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A federal court may have declared immigration arrests unconstitutional

Empirica

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Most of those laws are already on the books. They are just hard to enforce, or the enforcement is focused on the illegals themselves rather than on the businesses that hire them. If someone with no identification needs emergency medical care and goes to a hospital, how are you going to prevent them from receiving it?
I agree; but the reason those laws aren't being enforced isn't because they're hard to enforce.....it's because government has simply refused to.

And "illegal aliens" should only receive treatment for life threatening conditions; and reported to ICE for immediate deportation.

Illegal Immigration will absolutely not stop until government is held accountable for enforcing our laws with no regard to political correctness!

But for now: Establishment Republicans support illegal immigration for cheap labor and Democrats promote illegal immigration for their votes.

What are you going to do to doctors that refuse to violate medical ethics?
That would be entirely up to the judge and jury...

We can only hope the US legal system considers Immigration law a higher priority than political correctness.

Because prioritizing political correctness is how we got in this awful mess in the first place.....and other messes as well.

The magnet that attracts illegal immigration is simply the opportunity for a better life in America. If the alternative is starvation or genocide in their own country, no amount of risk imposed by U.S. immigration laws will be a deterrent.
The United States does have a legal immigration system in place precisely for these very reasons.

I know this for a fact because my mother and father went through this long legal process to become US citizens.

Ducking ICE, risking "permanent" deportation, and living off the grid is preferable to the vast majority of illegal immigrants than living in their home country.
There are roughly 8 billion people in the world and probably half of them, if not more, fit the illegal immigrant profile you have described.

Imagine you're the captain of a life boat out to sea that is filled to capacity, and a thousand people are franticly swimming toward your boat.

What do you do??? Waste time rationalizing a very bad choice??? Or put on your big boy pants and go with common sense and reasoning???

And please don't rationalize with "the US isn't at capacity" because this ain't about real estate it's about resources, security, quality of life and the American Dream; all of which must be considered, calculated and prioritized for America's future generations.
 

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I agree; but the reason those laws aren't being enforced isn't because they're hard to enforce.....it's because government has simply refused to.

And "illegal aliens" should only receive treatment for life threatening conditions; and reported to ICE for immediate deportation.

Illegal Immigration will absolutely not stop until government is held accountable for enforcing our laws with no regard to political correctness!

But for now: Establishment Republicans support illegal immigration for cheap labor and Democrats promote illegal immigration for their votes.
Establishment Republicans have had the levers of government for four years and haven't chosen to do what you seem to think it so easy.


We can only hope the US legal system considers Immigration law a higher priority than political correctness.

Because prioritizing political correctness is how we got in this awful mess in the first place.....and other messes as well.
Political correctness is not what causes illegal immigration. This is a conservative talking point meant to demonize the left.

Illegal immigration exists not because we refuse to control it, but because we can't.


The United States does have a legal immigration system in place precisely for these very reasons.

I know this for a fact because my mother and father went through this long legal process to become US citizens.
Correct. I am not in favor of illegal immigration.

I am arguing that erecting walls and passing draconian laws will not solve it.

There are roughly 8 billion people in the world and probably half of them, if not more, fit the illegal immigrant profile you have described.

Imagine you're the captain of a life boat out to sea that is filled to capacity, and a thousand people are franticly swimming toward your boat.

What do you do??? Waste time rationalizing a very bad choice??? Or put on your big boy pants and go with common sense and reasoning???

And please don't rationalize with "the US isn't at capacity" because this ain't about real estate it's about resources, security, quality of life and the American Dream; all of which must be considered, calculated and prioritized for America's future generations.
The flaw in your analogy is that the captain of the boat has a choice on whether or not to let the swimmers aboard. The US has no choice when it comes to illegal immigration. As long as the US is a successful country, people are going to want to come here. Most will do it legally. Some will ALWAYS do it illegally. The harder it is to come here legally, the more will come here illegally.
 

Empirica

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Establishment Republicans have had the levers of government for four years and haven't chosen to do what you seem to think it so easy.
Political correctness is not what causes illegal immigration. This is a conservative talking point meant to demonize the left.
Illegal immigration exists not because we refuse to control it, but because we can't.
Correct. I am not in favor of illegal immigration.

