• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A good man with a gun stops a shooting and still gets killed by police!!!!

independentusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 10, 2016
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
4,222
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...rd-shot-by-police_us_5be9a032e4b0caeec2bbcbb3
A black security guard at a bar stops a shooting and captures one of the suspects and then gets shot and killed by police for his actions. The police were told by the patrons that the man was a security guard, but they still shot him. Want to bet there is no action taken by the police against the shooter. I guess the saying is that if you are a good white person with a gun you can stop a shooting and still not get killed yourself by the police.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,860
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...rd-shot-by-police_us_5be9a032e4b0caeec2bbcbb3
A black security guard at a bar stops a shooting and captures one of the suspects and then gets shot and killed by police for his actions. The police were told by the patrons that the man was a security guard, but they still shot him. Want to bet there is no action taken by the police against the shooter. I guess the saying is that if you are a good white person with a gun you can stop a shooting and still not get killed yourself by the police.

The article didn't give much in the form of details. Did the officer tell the man to drop the gun or did the officer fire without warning or ordering the man to drop his gun? That's just one of dozens of questions that need to be answered before we go down the "black man shot by cop" road without knowing what actually happened that got the cop to the point of shooting.
 

Felis Leo

Moral clarity is needed
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
9,099
Reaction score
9,736
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...rd-shot-by-police_us_5be9a032e4b0caeec2bbcbb3
A black security guard at a bar stops a shooting and captures one of the suspects and then gets shot and killed by police for his actions. The police were told by the patrons that the man was a security guard, but they still shot him. Want to bet there is no action taken by the police against the shooter. I guess the saying is that if you are a good white person with a gun you can stop a shooting and still not get killed yourself by the police.

I saw this article, and it enraged me. It indicates to me that good people with guns are not the problem; agents of the state who are granted the power of life and death over citizens and reflexively abuse that power are the problem.
 
Last edited:

PirateMk1

Resident Martian ;)
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
17,353
Reaction score
8,273
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
The article didn't give much in the form of details. Did the officer tell the man to drop the gun or did the officer fire without warning or ordering the man to drop his gun? That's just one of dozens of questions that need to be answered before we go down the "black man shot by cop" road without knowing what actually happened that got the cop to the point of shooting.

Police should not be able to use lethal force unless they have been fired upon.
 

independentusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 10, 2016
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
4,222
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The article didn't give much in the form of details. Did the officer tell the man to drop the gun or did the officer fire without warning or ordering the man to drop his gun? That's just one of dozens of questions that need to be answered before we go down the "black man shot by cop" road without knowing what actually happened that got the cop to the point of shooting.

Well apparently the cop knew the guy was a security guard as the patrons were yelling the information. Maybe, just maybe the cop should stop and find out what was going on before shooting the guard. I would bet you that if the man had been white holding down a shooting suspect and the patrons were yelling he is security, the shooting would have never taken place. There is no excuse at all for this killing. The cop shot a hero who stopped more people from being hurt and he is the only one to die. Yes, let us wait to hear what the cops say about this.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
80,961
Reaction score
49,090
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
I saw this article, and it enraged me. It indicates to me that good people with guns are not the problem; agents of the state granted the power of life and death over citizens and reflexively abusing that power are the problem.

Pretty much. And we do not punish the State or its agents when they abuse power, nor do we demand better training and changes in protocol.
 

TheGoverness

Little Miss Sunshine
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
35,047
Reaction score
37,666
Location
Houston Area, TX
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Pretty much. And we do not punish the State or its agents when they abuse power, nor do we demand better training and changes in protocol.

We give them slaps on the wrists.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,860
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Police should not be able to use lethal force unless they have been fired upon.

If a police officer responds to a call of a man threatening others with a gun, and when they get to the scene they see a man holding another man to the ground with a gun to the other man's back, the officers are not going to know which is the good guy and which is the bad guy.

Normally, when this happens, the officers order everyone that's not a police officer to drop their weapons. The ones that don't may get shot.

If a person had me pinned to the ground and had a gun pointed into my back, and a police officer arrived and ordered the man to drop his gun, and he didn't drop it, I would hope that the officer would protect my life by shooting the man with the gun to my back.

You may disagree, and be fine with someone holding a gun to your back even after being ordered to drop by the police.

