A Christmas Story

[steen]

Again the choice is made when you decide to have sex.

False.

Abortion kills another human being,

False.

It does not matter what stage of developement that human being is in

False.

The Baby in the womb

False.

is a human being.

False.

DNA proves this.

False.

Do you favor using abortion as birth control? Because that is what your post sound like.

Well, it controls birth.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

finally we have something in common jp! My mother and I both believe that the choice is made when you have sex. This is the reason my almost 9 year old brother mark is alive today. When mom was pregnant with him, we weren't in a good financial situation and I was 8, My other brother carl was 7.

I don't think we disagree alot. But it is so true that that "choice' has to made each time we have sex. There are consequences for our choices . We can not abort Aids, STD's, as a society we have to take responsibility for our actions. Not only in issue of abortion, but on other issues enviroment, World hunger, Terrorism, .... Thje choices we make will affect future generations. We have to stop thinking of ourselves and start thinking for future generations. An example is a bag full of food we use the food the bag is empty. The Earth is like that bag of food. Yes it easy to eat when it is full but future generations will have to pay for what we do.

 

[Aurora151989]

steen, i said the same thing about the choice being made when you have sex. How is this false?

 

[FISHX]

It sounds like you are from England my grandmother was from Liverpool. Give your little guy a big hug and kiss from this yank over here.God Bless

Yeah i,m from England not far from Liverpool actualy and little man says thanks for the hug:smile:

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

False.
False.
False.
False.
False.
False.
Well, it controls birth.

steen Your post boar me as you keep beating a dead horse. I am relying on common sense to prevail Oh here is another site for you to explore. Maybe you will learn something. A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.prolifeamerica.com/4D-Ultrasound-pictures/

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Again the choice is made when you decide to have sex. Abortion kills another human being, It does not matter what stage of developement that human being is in The Baby in the womb is a human being. DNA proves this. Do you favor using abortion as birth control? Because that is what your post sound like.

The choice to have sex is made when you have sex. The choice to bear a child is made when a woman discovers she is pregnant, and makes the choice to bear the child or not. Forcing a woman to bear a child to term is enslaving another human being. It does not matter what reason you have for doing this, what ends you think justify these means; nothing does. It is slavery, and it is unforgivable. Common sense proves this. Do you favor turning women into mindless sex slaves? Because that is what your post sounds like.

Rhetoric can't win you the argument, sir. I stand by the idea that a woman has to be able to control her own body. If you want the child to live through the woman's choice, invent a way to remove a fetus from the woman who no longer wants it, other than birth/c-section. Otherwise, the child/fetus/what have you is an unfortunate victim of the need to protect freedom in this country. I choose freedom over the lives of those children. If you want to vilify me for that, go ahead; I still choose freedom.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

The choice to have sex is made when you have sex. The choice to bear a child is made when a woman discovers she is pregnant, and makes the choice to bear the child or not. Forcing a woman to bear a child to term is enslaving another human being. It does not matter what reason you have for doing this, what ends you think justify these means; nothing does. It is slavery, and it is unforgivable. Common sense proves this. Do you favor turning women into mindless sex slaves? Because that is what your post sounds like.

HMMM You mean to tell me that a women has to wait to get pregnant before she decides if she wants to keep the Baby or kill the baby. That is ridiculas, can you say Birth control for "BOTH" partners. I favor laws that would make the male pay child support during the pregnancy. I favor making both parties responsible for their actions.

Rhetoric can't win you the argument, sir. I stand by the idea that a woman has to be able to control her own body. If you want the child to live through the woman's choice, invent a way to remove a fetus from the woman who no longer wants it, other than birth/c-section. Otherwise, the child/fetus/what have you is an unfortunate victim of the need to protect freedom in this country. I choose freedom over the lives of those children. If you want to vilify me for that, go ahead; I still choose freedom.

So now who will pay for using a device to keep the baby alive during pregnancy? hmm The couple is responsible for bringing the baby into the world. I bet you, you would oppose making the couple resposible for paying for the care of the baby when the baby is in such a device. I do villify you.

I choose freedom over the lives of those children. If you want to vilify me for that, go ahead; I still choose freedom

Odd way to describe putting to death another human being . Now another word in the pro abortion dictionary to describe killing anothe human being. Freedom?? for who the person that will have an abortion and suffer the guilt (maybe) Freedom for the person being ripped to threads through the abortion process?? I also note you will not answer if you favor using abortion as birth control ?? steen I know how you feel and so does everyone else. but it won't surprise me if you continue to beat a dead horse.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

So now who will pay for using a device to keep the baby alive during pregnancy? hmm The couple is responsible for bringing the baby into the world. I bet you, you would oppose making the couple resposible for paying for the care of the baby when the baby is in such a device. I do villify you.

