• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A Failed Socialist State

name two developed, 1st world countries that dont have, by your ridiculously melodramatic description, a centralized planned economy, the corruption born of parastatalism and mass party buerachracy, and the autarkik protection of key industries. Or is is possible that they too have universal healthcare similar to Cuba without those expenses?

I don't understand your question. I can name dozens of countries that do not have a centralized planned economy, parastatal and mass one party state bueracracy inducing corruption, and autarkik industrial and sector protection. Let's just pick Canada and the UK. The issue isn't the universal healthcare system, it's everything else. Moreover yes I'd say Canada and Britain have a better health care system than Cuba by a fantastic margin.
 
I don't understand your question. I can name dozens of countries that do not have a centralized planned economy, parastatal and mass one party state bueracracy inducing corruption, and autarkik industrial and sector protection. Let's just pick Canada and the UK. The issue isn't the universal healthcare system, it's everything else. Moreover yes I'd say Canada and Britain have a better health care system than Cuba by a fantastic margin.

Exactly, which just shows you that cuba's health system doesnt have to be connected to any of those fearsome adjectives you used at all
 
Exactly, which just shows you that cuba's health system doesnt have to be connected to any of those fearsome adjectives you used at all

Cuba's healthcare system is a product of the centrally planned Cuban state that was created in 1959 and would not have developed the way it did (the emphasis on medical internationalism for one) without it. My point was that the subjective good of the Cuban health care system cannot be raised up at the expense of overlooking the devastating impact of the state and system that produced it. It was not an invective against universal healthcare.
 
Spriggs, countries that call themselves socialists and that have failed economically you do not call it as such and name them communists. Countries that are communists you name them with something completely new. I know you want to give it a shot with socialism but this now seems to be a game of naming.

How do you define China as communist or socialsit then? There is no way it objectively can. It's means of production are far from commonly owned and, in fact, it has less regulations on private industry then the United States.
 
How do you define China as communist or socialsit then? There is no way it objectively can. It's means of production are far from commonly owned and, in fact, it has less regulations on private industry then the United States.

China is communist. They proudly claim it to be so. People's Republic Of China. Wherever I see "People's" I take it to be a Communist country. Where I see "Socialist" I take it to be a socialist country, such as USSR for instance.
 
China is communist. They proudly claim it to be so. People's Republic Of China. Wherever I see "People's" I take it to be a Communist country. Where I see "Socialist" I take it to be a socialist country, such as USSR for instance.

China is in fact ran by a communist party, but it has a mixed market economy just like us, and no features that would define it as Communist in a Marxist fashion.

The definition of socialism tends to broader, but really I don't see how China could fit that either, authoritarian capitalist state seems more fitting.

If we went by names we would have to call the democratic people's republic of Korea a democratic republic, which seems a stretch.
 
China is communist. They proudly claim it to be so. People's Republic Of China. Wherever I see "People's" I take it to be a Communist country. Where I see "Socialist" I take it to be a socialist country, such as USSR for instance.

That might be the worst logic I've ever heard. If the communist party changed it's name to the Peace, Love, Freedom, and Democracy Party without changing their policies would you suggest they support peace, love, freedom, and democracy?
 
China is in fact ran by a communist party, but it has a mixed market economy just like us, and no features that would define it as Communist in a Marxist fashion.

The definition of socialism tends to broader, but really I don't see how China could fit that either, authoritarian capitalist state seems more fitting.

If we went by names we would have to call the democratic people's republic of Korea a democratic republic, which seems a stretch.

And since we are going by names, I disagree that China is in any way either a "Republic" or run by/for the benefit of the "People."
 
That might be the worst logic I've ever heard. If the communist party changed it's name to the Peace, Love, Freedom, and Democracy Party without changing their policies would you suggest they support peace, love, freedom, and democracy?

And stating that a voted party in charge of a country could change its name to "Peace, Love, Freedom, and Democracy Party" is logical then?
 
And stating that a voted party in charge of a country could change its name to "Peace, Love, Freedom, and Democracy Party" is logical then?

well, take a real example: "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea" I guess NK is a democratic republic? The DDR was democratic?
 
well, take a real example: "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea" I guess NK is a democratic republic?

