their is no hope for Iraq. Turkey - a Nato ally is not going to be happy with that.

The Sunnis and the Kurds will fight over oil rich Kirkuk.

The Bush Administration are always optimistic about Iraq, according to Bush everything is going to plan :roll: . They need a big reality check, because the majority American public are not buying their optimism.
 

Navy Pride

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The predictions by the naysayers from the left predicted civil war after the elections in January, this did not happen, it is no surprise that the same naysayers will predict civil war after this referundum and continue to do so evey step of the way...............

At some pont though will this does not happen they will have to admit they were wrong.........
 

Navy Pride

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GarzaUK said:
A victory? I remember on this forum with the Iraqi January elections everyone was hailing the elections has victory, that everything was going to get better from then on - it didn't.

Is this constitution going to change anything? The Shia and the Kurds are set on making Iraq a Federal Republic making the Sunnis even more pissed off, they will fight anyone for the precious oil. My prediction is that Iraq will break up into three parts.

The Shia South will end up as an Islamic Republic - a new ally for Iran, effectively the opposite of what we want to acheive.

The Kurds want their own country, the violence might make them break off sooner seeing their is no hope for Iraq. Turkey - a Nato ally is not going to be happy with that.

The Sunnis and the Kurds will fight over oil rich Kirkuk.

The Bush Administration are always optimistic about Iraq, according to Bush everything is going to plan :roll: . They need a big reality check, because the majority American public are not buying their optimism.

This is exactly the doom and gloom I was talking about..............we shall see.........
 

faminedynasty

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Navy Pride said:
The predictions by the naysayers from the left predicted civil war after the elections in January, this did not happen
Oh? What do you call it when rival groups within one country kill eachother in mass? Civil war has been going on for awhile, it just hasn't escalated as much as it is likely to in coming days.
 

Wyldinstinct

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Navy Pride said:
The predictions by the naysayers from the left predicted civil war after the elections in January, this did not happen, it is no surprise that the same naysayers will predict civil war after this referundum and continue to do so evey step of the way...............

At some pont though will this does not happen they will have to admit they were wrong.........

So does this mean that the more than 60% of Americans that disapprove of Bush's handling of Iraq have swung to the left? I'm assuming you meant to say "when" this doesn't happen? In any case, IF this does happen, will you admit that you were wrong?
 

Kandahar

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No one expected this constitution to fail the referendum, not even the "doom and gloom" people you refer to (i.e. those of us who aren't blinded by adoration for Bush).

This outcome is actually worse than outright failure; at least if the voters rejected the constitution, they'd have to go back and negotiate. Instead, we have a situation where a majority of the Sunnis (the driving force behind the insurgency) rejected the constitution, but it passed anyway. This will make them feel like their voice does not matter, and perhaps prolong or aggravate the insurgency.

And FYI Iraq has been in a civil war for many months now. It is YOU who is going to have to admit that you're wrong sooner or later, NavyPride.

I agree with whoever said that the most likely outcome of this whole mess is three different countries.
 

Navy Pride

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faminedynasty said:
Oh? What do you call it when rival groups within one country kill eachother in mass? Civil war has been going on for awhile, it just hasn't escalated as much as it is likely to in coming days.


I call it terrorism by a small group of Bathists, an terrorists from Jordan and Syria in 3 of the provinces in Iraq and the rest of the country is relatively peaceful......You people on the left would love for it to break out in a Civil War but at this point it is nothing close to that.......The problem is the liberal media in this country only promotes the bad things in Iraq not the good things happening in most of the probinces.........
 

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Wait till the civil war starts and then tell me that it was a 'huge victory' for Bush.
 

Navy Pride

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Old and wise said:
Wait till the civil war starts and then tell me that it was a 'huge victory' for Bush.

People like you hope their is a civil war....Anytrhing it takes to make President Bush look bad, even if it means our troops are killed.......Sad...
 

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Navy Pride said:
I call it terrorism by a small group of Bathists, an terrorists from Jordan and Syria in 3 of the provinces in Iraq and the rest of the country is relatively peaceful......You people on the left would love for it to break out in a Civil War but at this point it is nothing close to that.......The problem is the liberal media in this country only promotes the bad things in Iraq not the good things happening in most of the probinces.........

Good if its just a small group lets pull our troops the hell out of there and the Iraqis can handle it. As long as our troops are there we feed the anti-American sentiment in the country. Kind of how we would feel if some Islamic country invaded and occupied us to give us a "proper" government.
 

Navy Pride

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Iriemon said:
Good if its just a small group lets pull our troops the hell out of there and the Iraqis can handle it. As long as our troops are there we feed the anti-American sentiment in the country. Kind of how we would feel if some Islamic country invaded and occupied us to give us a "proper" government.

Sorry the left got away with that crap in Nam in that we cut and run.......Not going to happen with this president......We will stay the course until the job is completed there, no matter how much you on the left whine......

There is a little diffenrce in your scenario........We are liberators, not occupiers...........Occupiers will never leave........We will leave the moment the duly elected government of Iraq asks us to do so....
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Kandahar said:
This outcome is actually worse than outright failure

You guys just can't stand it, you'd rather see failure and all the reprocussions than to see the US win.
 

Navy Pride

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Stinger said:
You guys just can't stand it, you'd rather see failure and all the reprocussions than to see the US win.


They hate this president so much that even if it means our brave people die in Iraq they don't mind because it makes the President look bad.......

