• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A fictional scenerio- what if!!!

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
whats your opinion what do u think?

Fictional scenario: a Czech leader summons the Slovak leader to the Prague castle, and offers him a scenario, that the 2 countries (former Czechoslovakia) take on the task to pressure the UN security council to appease them that of what was taken from the former Czechoslovakia. The Carpathian Ruthenia, if they refuse then the 2 countries promise military action that will draw all of Europe into war. They promise if their demands are met that the occupants of the said region will retain their
Property and citizenship of the said region and will be allowed to stay, but will pay taxes to the Slovak republic. And all government installations along with military installations will be confiscated by the 2 countries. Thus the Carpathian Ruthenia will become part of the Slovak republic like it was after ww1 with Czechoslovakia. In return for this territorial advance Slovakia will cede an agreed share of it's western territory to the Czech republic and thus that part of Slovakia will become part of the Czech republic. How is this beneficial to the Czechs and Slovaks? The Slovaks gain new territory thus expanding it's borders and more revenue via taxes, the Czechs get the same advantage plus a hidden factor that before Czechoslovakia split up it was one of the largest arms dealers/ suppliers in the world, but most of the factories were on the Slovak side of the border thus after the split the advantage was lost and so was profit.


Here are some True facts via Wikipedia:


After World War I and the Treaty of Trianon (1920), Transcarpathia became part of Czechoslovakia. Whether this was widely popular among the mainly peasant population, is debatable; clearly, however, what mattered most to Ruthenians was not which country they would join, but that they be granted autonomy within it. After their experience of Magyarization, few Carpathian Rusyns were eager to remain under Hungarian rule, and they desired to ensure self-determination[2].

On November 8, 1918, the first National Council (the Lubovňa Council, which was later reconvened as the Prešov Council) was held in western Ruthenia. The first of many councils, it simply stated the desire of its members to separate from Hungary, but did not specify a particular alternative — only that it must involve the right to self-determination.

Over the next months, councils met every few weeks, calling for various solutions. Some wanted to remain part of Hungary but with greater autonomy; the most notable of these, the Uzhhorod Council (November 9, 1918), declared itself the representative of the Rusyn people and began negotiations with Hungary, resulting in the adoption of Law no. 10, making four of the Rusyn counties autonomous. Other councils, such as the Carpatho-Ruthenian National Council meetings in Khust (November 1918), called for unification with a Ukrainian state. It was only in early January 1919 that the first calls were heard in Ruthenia for union with Czechoslovakia.[citation needed]

Prior to this, in July 1918, Rusyn immigrants in the United States had convened and called for complete independence. Failing that, they would try to unite with Galicia and Bukovyna; and failing that, they would demand autonomy, though they did not specify under which state. They approached the American government and were told that the only viable option was unification with Czechoslovakia. Their leader, Gregory Zatkovich, then signed the "Philadelphia Agreement" with Czech President Tomáš Masaryk, guaranteeing Rusyn autonomy upon unification with Czechoslovakia. A referendum was held among American Rusyn parishes, with a resulting 67% in favor. Another 28% voted for union with Ukraine, and less than one percent each for Galicia, Hungary and Russia. Less than 2% desired complete independence.

In April 1919, Czechoslovak control on the ground was established, when Czechoslovak troops acting in concert with Rumanian forces arriving from the east - both acting under French auspices - entered the area. In a series of battles they defeated and crushed the local militias of the Hungarian Soviet Republic, whose proclaimed aim was to "unite the Hungarian, Rosyn and Jewish toilers against the exploiters of the same nationalities". Communist sympathizers accused the Czechoslovaks and Rumanians of atrocities, such as public hangings and the clubbing to death of wounded prisoners[3].

This fighting had a strategic significance as the Soviet aid for whose coming the Hungarian Communists hoped (in vain, as the Bolsheviks were too busy with their own civil war) would have had to pass thorough this region. In 1920, the area was used as a conduit for arms and ammunition for the anti-Soviet Poles fighting in the Polish-Soviet War directly to the north, while local Communists sabotaged the trains and tried to help the Soviet side.[4].

In May 1919, a Central National Council convened in the US under Zatkovich and voted unanimously to accept the Czechoslovak solution. Back in Ruthenia, on May 8, 1919, a general meeting of representatives from all the previous councils was held, and declared that "The Central Russian National Council... completely endorse the decision of the American Uhro-Rusin Council to unite with the Czech-Slovak nation on the basis of full national autonomy."