Interesting how a very same question on the same topic rises. Yeah, I went through with this notion with another forum user. It is the "People's" part in the name that ruins the "Democracy" of it in NK.
 
Interesting how a very same question on the same topic rises. Yeah, I went through with this notion with another forum user. It is the "People's" part in the name that ruins the "Democracy" of it in NK.

And what part of DDR are you going to try some semantic irrelevancy on? The names that a bunch of interested parties think up for themselves during some board meeting are NOT scientific terms.
 
And what part of DDR are you going to try some semantic irrelevancy on?

Well I'd think I may start with PTM, and slowly proceed with RTC, and finalize with PQT cause those are my favorite QSM's. If they don't work I can always use WRS of course but don't want to be too modest.
 
Well I'd think I may start with PTM, and slowly proceed with RTC, and finalize with PQT cause those are my favorite QSM's. If they don't work I can always use WRS of course but don't want to be too modest.

So, you have no answer, in other words. What an intelligent, honest person does here is think, "hmmm, if I cant answer that, maybe my theory is wrong?" Think about it.
 
So, you have no answer, in other words. What an intelligent, honest person does here is think, "hmmm, if I cant answer that, maybe my theory is wrong?" Think about it.

Actually I provided an exact answer to your "DDR." You assume everyone should know for what they stand for?
 
Well yea, but then we get caught in the circular logic of socialists who decry "a real socialist state has never existed."
Which I would keep answering, it can't because, currently, it won't work.

Well then, you'd have to apply that logic to a libertarian state. One has never existed because it could not exist, it would not work. I think it's faulty logic to argue that something has never existed because it could not work. That will never be anything other than a subjective opinion.
 
Well then, you'd have to apply that logic to a libertarian state. One has never existed because it could not exist, it would not work. I think it's faulty logic to argue that something has never existed because it could not work. That will never be anything other than a subjective opinion.

I agree with the former, a perfect libertarian state can not exist.
I don't live in fantasy land here.

I'm only grouped as a libertarian because pro state (or a better term, bigger government) liberals took over the term that better describes me.
 
I agree with the former, a perfect libertarian state can not exist.
I don't live in fantasy land here.

I'm only grouped as a libertarian because pro state (or a better term, bigger government) liberals took over the term that better describes me.

Well, of course utopian states cannot exist. They wouldn't be utopian if they did. Perfection cannot exist in the natural world, hence we will never achieve 'pure' anything, be it communism, libertarianism, free markets or anarchy. Those utopian ideals are theoretical, rhetorical and designed to inspire. Similarly, these funny and frequently recurring threads about socialist states (which states are socialist, which aren't, which have failed, which were never socialist to begin with) all miss the point. In comparison with a right libertarian utopian ideal, all states are failed libertarian states, even, or especially the USA, because they all pursue elements of libertarian thinking allied with elements of statist, socialist, authoritarian and militarist policy and behaviour. In the same way, all states that have ever existed that called themselves, or were called socialist by others, failed because they too combined authoritarian, capitalistic, socialistic, militaristic, and democratic elements

The relevant point about, for example, the USSR is that it was an experiment in a different kind of political and social organisation that failed. As did Nazi Germany, and the Confederate States of America, and the French First Republic, and the English Commonwealth. All of those failed states combined many elements of various political ideologies and approaches, some socialistic, some nationalistic, some religiously-driven and some democratic. What failed in each and every one was the particular experiment, a combination of ideas, syndicates and individuals that was unique and about as far from 'pure' anything as anything can be. The ideas of socialism, libertarianism, nationalism, democracy or fascism do not cease to contain philosophical insight, whether you value that insight or not, solely because states or experiments where their tenets have been invoked or attempted, have failed.

There are elements of many ideologies that have been practiced to great success. There are elements of socialist ideology operating well in many, many countries, including the US, in forms that are far closer to 'pure' ideas deriving from Marxism than were ever tried in the USSR. The 'failure of socialism' as exemplified by the fall of the USSR and its satellites, was the failure of one interpretation of what socialism might mean. The reason I think socialism has far more to offer humanity than, say Nazism, is because elements of it are to be found influencing and inspiring successful regimes or elements of government all over the world, even in countries where the use of the word socialism has taken on bogeyman properties.