In this particular case, like I said in my first post, we have to get more information before I can make any determination. Instantly making the determination and condemning the officer by bringing race into the argument by pointing out the person shot was black, as if him being is why he was shot, without knowing all the details around the shooting is in and of itself, a racist and bigoted determination to make. Not saying that that's what you're doing.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,860
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Well apparently the cop knew the guy was a security guard as the patrons were yelling the information.
That proves nothing. The officers are trained to focus on the threat, not the crowd, unless the crowd is part of the threat. You can watch thousands of videos where officers are being yelled at by the crowd that "He didn't do nuthin'" or "He's not resisting" or "I'm gonna put this on YouTube" or "WorldStar" or whatever. What matters is if the officer told the man to drop the gun or not. Not what the crowd was yelling at him.
Maybe, just maybe the cop should stop and find out what was going on before shooting the guard.
From the article that you posted, the man had a gun to another man's back when the officer arrived. If the officer had stopped his actions and started talking to the crowd to find out what was going on, and while the officer was doing that the man with the gun shot the other man, people would be raising hell about the officer not caring about a black man being shot.
I would bet you that if the man had been white holding down a shooting suspect and the patrons were yelling he is security, the shooting would have never taken place.
Then you'd lose the bet. And, that's racist to say.
There is no excuse at all for this killing.
You don't know that.
The cop shot a hero who stopped more people from being hurt and he is the only one to die. Yes, let us wait to hear what the cops say about this.
It is very sad for sure. But we have no idea what actually happened.
 

independentusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 10, 2016
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
4,222
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
That proves nothing. The officers are trained to focus on the threat, not the crowd, unless the crowd is part of the threat. You can watch thousands of videos where officers are being yelled at by the crowd that "He didn't do nuthin'" or "He's not resisting" or "I'm gonna put this on YouTube" or "WorldStar" or whatever. What matters is if the officer told the man to drop the gun or not. Not what the crowd was yelling at him. From the article that you posted, the man had a gun to another man's back when the officer arrived. If the officer had stopped his actions and started talking to the crowd to find out what was going on, and while the officer was doing that the man with the gun shot the other man, people would be raising hell about the officer not caring about a black man being shot. Then you'd lose the bet. And, that's racist to say. You don't know that. It is very sad for sure. But we have no idea what actually happened.

You make this sound like the wild west where the cops shoot first and ask questions later. Do you realize that is why so many coop shootings lately have been questioned. This is especially true when it comes to the shooting of black men vs white men. And yes, I would expect the cop to be listening to what the crowd was saying. Maybe he was so focused on the people involved that he never took the time to ACTUALLY find out what was going on. SO he saved the poor shooter and killed the guard. I guess some people will always make excuses for cops shooting black men no matter what.
 

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
34,722
Reaction score
23,548
Location
Southern England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
That proves nothing. The officers are trained to focus on the threat, not the crowd, unless the crowd is part of the threat. You can watch thousands of videos where officers are being yelled at by the crowd that "He didn't do nuthin'" or "He's not resisting" or "I'm gonna put this on YouTube" or "WorldStar" or whatever. What matters is if the officer told the man to drop the gun or not. Not what the crowd was yelling at him. From the article that you posted, the man had a gun to another man's back when the officer arrived. If the officer had stopped his actions and started talking to the crowd to find out what was going on, and while the officer was doing that the man with the gun shot the other man, people would be raising hell about the officer not caring about a black man being shot. Then you'd lose the bet. And, that's racist to say. You don't know that. It is very sad for sure. But we have no idea what actually happened.

What is your basis for the claim that a white man holding a gun on a person is as likely to be shot as a black man in the same situation? The lived experience tends to support the observation that cops disproportionately shoot more black men, in any given situation. It would be racist to deny this was so.
 

independentusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 10, 2016
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
4,222
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
That proves nothing. The officers are trained to focus on the threat, not the crowd, unless the crowd is part of the threat. You can watch thousands of videos where officers are being yelled at by the crowd that "He didn't do nuthin'" or "He's not resisting" or "I'm gonna put this on YouTube" or "WorldStar" or whatever. What matters is if the officer told the man to drop the gun or not. Not what the crowd was yelling at him. From the article that you posted, the man had a gun to another man's back when the officer arrived. If the officer had stopped his actions and started talking to the crowd to find out what was going on, and while the officer was doing that the man with the gun shot the other man, people would be raising hell about the officer not caring about a black man being shot. Then you'd lose the bet. And, that's racist to say. You don't know that. It is very sad for sure. But we have no idea what actually happened.

Another observation, if you have ever been in the military you have heard of the "rules of engagement". I am from a military family and have heard of these from day one. It gives a military person the factors that go into a decision to shoot someone. I would have to believe that cops have some similar rules. I can't believe that this cop would have been following any such rules.
 

Crossfire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
337
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
What is your basis for the claim that a white man holding a gun on a person is as likely to be shot as a black man in the same situation? The lived experience tends to support the observation that cops disproportionately shoot more black men, in any given situation. It would be racist to deny this was so.