I am arguing that erecting walls and passing draconian laws will not solve it.
Your words I highlighted in red speaks volumes too your actual position on immigration.

Especially the word "draconian".....You are extremely Politically Correct. (whether you admit it or not)

And you have absolutely no desire to stop illegal immigration and are likely a fan of open borders...

The flaw in your analogy is that the captain of the boat has a choice on whether or not to let the swimmers aboard. The US has no choice when it comes to illegal immigration. As long as the US is a successful country, people are going to want to come here. Most will do it legally. Some will ALWAYS do it illegally. The harder it is to come here legally, the more will come here illegally.
Not if illegals are denied participation in the success of the US.........No job.....No American Dream!

Nor can they:_own real estate...own a business...rent a house/apartment...get drivers license...register vehicle/buy tags...receive welfare...

...get married/get divorced...send kids to school...buy plane ticket...enter military...receive amnesty...become US citizen...live with dignity...

But they can:_live like criminals always looking over their shoulder...get arrested/jailed&get deported...have baby&both get deported...

...go to ER&get deported...die&get free cremation...surrender&apologize to every American you pass on the way to your plane for home...

And when you finally get home be sure to tell everyone you see how terrible the people of the United States treat illegal immigrants! 🇺🇸

If this sounds a bit cold and heartless I'd have to agree...but greeting illegals with open arms and free stuff has totally completely failed us!
 

lwf

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Your words I highlighted in red speaks volumes too your actual position on immigration.

Especially the word "draconian".....You are extremely Politically Correct. (whether you admit it or not)

And you have absolutely no desire to stop illegal immigration and are likely a fan of open borders...
Not so. I do not like illegal immigration and do not want completely open borders. I just apparently understand motives of illegal immigrants and the effectiveness of laws meant to discourage them better than you do.


Not if illegals are denied participation in the success of the US.........No job.....No American Dream!

Nor can they:_own real estate...own a business...rent a house/apartment...get drivers license...register vehicle/buy tags...receive welfare...

...get married/get divorced...send kids to school...buy plane ticket...enter military...receive amnesty...become US citizen...live with dignity...

But they can:_live like criminals always looking over their shoulder...get arrested/jailed&get deported...have baby&both get deported...

...go to ER&get deported...die&get free cremation...surrender&apologize to every American you pass on the way to your plane for home...

And when you finally get home be sure to tell everyone you see how terrible the people of the United States treat illegal immigrants! 🇺🇸

If this sounds a bit cold and heartless I'd have to agree...but greeting illegals with open arms and free stuff has totally completely failed us!
You just described the current status of illegal immigrants in the United States. Laws currently deny illegal immigrants the right to work here. They are unable to own real estate, businesses, get driver's licenses, vehicle tags, or receive welfare. Any marriages are not legally recognized, they can't buy plane tickets, nor enter the military. They do, in fact, live as criminals looking over their shoulder in fear of deportation, because that is technically what they are.

Yet many of them manage to do all of these things at some point or another. Why? Not because it is legal, but because violation of the law is not a problem for illegal immigrants, and you can't identify an illegal immigrant by sight.

So how would you change the laws that already outlaw all of the things you complained about above under penalty of deportation? Wall? Change the penalty to incarceration? Summary execution maybe? Not one of these strategies would put a dent in illegal immigration any more than vast empty desert can stop migrants. Unless you address the motive, you are stuck with a constant influx of illegal immigrants and there is nothing more you can do about it.
 

Empirica

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Not so. I do not like illegal immigration and do not want completely open borders. I just apparently understand motives of illegal immigrants and the effectiveness of laws meant to discourage them better than you do.
The white-flaggers who claim illegal immigration cannot be stopped are usually the advocates of amnesty and wide open borders.

By your reasoning; society should no longer enforce any of its laws and empty out its prisons, because there will always be criminals.

You just described the current status of illegal immigrants in the United States. Laws currently deny illegal immigrants the right to work here. They are unable to own real estate, businesses, get driver's licenses, vehicle tags, or receive welfare. Any marriages are not legally recognized, they can't buy plane tickets, nor enter the military.* They do, in fact, live as criminals looking over their shoulder in fear of deportation, because that is technically what they are.

Yet many of them manage to do all of these things at some point or another. Why? Not because it is legal, but because violation of the law is not a problem for illegal immigrants, and you can't identify an illegal immigrant by sight.