Sure, the couple should have to pay for the device. I have no problem with that. The choices don't have to be easy; the choice is not easy now. But there must be a choice.

I choose freedom over the lives of those children. If you want to vilify me for that, go ahead; I still choose freedom

Odd way to describe putting to death another human being . Now another word in the pro abortion dictionary to describe killing anothe human being. Freedom?? for who the person that will have an abortion and suffer the guilt (maybe) Freedom for the person being ripped to threads through the abortion process?? I also note you will not answer if you favor using abortion as birth control ?? steen I know how you feel and so does everyone else. but it won't surprise me if you continue to beat a dead horse.

Why would you feel it necessary for me to use your words? Would it make you right, if I called abortion, murder? Would it make me wrong, if I called the freedom to choose, irresponsible behavior from a woman who should have used birth control? I favor the right to have an abortion. Since I personally am not a woman, and I will never impregnate a woman, I refuse to state an opinion on whether or not abortion is a good choice to make. It is not my choice. Therefore, I will not answer your question about abortion as birth control; not because I'm dodging it, but because it is not my decision to make.
Words don't change facts. The fact is: if the government removes the choice to have an abortion, they are forcing women to make the only choice left, which would be to bear the child to term. Since there is no alternative, that is mandating what a woman can do with her own body. That is enslavement. The opposite of enslavement would be freedom; therefore, the right to choose to have an abortion would be, freedom. Call it what you will: it is the only choice America can make.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Sure, the couple should have to pay for the device. I have no problem with that. The choices don't have to be easy; the choice is not easy now. But there must be a choice.


Why would you feel it necessary for me to use your words? Would it make you right, if I called abortion, murder? Would it make me wrong, if I called the freedom to choose, irresponsible behavior from a woman who should have used birth control? I favor the right to have an abortion. Since I personally am not a woman, and I will never impregnate a woman, I refuse to state an opinion on whether or not abortion is a good choice to make. It is not my choice. Therefore, I will not answer your question about abortion as birth control; not because I'm dodging it, but because it is not my decision to make.
Words don't change facts. The fact is: if the government removes the choice to have an abortion, they are forcing women to make the only choice left, which would be to bear the child to term. Since there is no alternative, that is mandating what a woman can do with her own body. That is enslavement. The opposite of enslavement would be freedom; therefore, the right to choose to have an abortion would be, freedom. Call it what you will: it is the only choice America can make.

Why Can't you see the choice should be made before sex. The purpose of sex is to reproduce as well as pleasure. In this day and age there are many different forms of birth control. In my opinion there is no excuse to have an unwanted pregnancy if you do not want to get pregnant use 1 form for the male and 1 form for the female. If you never want to have children snip snip Vesectomy. If a woman never wants to get pregnant Snip Snip Tubes tied all a same day procedure. That is the choice. Again accepting responsibility for ones own actions is not enslavement . That is a ridiculas statement. Again who is responsible for the pregnancy? The choice for enslavement Another word for pregnancy in the pro abortion dictionary. I'll have that dictionary written in no timeif I keep debating you..

:memorial_

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Why Can't you see the choice should be made before sex. The purpose of sex is to reproduce as well as pleasure. In this day and age there are many different forms of birth control. In my opinion there is no excuse to have an unwanted pregnancy if you do not want to get pregnant use 1 form for the male and 1 form for the female. If you never want to have children snip snip Vesectomy. If a woman never wants to get pregnant Snip Snip Tubes tied all a same day procedure. That is the choice. Again accepting responsibility for ones own actions is not enslavement . That is a ridiculas statement. Again who is responsible for the pregnancy? The choice for enslavement Another word for pregnancy in the pro abortion dictionary. I'll have that dictionary written in no timeif I keep debating you.

(Forgive me for removing your colors, etc.; it gets hard on the eyes)
As you say yourself, sex is for reproduction AND for pleasure. Therefore, we cannot treat the choice to have sex as the sole cause of pregnancy; pregnancy also requires certain biological circumstances largely outside of a person's control. Pregnancy is also 9 months long; a woman should have the freedom to choose what she wants to do with her own body at any time during that period, not just before sex. There is no other situation in our society where you are not allowed to change your mind, not when the technology or institution exists for a choice.