The Hungarian left-wing writer Béla Illés claimed that the meeting was little more than a farce, with various "notables" fetched from their homes by police, formed into a "National Assembly" without any semblance of a democratic process, and effectively ordered to endorse incorporation into Czechoslovakia. He further asserts that Clemenceau had personally instructed the French general on the spot to get the area incorporated into Czechoslovakia "at all costs", so as to create a buffer separating Soviet Ukraina from Hungary, as part of the French anti-Communist "Cordon sanitaire" policy, and that is was the French rather than the Czechoslovaks who made the effective decisions.[5]

Zatkovich was appointed governor of the province by Masaryk on April 20, 1920 and resigned almost a year later, on April 17, 1921, to return to his law practice in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. The reason for his resignation was dissatisfaction with the borders with Slovakia [6]. His tenure is a historical anomaly as the only American citizen ever acting as governor of a province that later became a part of the USSR.
Subcarpathian Rus within Czechoslovakia (1928)

The Treaty of St. Germain (September 10, 1919) granted the Carpathian Rusyns that autonomy, which was later upheld to some extent by the Czechoslovak constitution. Some rights were, however, withheld by Prague, which justified its actions by claiming that the process was to be a gradual one; and Rusyn representation in the national sphere was less than that hoped for. In 1927, Czechoslovakia was divided into four provinces and one of them was Sub-Carpathian Rus.

While it was the Rusyns themselves who had arrived at the decision to join the Czechoslovak state, it is debatable whether their decision had any influence on the outcome.[citation needed] At the Paris Peace Conference, several other countries (including Hungary, Ukraine and Russia) laid claim to Carpathian Rus. The Allies, however, had few alternatives to choosing Czechoslovakia. Hungary had lost the war and therefore gave up its claims; Ukraine was seen as politically inviable; and Russia was in the midst of a civil war. Thus the Rusyns' decision to become part of Czechoslovakia can only have been important in creating, at least initially, good relations between the leaders of Carpathian Rus and Czechoslovakia. The Ukrainian language was not actively persecuted in Czechoslovakia during the interwar period unlike in the three other countries with a large Ukrainian population (Soviet Union, Poland and Romania).[7]

In the period 1918-1938 the Czechoslovak government decided to bring the very undeveloped region (70% of population illiterate, no industry, herdsman way of life)[8] to the level of Czechoslovakia. Thousands of Czech teachers, policemen, clerks and businessmen went to the region. Czechoslovak government used a lot of money to build thousands of kilometres of railways, roads, airports, hundreds of schools and residential buildings.[8]

In November 1938, under the First Vienna Award — which was a result of the Munich Agreement — Czechoslovakia, and later Slovakia, were forced by Germany and Italy to cede the southern third of Slovakia and southern Carpathian Rus to Hungary. The remainder of Carpathian Rus received autonomy, with Avhustyn Voloshyn as the prime minister of the autonomous government.

Following the Slovak proclamation of independence on March 14 and Nazi's seizure of Czech lands on March 15, Carpatho-Rus declared its independence as the Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine, with Avhustyn Voloshyn as head of state, and was immediately invaded and annexed by Hungary. On March 23 Hungary annexed further parts of eastern Slovakia bordering with the west of Carpatho-Rus.

In the fall of 1944 when the north and eastern parts of Carpatho-Rus were seized by Red Army, the Czechoslovak government delegation led by minister František Němec arrived to Khust to establish the provisional Czechoslovak administration, according to the treaties between the Soviet and Czechoslovak government from the same year. However, just after few weeks, from the reasons still not clear, the Red Army and NKVD started to obstruct the delegation's work and finally the puppet "National committee of Transcarpatho-Ukraine" was set up in Mukachevo under the protection of Red Army. On November 26 this committee, led by Ivan Turyanitsa (Rusyn who deserted from Czechoslovak army) proclaimed the "will of Ukrainian people" to separate from Czechoslovakia and join the Soviet Ukraine. After two months of conflicts and useless negotiations the Czechoslovak government delegation departed Khust on February 1, 1945, left the Carpathian Rus under the Soviet control.

After World War II, on June 29, 1945, a treaty was signed between Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union, ceding Carpatho-Rus officially to the Soviet Union. In 1946, Rus was incorporated into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

The latter in 1991 became the independent state of Ukraine, with Carpatho-Rus as an integral part. Currently, the region is a province within Ukraine, officially known as Zakarpattia Oblast.



