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A good border wall would devastate --------------

Logical1 said:
A good border wall would devastate drug and the sex trafficking business. Makes you wonder why democrats are so against it. Do they have a vested interest in these crimes?
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How about a Federal study to validate such claims before spending billions in tax dollars.
 
Lursa said:
Agreed. And Americans are thus very gunshy when it comes to just handing over our tax dollars. So many people just jump on this simplistic solution...little more than a slogan...for a wall. But just how effective would it be? Worth $5 billion? Or would that $$$ be better spent on other methods, like focusing REAL $$ and enforcement on the employers? (for example)
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Which ought to be done as well, but the left doesn't want any of that enforcement to be done. I guess enforcing the law is "racist" now. But once we're saving $50 billion a year, we will have plenty of money to throw at enforcement too. We just have to stem to tide of illegals right now, then we can deal with the ones already here.
 
Logical1 said:
A good border wall would devastate drug and the sex trafficking business. Makes you wonder why democrats are so against it. Do they have a vested interest in these crimes?
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What bugs me about it is the symbolism. It's a very ugly, alienating message: not just to Mexico, not just to all of Central and South America, but to the whole world. If border security is such a concern, I would rather spend those resources on measures that aren't such a giant conspicuous middle finger sticking out to the whole rest of the world: aerial surveillance, motion detectors, more foot patrol, etc....
 
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Cephus said:
Which ought to be done as well, but the left doesn't want any of that enforcement to be done. I guess enforcing the law is "racist" now. But once we're saving $50 billion a year, we will have plenty of money to throw at enforcement too. We just have to stem to tide of illegals right now, then we can deal with the ones already here.
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What tide? There is a net outflux of illegals out of the country right now. The tide is going the other way, if anything. The peak of this problem was back around 2007. There is no tide now. And the crime rate among illegals is actually lower among these illegals than it is among the baseline US population. That's why it's so puzzling that this has all of a sudden become such a huge crisis now.
 
ataraxia said:
What bugs me about it is the symbolism. It's a very ugly, alienating message: not just to Mexico, not just to all of Central and South America, but to the whole world. If border security is such a concern, I would rather spend those resources on symbols that aren't such a giant middle finger sticking out to the whole rest of the world: aerial surveillance, motion detectors, more foot patrol, etc....
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Good. We need the symbolism. We need to tell CRIMINALS, and that's what every single illegal alien is, a CRIMINAL, that they are not welcome here. If they want to come the legal way, fine. I welcome them. But if they think they can just walk across the border and get benefits, they are welcome to my middle finger.
 
Cephus said:
Good. We need the symbolism. We need to tell CRIMINALS, and that's what every single illegal alien is, a CRIMINAL, that they are not welcome here. If they want to come the legal way, fine. I welcome them. But if they think they can just walk across the border and get benefits, they are welcome to my middle finger.
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Yeah, you can do that to the criminals, without necessarily doing that to governments of populations of entire nations. The message the wall sends is not just going to the criminals, it's going to the governments and entire populations of other countries. It's a little too crass for my taste. I still would like the US to be considered a respectable member of the global community. Forget leadership, that requires a level of integrity and broad vision which we are way beyond having destroyed just in the last 2 years. I am pretty sure that's beyond repair at this point. Now I am just talking about simple cordiality and respect. It matters.
 
Cephus said:
Which ought to be done as well, but the left doesn't want any of that enforcement to be done. I guess enforcing the law is "racist" now. But once we're saving $50 billion a year, we will have plenty of money to throw at enforcement too. We just have to stem to tide of illegals right now, then we can deal with the ones already here.
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Sources? I call BS.

Lack of work 'worked' during the economic crisis 10 yrs ago.
 
Hanky said:
They are against anything Trump!! I'm not saying the wall would solve all our problems, but it would help.
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If you listened or watched anything but Fox News and Limbaugh, you would know that almost all drugs come into this country by sea, air and at ports of entry. Very little if any come to our country that would be stopped by the wall and even then the drug cartels do and will continue to just tunnel under such walls. The wall is a joke and I can not believe that the party of our government that is supposed to spend wisely would waste up to what 25=70 billion dollars on such a boondoggle.
 
ataraxia said:
Yeah, you can do that to the criminals, without necessarily doing that to governments of populations of entire nations. The message the wall sends is not just going to the criminals, it's going to the governments and entire populations of other countries. It's a little too crass for my taste. I still would like the US to be considered a respectable member of the global community. Forget leadership, that requires a level of integrity and broad vision which we are way beyond having destroyed just in the last 2 years. I am pretty sure that's beyond repair at this point. Now I am just talking about simple cordiality and respect. It matters.
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Lots of governments NEED that middle finger because they are actively complicit in shipping their unwanted masses north with the promise of a better life in America. You know, so they don't have to deal with them themselves. The wall is going up because there's a problem. Mexico isn't stopping illegal traffic headed north, they're hanging out maps. They haven't earned any respect. They've earned the middle finger.
 
Lursa said:
Sources? I call BS.

Lack of work 'worked' during the economic crisis 10 yrs ago.
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Google is your friend, there are TONS of stories about the left declaring any immigration enforcement racist. They want to abolish ICE for crying out loud!
 