So how would you change the laws that already outlaw all of the things you complained about above under penalty of deportation? Wall? Change the penalty to incarceration? Summary execution maybe? Not one of these strategies would put a dent in illegal immigration any more than vast empty desert can stop migrants.
It's true; most of these laws do already exist, with a few exceptions...But as I have said, the problem is enforcement!

Enforce all immigration laws and create severe fines and penalties for anyone who aids and abets or employs illegals.

When the things they came for are no longer available they'll stop coming and those already here will pack and go home.

But; if the laws and penalties don't get enforced, then the illegal immigration problem will continue just as you have said.

*nor enter the military.
I'm pretty sure they can serve in the military...

Unless you address the motive, you are stuck with a constant influx of illegal immigrants and there is nothing more you can do about it.
You have somehow managed to avoid the plain and simple details I have so patiently provided.

It's quite obvious that you either; don't wish to understand or are severely dyslexic.....but we'll try one last time.

Please Focus....The best laws in the world mean nothing when both the criminals and the enforcers ignore them!
 

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The problem is this: There is a backlog of immigration hearing cases that stretch into years in the future.
That "backlog" was caused by the actions of trump.

So...should a person, say...an illegal alien, be allowed to roam around the country for years before their case comes up for a hearing? I don't think so. Should that person be incarcerated for years before their case comes up for a hearing? I don't think so. (An exception would be in the case of violent criminals. They can rot in jail, for all I care.)
What makes them "illegal"? Under US Law they have the right to enter the country, legally or illegally, to seek refuge, and one year after doing so to file an application.

My solution is simple: Give them a court date...even if it is five years in the future...and ship them back to their own country. If they want to appear in court, they can. If not, they can stay where they are.
How many do you hope will die (by assailants, or starving) before they can afford to do so?
 

Mycroft

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That "backlog" was caused by the actions of trump.
The courts have been backlogged for years...long before Trump came along.

What makes them "illegal"? Under US Law they have the right to enter the country, legally or illegally, to seek refuge, and one year after doing so to file an application.
Even those seeking asylum don't have the right to remain in the US...especially during this COVID crisis.

How many do you hope will die (by assailants, or starving) before they can afford to do so?
Screw you.

I don't hope anyone dies...especially American citizens.
 

Empirica

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The case is about a US citizen illegally detained by ICE....how are you going to address that instead of the nonsense you just plastered all over the board?
Ooups.....Silly me; I get a little carried away sometimes.

It's actually quite informative tho…I'm rather proud of it. 🏆
 

Old Trapper

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The courts have been backlogged for years...long before Trump came along.
Surely you are not trying to say trump, and his defunding of the system, has not contributed to the problem?

Even those seeking asylum don't have the right to remain in the US...especially during this COVID crisis.
The LAW, and I know how right wingers hate the law, says you are wrong.

Screw you.

I don't hope anyone dies...especially American citizens.
Then why do you support taking away their health care, or by saying stupid things like they don't have a right to be here?
 

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The 9th Circuit generally rules that the US Constitution is unconstitutional.

An opinion for which you have no evidence. Evidence of fact being a polar opposite of joko MO for which you have no internal compass.
 

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Empirica, do you follow the belief that a person should marry whomever they want, regardless of status and where they are from? As long as that person is an adult and did so by free will?

Also, no, illegal immigrants cannot join the military in order to get a legal status....that was long ago eliminated....it should be an option.
 

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An opinion for which you have no evidence. Evidence of fact being a polar opposite of joko MO for which you have no internal compass.
I don’t know about that. Until Trumps latest 9th circuit pick, they were the most overturned court in the nation. Something to do with “California arrogance”, I hear.

Either way its territory is too big. It originated in 1891. It’s fair to say the country has grown and the 9th has not. It should be broken into three new districts.
 

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The white-flaggers who claim illegal immigration cannot be stopped are usually the advocates of amnesty and wide open borders.

By your reasoning; society should no longer enforce any of its laws and empty out its prisons, because there will always be criminals.
You seem to misunderstand what I said. Once again, I am not for open borders. I am not advocating for the removal of the current laws against illegal immigration. I am simply not in favor of making newer stricter laws or changing enforcement because this will not stop illegal immigration and will only serve to make life harder for U.S. citizens and legal immigrants.