If you think of it the Russians did something similar in Georgia in 2008.
 

Deuce

Outer space potato man
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
74,280
Reaction score
32,396
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I'm not doing your homework for you.
 

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,659
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
whats your opinion what do u think?

Fictional scenario: a Czech leader summons the Slovak leader to the Prague castle, and offers him a scenario, that the 2 countries (former Czechoslovakia) take on the task to pressure the UN security council to appease them that of what was taken from the former Czechoslovakia. The Carpathian Ruthenia, if they refuse then the 2 countries promise military action that will draw all of Europe into war. They promise if their demands are met that the occupants of the said region will retain their
Property and citizenship of the said region and will be allowed to stay, but will pay taxes to the Slovak republic. And all government installations along with military installations will be confiscated by the 2 countries. Thus the Carpathian Ruthenia will become part of the Slovak republic like it was after ww1 with Czechoslovakia. In return for this territorial advance Slovakia will cede an agreed share of it's western territory to the Czech republic and thus that part of Slovakia will become part of the Czech republic. How is this beneficial to the Czechs and Slovaks? The Slovaks gain new territory thus expanding it's borders and more revenue via taxes, the Czechs get the same advantage plus a hidden factor that before Czechoslovakia split up it was one of the largest arms dealers/ suppliers in the world, but most of the factories were on the Slovak side of the border thus after the split the advantage was lost and so was profit.


Here are some True facts via Wikipedia:


After World War I and the Treaty of Trianon (1920), Transcarpathia became part of Czechoslovakia. Whether this was widely popular among the mainly peasant population, is debatable; clearly, however, what mattered most to Ruthenians was not which country they would join, but that they be granted autonomy within it. After their experience of Magyarization, few Carpathian Rusyns were eager to remain under Hungarian rule, and they desired to ensure self-determination[2].

On November 8, 1918, the first National Council (the Lubovňa Council, which was later reconvened as the Prešov Council) was held in western Ruthenia. The first of many councils, it simply stated the desire of its members to separate from Hungary, but did not specify a particular alternative — only that it must involve the right to self-determination.

Over the next months, councils met every few weeks, calling for various solutions. Some wanted to remain part of Hungary but with greater autonomy; the most notable of these, the Uzhhorod Council (November 9, 1918), declared itself the representative of the Rusyn people and began negotiations with Hungary, resulting in the adoption of Law no. 10, making four of the Rusyn counties autonomous. Other councils, such as the Carpatho-Ruthenian National Council meetings in Khust (November 1918), called for unification with a Ukrainian state. It was only in early January 1919 that the first calls were heard in Ruthenia for union with Czechoslovakia.[citation needed]

Prior to this, in July 1918, Rusyn immigrants in the United States had convened and called for complete independence. Failing that, they would try to unite with Galicia and Bukovyna; and failing that, they would demand autonomy, though they did not specify under which state. They approached the American government and were told that the only viable option was unification with Czechoslovakia. Their leader, Gregory Zatkovich, then signed the "Philadelphia Agreement" with Czech President Tomáš Masaryk, guaranteeing Rusyn autonomy upon unification with Czechoslovakia. A referendum was held among American Rusyn parishes, with a resulting 67% in favor. Another 28% voted for union with Ukraine, and less than one percent each for Galicia, Hungary and Russia. Less than 2% desired complete independence.

In April 1919, Czechoslovak control on the ground was established, when Czechoslovak troops acting in concert with Rumanian forces arriving from the east - both acting under French auspices - entered the area. In a series of battles they defeated and crushed the local militias of the Hungarian Soviet Republic, whose proclaimed aim was to "unite the Hungarian, Rosyn and Jewish toilers against the exploiters of the same nationalities". Communist sympathizers accused the Czechoslovaks and Rumanians of atrocities, such as public hangings and the clubbing to death of wounded prisoners[3].

This fighting had a strategic significance as the Soviet aid for whose coming the Hungarian Communists hoped (in vain, as the Bolsheviks were too busy with their own civil war) would have had to pass thorough this region. In 1920, the area was used as a conduit for arms and ammunition for the anti-Soviet Poles fighting in the Polish-Soviet War directly to the north, while local Communists sabotaged the trains and tried to help the Soviet side.[4].