This here little graph says you are wrong, not that I am surprised.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
 

PirateMk1

Resident Martian ;)
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
17,353
Reaction score
8,273
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
If a police officer responds to a call of a man threatening others with a gun, and when they get to the scene they see a man holding another man to the ground with a gun to the other man's back, the officers are not going to know which is the good guy and which is the bad guy.

Normally, when this happens, the officers order everyone that's not a police officer to drop their weapons. The ones that don't may get shot.

If a person had me pinned to the ground and had a gun pointed into my back, and a police officer arrived and ordered the man to drop his gun, and he didn't drop it, I would hope that the officer would protect my life by shooting the man with the gun to my back.

You may disagree, and be fine with someone holding a gun to your back even after being ordered to drop by the police.

In this particular case, like I said in my first post, we have to get more information before I can make any determination. Instantly making the determination and condemning the officer by bringing race into the argument by pointing out the person shot was black, as if him being is why he was shot, without knowing all the details around the shooting is in and of itself, a racist and bigoted determination to make. Not saying that that's what you're doing.

If the police are not being fired upon they have no business shooting. Period.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,154
Reaction score
21,551
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
Cops kill an innocent man, and all the bootlickers are finding ways to blame the innocent.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,154
Reaction score
21,551
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist

Crossfire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
337
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
No it doesn't. It shows 22% of people shot by cops are black, when they're 12% of the population. Compare that to 46% shot at 60% of the population for white people.

Well, he did not say as a percentage of the population, he said more black people are shot, so that graph does, indeed, show that he was wrong. Just going by percentage of population does not give the whole story either. Even taking into account police interactions, white people are shot more than black people, as a percentage. But, I do not want to spoil your "Cops are bad!" moment.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,154
Reaction score
21,551
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
Well, he did not say as a percentage of the population, he said more black people are shot, so that graph does, indeed, show that he was wrong. Just going by percentage of population does not give the whole story either. Even taking into account police interactions, white people are shot more than black people, as a percentage. But, I do not want to spoil your "Cops are bad!" moment.

He said cops disproportionately shoot more black people, and that's supported by the graph you posted, as a proportion of population.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,860
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
You make this sound like the wild west where the cops shoot first and ask questions later. Do you realize that is why so many coop shootings lately have been questioned. This is especially true when it comes to the shooting of black men vs white men. And yes, I would expect the cop to be listening to what the crowd was saying. Maybe he was so focused on the people involved that he never took the time to ACTUALLY find out what was going on. SO he saved the poor shooter and killed the guard. I guess some people will always make excuses for cops shooting black men no matter what.

Not even close and your response is so disingenuous that it bears no need for response, other than to say that as long as some look at each and every event as white versus black, then hate, anger, and violence will continue to be the result.

Read my sig.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,860
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What is your basis for the claim that a white man holding a gun on a person is as likely to be shot as a black man in the same situation? The lived experience tends to support the observation that cops disproportionately shoot more black men, in any given situation. It would be racist to deny this was so.

I not the one that has made a claim in this thread - which started with the OP article focusing on race, and continuing with others. I only said that we don't have enough to make a determination of what actually happened, and I've focused on facts in evidence, not on emotion or racial bias.
 

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
18,233
Reaction score
15,860
Location
veni, vidi, volo - now back in NC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Another observation, if you have ever been in the military you have heard of the "rules of engagement". I am from a military family and have heard of these from day one. It gives a military person the factors that go into a decision to shoot someone. I would have to believe that cops have some similar rules. I can't believe that this cop would have been following any such rules.

I would respectfully suggest that you read my posts again, where you will see that I have discussed SOP's for police involving an armed individual that they confront on the field.
 

Crossfire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
337
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
He said cops disproportionately shoot more black people, and that's supported by the graph you posted, as a proportion of population.

Except that if you look at all the data, not just percentage of population, that is not true. The graph just showed raw numbers, I will concede that, but that does not change the larger truth.
 

Anarchon

Resident Voluntaryist
Joined
Aug 12, 2018
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
425
Location
Rent-free in your head
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...rd-shot-by-police_us_5be9a032e4b0caeec2bbcbb3
A black security guard at a bar stops a shooting and captures one of the suspects and then gets shot and killed by police for his actions. The police were told by the patrons that the man was a security guard, but they still shot him. Want to bet there is no action taken by the police against the shooter. I guess the saying is that if you are a good white person with a gun you can stop a shooting and still not get killed yourself by the police.

There is no situation that can't be made worse by calling the cops.
 
Top Bottom