By your reasoning society should create newer more strict and draconian laws since there are still criminals even with the laws currently on the books. Not very libertarian of you.


It's true;
most of these laws do already exist, with a few exceptions...But as I have said, the problem is enforcement!

Enforce all immigration laws and create severe fines and penalties for anyone who aids and abets or employs illegals.

When the things they came for are no longer available they'll stop coming and those already here will pack and go home.

But; if the laws and penalties don't get enforced, then the illegal immigration problem will continue just as you have said.
They are enforced, Empirica. You are mistaken in thinking that because there are cracks in the system that this could be solved with some sort of handwaving "better enforcement" nonsense.

The laws are where they should be regarding illegal immigration, and they are being enforced to the best of our ability. The influx of illegal immigrants we currently see cannot be stopped by any law or enforcement measure you propose. Immigration enforcement is holding an umbrella under a waterfall. No matter how much money you spend making the umbrella strong, you are going to continue to get wet. All we can do is make ourselves marginally drier, and I tend to take exception when tax money is spent on projects that will make us less than 1% drier.
 

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Also, no, illegal immigrants cannot join the military in order to get a legal status....that was long ago eliminated....it should be an option.
 

Empirica

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You seem to misunderstand what I said. Once again, I am not for open borders. I am not advocating for the removal of the current laws against illegal immigration. I am simply not in favor of making newer stricter laws or changing enforcement because this will not stop illegal immigration and will only serve to make life harder for U.S. citizens and legal immigrants.
Now that you've explained what does not work could you please tell me what you believe will work?

And try to be as upfront, honest, and thorough as I've been; so nothing is left to my imagination.

I'm kinda thinking I know what you're going to say.....but I'm really hoping you surprise me instead!

By your reasoning society should create newer more strict and draconian laws since there are still criminals even with the laws currently on the books.
And exactly what laws would you consider "draconian"?

Not very libertarian of you.
Surely you must know that Libertarians are huge fans of both law and enforcement.

They are enforced, Empirica. You are mistaken in thinking that because there are cracks in the system that this could be solved with some sort of handwaving "better enforcement" nonsense.
These cracks in the system are called loopholes as with "anchor babies" and "catch and release" and "sanctuary cities" just to name a few.

And the establishment politicians we keep electing are fixated on prioritizing everybody else's rights over ours.

Until we finally elected a populist President who called the establishment out; and awoke the silent majority.

It had been decades since the SM had been exposed to a truth based on logic rather than political correctness.

The SM had long grown accustomed to the same defeatist reasoning and excuses that you apparently accepted.

We've been suckers of this Rogue Government & MSM too long but we've finally found our instrument of change.

Politics is literally killing America along with Western Civilization; and President Trump is as nonpolitical as it gets.

The laws are where they should be regarding illegal immigration, and they are being enforced to the best of our ability. The influx of illegal immigrants we currently see cannot be stopped by any law or enforcement measure you propose.
So it is your contention that illegals will continue coming to the US regardless of strictly enforced laws that deny them everything they come here for?

Enforced laws that will severely punish anyone who provides jobs or housing or basically all of life's necessities, conveniences and luxuries?

Do you really believe a business will hire illegals when it could be fined $10,000 for each and every worker?

And I've heard the system is pretty much in place to verify an applicants citizenship with one quick phone call.

Fact #1...Illegal Immigration will only end when America commits to never again reward crimes or criminals!

Fact #2...instead of a better life illegals will only find poverty and hopeless expectations of amnesty is all there is!

Immigration enforcement is holding an umbrella under a waterfall. No matter how much money you spend making the umbrella strong, you are going to continue to get wet. All we can do is make ourselves marginally drier, and I tend to take exception when tax money is spent on projects that will make us less than 1% drier.
Oh stop it with this incessant defeatism already, lwf!

We'll simply build a dam upstream and create a new source of clean renewable energy in the process.

And that's how real Americans approach a problem.....with determination and good ole yankee ingenuity.
 

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Now that you've explained what does not work could you please tell me what you believe will work?

And try to be as upfront, honest, and thorough as I've been; so nothing is left to my imagination.

I'm kinda thinking I know what you're going to say.....but I'm really hoping you surprise me instead!
I've already told you what would work. Elevating the standard of living in the countries where the refugees are coming from is guaranteed to all but eliminate illegal immigration into the U.S. from those countries.