In May 1919, a Central National Council convened in the US under Zatkovich and voted unanimously to accept the Czechoslovak solution. Back in Ruthenia, on May 8, 1919, a general meeting of representatives from all the previous councils was held, and declared that "The Central Russian National Council... completely endorse the decision of the American Uhro-Rusin Council to unite with the Czech-Slovak nation on the basis of full national autonomy."

The Hungarian left-wing writer Béla Illés claimed that the meeting was little more than a farce, with various "notables" fetched from their homes by police, formed into a "National Assembly" without any semblance of a democratic process, and effectively ordered to endorse incorporation into Czechoslovakia. He further asserts that Clemenceau had personally instructed the French general on the spot to get the area incorporated into Czechoslovakia "at all costs", so as to create a buffer separating Soviet Ukraina from Hungary, as part of the French anti-Communist "Cordon sanitaire" policy, and that is was the French rather than the Czechoslovaks who made the effective decisions.[5]

Zatkovich was appointed governor of the province by Masaryk on April 20, 1920 and resigned almost a year later, on April 17, 1921, to return to his law practice in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. The reason for his resignation was dissatisfaction with the borders with Slovakia [6]. His tenure is a historical anomaly as the only American citizen ever acting as governor of a province that later became a part of the USSR.
Subcarpathian Rus within Czechoslovakia (1928)

The Treaty of St. Germain (September 10, 1919) granted the Carpathian Rusyns that autonomy, which was later upheld to some extent by the Czechoslovak constitution. Some rights were, however, withheld by Prague, which justified its actions by claiming that the process was to be a gradual one; and Rusyn representation in the national sphere was less than that hoped for. In 1927, Czechoslovakia was divided into four provinces and one of them was Sub-Carpathian Rus.

While it was the Rusyns themselves who had arrived at the decision to join the Czechoslovak state, it is debatable whether their decision had any influence on the outcome.[citation needed] At the Paris Peace Conference, several other countries (including Hungary, Ukraine and Russia) laid claim to Carpathian Rus. The Allies, however, had few alternatives to choosing Czechoslovakia. Hungary had lost the war and therefore gave up its claims; Ukraine was seen as politically inviable; and Russia was in the midst of a civil war. Thus the Rusyns' decision to become part of Czechoslovakia can only have been important in creating, at least initially, good relations between the leaders of Carpathian Rus and Czechoslovakia. The Ukrainian language was not actively persecuted in Czechoslovakia during the interwar period unlike in the three other countries with a large Ukrainian population (Soviet Union, Poland and Romania).[7]

In the period 1918-1938 the Czechoslovak government decided to bring the very undeveloped region (70% of population illiterate, no industry, herdsman way of life)[8] to the level of Czechoslovakia. Thousands of Czech teachers, policemen, clerks and businessmen went to the region. Czechoslovak government used a lot of money to build thousands of kilometres of railways, roads, airports, hundreds of schools and residential buildings.[8]

In November 1938, under the First Vienna Award — which was a result of the Munich Agreement — Czechoslovakia, and later Slovakia, were forced by Germany and Italy to cede the southern third of Slovakia and southern Carpathian Rus to Hungary. The remainder of Carpathian Rus received autonomy, with Avhustyn Voloshyn as the prime minister of the autonomous government.

Following the Slovak proclamation of independence on March 14 and Nazi's seizure of Czech lands on March 15, Carpatho-Rus declared its independence as the Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine, with Avhustyn Voloshyn as head of state, and was immediately invaded and annexed by Hungary. On March 23 Hungary annexed further parts of eastern Slovakia bordering with the west of Carpatho-Rus.

In the fall of 1944 when the north and eastern parts of Carpatho-Rus were seized by Red Army, the Czechoslovak government delegation led by minister František Němec arrived to Khust to establish the provisional Czechoslovak administration, according to the treaties between the Soviet and Czechoslovak government from the same year. However, just after few weeks, from the reasons still not clear, the Red Army and NKVD started to obstruct the delegation's work and finally the puppet "National committee of Transcarpatho-Ukraine" was set up in Mukachevo under the protection of Red Army. On November 26 this committee, led by Ivan Turyanitsa (Rusyn who deserted from Czechoslovak army) proclaimed the "will of Ukrainian people" to separate from Czechoslovakia and join the Soviet Ukraine. After two months of conflicts and useless negotiations the Czechoslovak government delegation departed Khust on February 1, 1945, left the Carpathian Rus under the Soviet control.