Oh yeah, they support the troops though...:roll:
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Navy Pride said:
I call it terrorism by a small group of Bathists, an terrorists from Jordan and Syria in 3 of the provinces in Iraq and the rest of the country is relatively peaceful......You people on the left would love for it to break out in a Civil War but at this point it is nothing close to that.......The problem is the liberal media in this country only promotes the bad things in Iraq not the good things happening in most of the probinces.........
Foreign fighters only make up about 10% of the insurgency. The country has essentially been in a low grade civil war for a while now. Hell, Baghdad is not even secure. The fact is, I hope that we do win, but we are a long ways from that.
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Stinger said:
You guys just can't stand it, you'd rather see failure and all the reprocussions than to see the US win.

Well I've always been against the war, but after it was launched I was hoping for success while it was still possible.

Success is no longer possible, and now it's a question of how many more US soldiers have to die before we cut and run. So in that sense, yes, I'm hoping for total failure as soon as possible if it means we'll get our troops out sooner. And I make no apologies for that.

The fact is that the passing of the constitution is hardly a "huge victory" for democracy, as it has been expected. A majority of Sunnis rejected it, and it still passed. That's not going to help end the insurgency, it's going to make it worse if anything.
 

Navy Pride

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

SouthernDemocrat said:
Foreign fighters only make up about 10% of the insurgency. The country has essentially been in a low grade civil war for a while now. Hell, Baghdad is not even secure. The fact is, I hope that we do win, but we are a long ways from that.


Baghdad is not secure but 15 out of the 18 provices in Iraq are..........You have been drinking to much of the left wing koolaid SD........
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Navy Pride said:
Baghdad is not secure but 15 out of the 18 provices in Iraq are

:spin:
So what? 3 of the 18 are NOT secure!
 

Navy Pride

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Kandahar said:
:spin:
So what? 3 of the 18 are NOT secure!

Much to your sorrow they will be soon.........Once this new government is up and running the Iraqi people have had enough of this crap and they will take care of the problem........
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Navy Pride said:
Much to your sorrow they will be soon.........Once this new government is up and running the Iraqi people have had enough of this crap and they will take care of the problem........

You people have been saying that for two and a half years now. How much longer is it going to take? Give me a number of months. And if there's still just as much carnage in Iraq at that time as there is now, would you agree that we should immediately withdraw all of our troops since they are accomplishing nothing?
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

I believe this is a victory, not total, but a victory for iraq. Though we must reflect back upon our constitution when it was first written. It took years for all the states to finally aggree and have it ratified. There was much termoil, contridictions, and inadiquit wants from all political sides. Something like this wont change everything overnight, it takes time for adaptability to occur! So for all you left wing pesimistic fellas, dont react if everything hasnt changed overnight. It takes time.. Please hold back the rhetoric on this! Be grateful for the iraqi people!
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

Kandahar said:
You people have been saying that for two and a half years now. How much longer is it going to take? Give me a number of months. And if there's still just as much carnage in Iraq at that time as there is now, would you agree that we should immediately withdraw all of our troops since they are accomplishing nothing?

The date is when the Iraqi police and army can handle security in their country............As an Iraqi battalion stands up a U.S. battalion will stand down..............

Under this President we will never cut and run like we did in nam........
 

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Re: A huge victory for President Bush and establishing a democracy in the mid-east...

AK_Conservative said:
I believe this is a victory, not total, but a victory for iraq. Though we must reflect back upon our constitution when it was first written. It took years for all the states to finally aggree and have it ratified.

The US Constitution didn't affect any state until that state ratified it. The Iraqi Constitution will take effect everywhere in the country, regardless of whether that region voted for it. Furthermore, the US Constitution was designed to promote a strong federal government among states that, despite political differences, more or less trusted each other. The Iraqi Constitution is designed to make impossible the existence of a strong federal government, because of widespread distrust of one another. If this isn't setting the stage for an all-out "official" civil war, I don't know what is.

AK_Conservative said:
There was much termoil, contridictions, and inadiquit wants from all political sides.

In all the history books I've read, I've never read about daily bombings in the streets of Boston and Philadelphia targeting civilians. I've never read about deep-seated ethnic tensions (among the groups with political influence at the time). I've never read that the United States was a tribal, distrusting society prior to the Constitution.

AK_Conservative said:
Something like this wont change everything overnight, it takes time for adaptability to occur! So for all you left wing pesimistic fellas, dont react if everything hasnt changed overnight. It takes time.. Please hold back the rhetoric on this! Be grateful for the iraqi people!

How much longer do we have to be grateful for the Iraqi people, before we're allowed to examine the reality on the ground and conclude that our presence there isn't helping?
 

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A constitution doesn't mean a thing if it can't be enforced. People have to belive in it. I am not sure that the officials even totally believe in it. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051018/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Until there is security in Iraq, the constitution wont mean a thing. A civil war is imminent. I am not hoping for that, I am observing that though. I don't need six adjectives to describe people that I disagree with. The redundancy really shows the ignorance and hatred. Even people in this country I disagree with are Americans. I don't hate Americans. Anyone who pays taxes is supporting our troops. Magnets and carflags made in China don't make you patriotic. Funny how cognitive dissonance skews perceptions. The very people that say people don't support the troops in Iraq accuse Clinton of "wagging the dog" in Kosovo. Didn't they support the troops in Kosovo? Remember, your standard of questioning motives for military action means that you don't support the troops!
 
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