And exactly what laws would you consider "draconian"?
Say, eliminating the Fourth Amendment. This would marginally cut down on crime, but I would be against it all the same.


Surely you must know that Libertarians are huge fans of both law and enforcement.
No, you are thinking of conservatives. (And liberals if we're being honest. Both love to make new laws.) Libertarians are for establishing the minimum laws required to protect individual freedoms. Hence the "Liber" in libertarian.


These cracks in the system are called loopholes as with "anchor babies" and "catch and release" and "sanctuary cities" just to name a few.

And the establishment politicians we keep electing are fixated on prioritizing everybody else's rights over ours.

Until we finally elected a populist President who called the establishment out; and awoke the silent majority.

It had been decades since the SM had been exposed to a truth based on logic rather than political correctness.

The SM had long grown accustomed to the same defeatist reasoning and excuses that you apparently accepted.

We've been suckers of this Rogue Government & MSM too long but we've finally found our instrument of change.

Politics is literally killing America along with Western Civilization; and President Trump is as nonpolitical as it gets.
And how are the illegal immigration numbers under that "populist president?"


So it is your contention that illegals will continue coming to the US regardless of strictly enforced laws that deny them everything they come here for?

Enforced laws that will severely punish anyone who provides jobs or housing or basically all of life's necessities, conveniences and luxuries?

Do you really believe a business will hire illegals when it could be fined $10,000 for each and every worker?

And I've heard the system is pretty much in place to verify an applicants citizenship with one quick phone call.

Fact #1...Illegal Immigration will only end when America commits to never again reward crimes or criminals!

Fact #2...instead of a better life illegals will only find poverty and hopeless expectations of amnesty is all there is!

Oh stop it with this incessant defeatism already, lwf!

We'll simply build a dam upstream and create a new source of clean renewable energy in the process.

And that's how real Americans approach a problem.....with determination and good ole yankee ingenuity.
Yes, that is my contention. While I admire your idealism, it is not realistic. People who came before you had the same notions you do. They tried them, and they didn't work out nearly as well as they hoped.

I am fine with fining businesses who hire illegal aliens. That is also a law that is already on the books, however: It is against the law to hire illegal immigrants everywhere in the U.S. Lo and behold, they still get hired. "Better enforcement" is not a plan, it's a wish.
 

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you misunderstand that statute...that does not apply to immigrants that do not have residency.
 

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Your words I highlighted in red speaks volumes too your actual position on immigration.

Especially the word "draconian".....You are extremely Politically Correct. (whether you admit it or not)

And you have absolutely no desire to stop illegal immigration and are likely a fan of open borders...


Not if illegals are denied participation in the success of the US.........No job.....No American Dream!

Nor can they:_own real estate...own a business...rent a house/apartment...get drivers license...register vehicle/buy tags...receive welfare...

...get married/get divorced...send kids to school...buy plane ticket...enter military...receive amnesty...become US citizen...live with dignity...

But they can:_live like criminals always looking over their shoulder...get arrested/jailed&get deported...have baby&both get deported...

...go to ER&get deported...die&get free cremation...surrender&apologize to every American you pass on the way to your plane for home...

And when you finally get home be sure to tell everyone you see how terrible the people of the United States treat illegal immigrants! 🇺🇸

If this sounds a bit cold and heartless I'd have to agree...but greeting illegals with open arms and free stuff has totally completely failed us!
if you deny a US citizen the right to marry whomever they choose, including an undocumented immigrant or any immigrant for that matter...you are denying that US citizen due process and equal protection under law...the fact is that there are millions of US citizens married in mixed status households.
 

Empirica

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I've already told you what would work. Elevating the standard of living in the countries where the refugees are coming from is guaranteed to all but eliminate illegal immigration into the U.S. from those countries.
I assume you're suggesting we send them America's jobs and money.

Sort of like paying off countries that hold the US hostage to illegal immigration.

I'm starting to suspect all of your solutions put the burden on the US for the rest of world's problems.

Every third world country on earth would be exporting human bargaining chips to the US to get a share of the payoff.