After World War II, on June 29, 1945, a treaty was signed between Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union, ceding Carpatho-Rus officially to the Soviet Union. In 1946, Rus was incorporated into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

The latter in 1991 became the independent state of Ukraine, with Carpatho-Rus as an integral part. Currently, the region is a province within Ukraine, officially known as Zakarpattia Oblast.



If you think of it the Russians did something similar in Georgia in 2008.
Congratulations on the longest first post on Debate Politics I've ever seen.
 

MKULTRABOY

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Fictional scenario: a Czech leader summons the Slovak leader to the Prague castle, and offers him a scenario, that the 2 countries (former Czechoslovakia) take on the task to pressure the UN security council to appease them that of what was taken from the former Czechoslovakia. The Carpathian Ruthenia, if they refuse then the 2 countries promise military action that will draw all of Europe into war. They promise if their demands are met that the occupants of the said region will retain their
Property and citizenship of the said region and will be allowed to stay, but will pay taxes to the Slovak republic. And all government installations along with military installations will be confiscated by the 2 countries. Thus the Carpathian Ruthenia will become part of the Slovak republic like it was after ww1 with Czechoslovakia. In return for this territorial advance Slovakia will cede an agreed share of it's western territory to the Czech republic and thus that part of Slovakia will become part of the Czech republic. How is this beneficial to the Czechs and Slovaks? The Slovaks gain new territory thus expanding it's borders and more revenue via taxes, the Czechs get the same advantage plus a hidden factor that before Czechoslovakia split up it was one of the largest arms dealers/ suppliers in the world, but most of the factories were on the Slovak side of the border thus after the split the advantage was lost and so was profit.
What class what level?
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
not a homework just something i thought up and was wondering about peoples opinion about it.
 

MKULTRABOY

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
A collusion between states that probably hasn't happened since feudalism. I dont think the international community would play the game.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,113
Reaction score
21,519
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
If it's between the Czech and the Slovaks, why involve the UN?
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
A collusion between states that probably hasn't happened since feudalism. I dont think the international community would play the game.
well i think about it and look at history, the said region belonged to the Former czechoslovakia anyway. And was Taken away after wwii by the soviets
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
the said region is in ukraine!! and everybody knows that part of the world is still influenced by the russians and russia is a permenant member of the un security council
 

MKULTRABOY

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Hrrm.... they certainly would not be able to draw europe into a war. Russia would win if they dont get it done before the su-50.
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Hrrm.... they certainly would not be able to draw europe into a war. Russia would win if they dont get it done before the su-50.
correct, but by going to the UN security council it would certanly involve the rest of the super powers, so some kind of an agreement would have to eb reached i mean the big 5 would want to preserve peace in europe like they have for the last 70 years.
 

MKULTRABOY

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
There are a few problems such as calculating the economic benefits of a tradeoff. Also, please describe the scenario and steps of a would be war escalation. Im also fuzzy on that.
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
BTW the czechs have VERA - Czech system detecting stealth aircrafts
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
well thats the thing, the 2 nations (czechs adn slovaks) would position their millitary units into defensive positions around their borders, and keep a sizeable offensive force on hand ready to be deployed. In all the 2 countries have about 3 million personal fit for duty of which about 500 thounsand would be deployed for millitary offense and defense. but the real goal is to make the g5 appease! and if all else fails there is really 2 options left. 1. attack and most likely loose. 2. withdraw
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
lets just say when the czechs wanted to sell it to the chinese, the then bush administration asked desperatly not to go though with the sale that it would comprimise their nation security LOL think of it american stealth fighters could be detected lol thats how effective it is.
 

MKULTRABOY

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
well thats the thing, the 2 nations (czechs adn slovaks) would position their millitary units into defensive positions around their borders, and keep a sizeable offensive force on hand ready to be deployed. In all the 2 countries have about 3 million personal fit for duty of which about 500 thounsand would be deployed for millitary offense and defense. but the real goal is to make the g5 appease! and if all else fails there is really 2 options left. 1. attack and most likely loose. 2. withdraw

Neat... unfortunately I dont now that much about the defense considerations of eastern european nations. Do you think Russia would really attack?
 

Macman1056

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
i think if provoked they would get involved, but hey looka t germany before wwii, they threatened and uk france appeased them and basicly told the then czech government that they have no room but to give the sudetan lands over to germany so why wouldent it work. who wants a war now.
 

MKULTRABOY

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Hrmm... I dunno. It's an interesting idea but Im going to default and say that the idea is unfeasable in its vision given consideration past our expertise.
 
Top Bottom