Cephus said:
Lots of governments NEED that middle finger because they are actively complicit in shipping their unwanted masses north with the promise of a better life in America. You know, so they don't have to deal with them themselves. The wall is going up because there's a problem. Mexico isn't stopping illegal traffic headed north, they're hanging out maps. They haven't earned any respect. They've earned the middle finger.
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OK. I guess it's just a matter of taste. It's just too crass for my taste. I am pretty sure it can be done in far more sophisticated, not mention actually effective, ways. The wall is really not as effective as it is just a symbolism and a message: one that I think we would be better off not sending. If you really want to solve the problem rather than just stick your finger out to everyone, there are better and more effective ways.
 
Cephus said:
Google is your friend, there are TONS of stories about the left declaring any immigration enforcement racist. They want to abolish ICE for crying out loud!
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Classic simplistic thinking. The left is not one single homogenous block. It's like me saying America hates Trump. That's simplistic because a lot of Americans love Trump.

The vast majority of "liberals" don't want to abolish ICE nor do they think the immigration enforcement is racist. Obama deported more illegal immigrants than anyone. Both Bill Clinton and Obama pushed for better border security. They didn't do any less than Bush or Reagan.
 
Cephus said:
Google is your friend, there are TONS of stories about the left declaring any immigration enforcement racist. They want to abolish ICE for crying out loud!
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Ah...sure. ICE has nothing to do with employer enforcement. I was pretty specific. If you want racism...look at the propaganda against 'the brown hoards' streaming up from the south from the right.

Thanks for playing.
 
ataraxia said:
OK. I guess it's just a matter of taste. It's just too crass for my taste. I am pretty sure it can be done in far more sophisticated, not mention actually effective, ways. The wall is really not as effective as it is just a symbolism and a message: one that I think we would be better off not sending. If you really want to solve the problem rather than just stick your finger out to everyone, there are better and more effective ways.
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If they removed the jobs...the main motivation...no additional wall would be needed :doh
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
Classic simplistic thinking. The left is not one single homogenous block. It's like me saying America hates Trump. That's simplistic because a lot of Americans love Trump.

The vast majority of "liberals" don't want to abolish ICE nor do they think the immigration enforcement is racist. Obama deported more illegal immigrants than anyone. Both Bill Clinton and Obama pushed for better border security. They didn't do any less than Bush or Reagan.
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I didn't say it was monolithic, I said that liberals, and demonstrably this is true, hate Trump just because he's Trump. That doesn't mean ALL liberals and nowhere did I say they do. In fact a ton of classical liberals are big fans of Trump. That said though, and maybe I should just say a lot of VOCAL liberals, or regressives would probably be even better, who absolutely are pushing for the abolition of ICE and other programs. Is that better?
 
Lursa said:
If they removed the jobs...the main motivation...no additional wall would be needed :doh
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Well, removing the jobs motivation would probably help. But even without jobs, many of these people are just families desperate to escape the gang and drug wars, kidnappings, and violence.
 
ataraxia said:
Well, removing the jobs motivation would probably help. But even without jobs, many of these people are just families desperate to escape the gang and drug wars, kidnappings, and violence.
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None of which gives them any legal right to be here in violation of the law.
 
Cephus said:
None of which gives them any legal right to be here in violation of the law.
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Yeah sure. But It's a little like making the punishment for going over 55 mph speed limit a summary execution of the whole family on the side of the road by the arresting police officer. Would it teach some more respect for the law? Yeah sure, I guess. But it just seems like a little too much drama for what's actually going on.
 
ataraxia said:
Yeah sure. But It's a little like making the punishment for going over 55 mph speed limit a summary execution of the whole family on the side of the road by the arresting police officer. Would it teach some more respect for the law? Yeah sure, I guess. But it just seems like a little too much drama for what's actually going on.
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And who is executing illegal aliens again? Overly emotional much?
 
Cephus said:
And who is executing illegal aliens again? Overly emotional much?
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No. Just pointing out that excessive drama is not always the best way to fix a problem, and often can make a bad problem even worse.
 
lwf said:
What benefit do democrats gain from illegal immigration?
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VOTES & MORE IMPORTANTLY FUTURE VOTES!!!!!!!!

The most destructive lies ever witnessed in this country were uttered by Ted Kennedy on the Senate floor in 1965.

Ever since Ted Kennedy discovered that you could import democrat votes, the country started the long slide
down to 3rd world standards. After all, why work for your votes when you can get them by edict.
 
Hanky said:
They are against anything Trump!! I'm not saying the wall would solve all our problems, but it would help.
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They all were for the wall before they were against it.
 
ataraxia said:
No. Just pointing out that excessive drama is not always the best way to fix a problem, and often can make a bad problem even worse.
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Actually, when all of these people are running away from their problems and wanting others to solve them, they're the ones keeping the problems around. Maybe if they stayed home and fought to improve conditions, they wouldn't have to run across the border in the first place.
 
Cephus said:
I didn't say it was monolithic, I said that liberals, and demonstrably this is true, hate Trump just because he's Trump. That doesn't mean ALL liberals and nowhere did I say they do. In fact a ton of classical liberals are big fans of Trump. That said though, and maybe I should just say a lot of VOCAL liberals, or regressives would probably be even better, who absolutely are pushing for the abolition of ICE and other programs. Is that better?
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It's not demonstrably true that liberals hate Trump because he's Trump. Unless you define being Trump as being a pathological liar and ignoramus. If that's your definition of Trump then I absolutely agree that liberals hate Trump for being Trump.

Trump is not really a conservative. Pulling out of Syria and tariffs are not conservative. He would have a some liberal support if he wasn't so detestably dishonest and morally bankrupt.
 
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