You might say the same about capitalism in countries like China and Vietnam, where it also possesses bogeyman status, yet who'd deny that elements of capitalism are alive and, relatively, well in so-called communist states? You can't say the same about Nazism, can you?
 
Well, of course utopian states cannot exist. They wouldn't be utopian if they did. Perfection cannot exist in the natural world, hence we will never achieve 'pure' anything, be it communism, libertarianism, free markets or anarchy. Those utopian ideals are theoretical, rhetorical and designed to inspire. Similarly, these funny and frequently recurring threads about socialist states (which states are socialist, which aren't, which have failed, which were never socialist to begin with) all miss the point. In comparison with a right libertarian utopian ideal, all states are failed libertarian states, even, or especially the USA, because they all pursue elements of libertarian thinking allied with elements of statist, socialist, authoritarian and militarist policy and behaviour. In the same way, all states that have ever existed that called themselves, or were called socialist by others, failed because they too combined authoritarian, capitalistic, socialistic, militaristic, and democratic elements

The relevant point about, for example, the USSR is that it was an experiment in a different kind of political and social organisation that failed. As did Nazi Germany, and the Confederate States of America, and the French First Republic, and the English Commonwealth. All of those failed states combined many elements of various political ideologies and approaches, some socialistic, some nationalistic, some religiously-driven and some democratic. What failed in each and every one was the particular experiment, a combination of ideas, syndicates and individuals that was unique and about as far from 'pure' anything as anything can be. The ideas of socialism, libertarianism, nationalism, democracy or fascism do not cease to contain philosophical insight, whether you value that insight or not, solely because states or experiments where their tenets have been invoked or attempted, have failed.

There are elements of many ideologies that have been practiced to great success. There are elements of socialist ideology operating well in many, many countries, including the US, in forms that are far closer to 'pure' ideas deriving from Marxism than were ever tried in the USSR. The 'failure of socialism' as exemplified by the fall of the USSR and its satellites, was the failure of one interpretation of what socialism might mean. The reason I think socialism has far more to offer humanity than, say Nazism, is because elements of it are to be found influencing and inspiring successful regimes or elements of government all over the world, even in countries where the use of the word socialism has taken on bogeyman properties.

You might say the same about capitalism in countries like China and Vietnam, where it also possesses bogeyman status, yet who'd deny that elements of capitalism are alive and, relatively, well in so-called communist states? You can't say the same about Nazism, can you?

I'm someone who values the positive that any ideology brings.
There are some real, good things that are naturally imbued in socialism, cooperativeness/mutual aid being one.

I didn't say, socialism is horridly wrong, I even later argued that it could exist, if we can find a way to reduce/end scarcity.
Which for me, would be just dandy.
I think I've said this before, I believe that capitalism, enables the potential for socialism to exist.
Not because capitalism fails, but because it succeeds.

Two points of contention though, with your examples.
Today, I'd argue that most developed nations run on a modified system, that the Nazi's used.
Not the racial superiority crap, but actual government function.
In fact, pre Nazi Germany (not the Wiemar republic, but the Prussian Empire) was the originator of many modern government functions.
The CSA never fully operated as an independent government, in my opinion.
 
I didn't say, socialism is horridly wrong, I even later argued that it could exist, if we can find a way to reduce/end scarcity.

One might say we have a way already. technology. we just dont have that goal.
 
One might say we have a way already. technology. we just dont have that goal.

It doesn't have to be directed at all.
Technology and capitalism attempts to reduce scarcity and increase efficiency (generally speaking) on it's own.

To me, it happening is likely a forgone conclusion, it's just a good ways down the road.
 
It doesn't have to be directed at all.
Technology and capitalism attempts to reduce scarcity and increase efficiency (generally speaking) on it's own.

To me, it happening is likely a forgone conclusion, it's just a good ways down the road.

Capitalism supports scarcity as scarcity produces profit.
 
I don't believe that, by and large.
As long as a competitor has similar access to create similar products/services, it will create more as competition for dollars.

Competition is not the natural end product of capitalism however. Capitalism throughout history has shown a tendency to centralize. Furthermore, corporations have always had a tendency to conspire together. Whatever creates a profit will be the end result of a system that promotes only profit. Thus scarcity is good for capitalism.
 
Back
Top Bottom