Say, eliminating the Fourth Amendment. This would marginally cut down on crime, but I would be against it all the same.
I too am against eliminating the 4th amendment as it is imperative to our freedom yet very little impact on illegal immigration

I'm also supportive of the 14Amendment although it's imperative that it be amended to no longer apply to babies born to non citizens in the US.

No, you are thinking of conservatives. (And liberals if we're being honest. Both love to make new laws.) Libertarians are for establishing the minimum laws required to protect individual freedoms. Hence the "Liber" in libertarian.
We Libertarians love freedom and believe in bare minimum government regulation and absolute necessary laws only.

But Libertarians are not anarchists.....we obey and support law enforcement, even the laws we want to see rescinded.

And we will continue obeying them and supporting their enforcement until they are legally removed from the books.

Conservatives also standout as law abiding citizens and staunch supporters of the police who enforce our laws.

But liberals are known for their selective obedience, support and creation of laws that apply to everyone but them.

And how are the illegal immigration numbers under that "populist president?"
Even a President's power gets restricted when congress and stacked courts literally block every move to fix immigration.

Have you ever seen a President so viciously hated and attacked literally everyday of his first term by the opposing party?

I will say one thing about Donald Trump.....he is the toughest most determined President to ever grace the Oval Office!

Yes, that is my contention. While I admire your idealism, it is not realistic. People who came before you had the same notions you do. They tried them, and they didn't work out nearly as well as they hoped.

I am fine with fining businesses who hire illegal aliens. That is also a law that is already on the books, however: It is against the law to hire illegal immigrants everywhere in the U.S. Lo and behold, they still get hired. "Better enforcement" is not a plan, it's a wish.
I have a theory.....Actually, it's borderline certainty:

It's not so much you believing it can't be fixed as it is not wanting it fixed...

Is it possible you're actually a liberal in wolf's clothing?!
 

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I assume you're suggesting we send them America's jobs and money.

Sort of like paying off countries that hold the US hostage to illegal immigration.

I'm starting to suspect all of your solutions put the burden on the US for the rest of world's problems.

Every third world country on earth would be exporting human bargaining chips to the US to get a share of the payoff.
I'm not sure what the last sentence means, but the first three are correct. This is the one and only "solution" to illegal immigration. This is the proverbial rerouting of the river so that we don't have to stand under the waterfall holding only an umbrella. I agree that it's not very realistic given the short-sighted xenophobia of conservatives. Hence my conclusion that there is nothing that can be done to stem the tide of illegal immigration. Since I am fine with not sending American tax dollars to other countries to improve them at the expense of my own country, I am therefore fine with the current level of illegal immigration that we are seeing. Making new laws or telling the people enforcing the existing laws to "enforce better" is a waste of time and money.

I too am against eliminating the 4th amendment as it is imperative to our freedom yet very little impact on illegal immigration

I'm also supportive of the 14Amendment although it's imperative that it be amended to no longer apply to babies born to non citizens in the US.
Why is this imperative? Isn't this punishing people who never committed a crime? Being brought to another country without your consent as a child isn't your criminal act, it's the criminal act of the person who brought you. If you grow up and establish a support structure with family and friends, what would you do if you were suddenly seized by the authorities and escorted to a country you've never been to before and told not to come back?

Even a President's power gets restricted when congress and stacked courts literally block every move to fix immigration.

Have you ever seen a President so viciously hated and attacked literally everyday of his first term by the opposing party?

I will say one thing about Donald Trump.....he is the toughest most determined President to ever grace the Oval Office!
Never. Because of this, it is clear that the hatred is entirely of his own making. What I will give him is that he is the dumbest, most short-sighted, and most stubborn President ever to occupy the Oval Office.
 

bluesmoke

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I don’t know about that. Until Trumps latest 9th circuit pick, they were the most overturned court in the nation. Something to do with “California arrogance”, I hear.

Either way its territory is too big. It originated in 1891. It’s fair to say the country has grown and the 9th has not. It should be broken into three new districts.

In one single term, the 9th was the most reversed circuit court. But over time, it was 4th of the 11 circuits.


You're first sentence was the correct one.
 

Mycroft

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Proof right wingers don't care about actual and express laws. Why be hypocrites against the less fortunate?
Sorry Dan, but that is just about the most stupid thing I've seen anyone say today.

You are dismissed.
 

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Read what that says.....this is in reference to LPR's naturalizing not illegal immigrants or other than residents.

 
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