Birth control does not always work, not even vasectomies and tubal ligations. Birth control is not always used, even by people who do not want children. Until birth control is 100%, whether you like it or not, there will be unwanted pregnancies, and that means there has to be an option for a woman who does not want to be pregnant. At this point, the only option is abortion. Rather than taking away that opition, try to find another solution: try to encourage the invention of an effective mechanical womb, and a safe and sure transplantation procedure. Then everybody wins.
Until that happy day, abortion is necessary.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

(Forgive me for removing your colors, etc.; it gets hard on the eyes)
Iwas doing it for Christmas, I will uses only green this time.

As you say yourself, sex is for reproduction AND for pleasure. Therefore, we cannot treat the choice to have sex as the sole cause of pregnancy; pregnancy also requires certain biological circumstances largely outside of a person's control.

That is nonsense and you know it. We have discussed many ways to prevent pregnancy. Lets see Visectomy, Tubal ligation, condomes, foam, pills, patches, injections,..... How many different ways do you want?

Pregnancy is also 9 months long; a woman should have the freedom to choose what she wants to do with her own body at any time during that period, not just before sex. There is no other situation in our society where you are not allowed to change your mind, not when the technology or institution exists for a choice.

She already had the choice. You are talking about killing an innocent human being there is no other time in society where you are allowed to do that.

Birth control does not always work, not even vasectomies and tubal ligations.

What are the chances of 2 forms of birth control failing??

Birth control is not always used, even by people who do not want children.

Now who"s fault is that. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. If males had to pay child support all during the pregnancy there would be fewer abortions.

Until birth control is 100%, whether you like it or not, there will be unwanted pregnancies, and that means there has to be an option for a woman who does not want to be pregnant

The Options are birth control at least 2 but you can use more. Soon abortions will be up to the states then it will be up to the people not the courts. Most people oppose abortion on demand. The last several elections have shown that.
.

At this point, the only option is abortion. Rather than taking away that opition, try to find another solution: try to encourage the invention of an effective mechanical womb, and a safe and sure transplantation procedure. Then everybody wins.

In Japan a device exist but the question remains who pays for it? Who is responsible? Who is at fault for an unwanted pregnancy? If abortion was made ilegal there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies.

Until that happy day, abortion is necessary.

No it is not personal responsibility is necessary Killing an innocent human being is never necessary. As I pointed out today we have ways to prevent pregnancy. Why would anyone want to kill a baby just for having the freedom to have sexual gratification. Is it worth a human life?

 

[CoffeeSaint]

As you say yourself, sex is for reproduction AND for pleasure. Therefore, we cannot treat the choice to have sex as the sole cause of pregnancy; pregnancy also requires certain biological circumstances largely outside of a person's control.

That is nonsense and you know it. We have discussed many ways to prevent pregnancy. Lets see Visectomy, Tubal ligation, condomes, foam, pills, patches, injections,..... How many different ways do you want?

Birth control is not the issue. Sex is not the issue. Related, of course; but not the central topic. As I said, pregnancy relies on many things: ovulation, viable sperm, successful implantation, hormone production, etc., etc. It cannot be absolutely predicted, and it cannot be absolutely prevented, except by abstinence. If your position is that we should ban sex, that is a different argument, isn't it? Birth control is a secondary issue, because 1)no birth control is 100%, not two methods, not three, not fifty; there is still the chance that a woman could get pregnant, and the laws must consider that exception that tests the rule. and 2) rapists do not use birth control, and yet rape impregnates women.

I want the woman to have this choice: if she is pregnant, and does not want to be pregnant, she does not have to be pregnant any longer. She should not have to wait nine months, and go through the entire ordeal of pregnancy, in order not to be pregnant.

Pregnancy is also 9 months long; a woman should have the freedom to choose what she wants to do with her own body at any time during that period, not just before sex. There is no other situation in our society where you are not allowed to change your mind, not when the technology or institution exists for a choice.

She already had the choice. You are talking about killing an innocent human being there is no other time in society where you are allowed to do that.

Sure there is. When two patients come into the E.R., and the doctor chooses to work on one and not the other, the unfortunate one dies by the doctor's choice. Legal. If two kids are trapped in a burning house, and I save one but not the other, I let the second child die. Legal. If someone accidentally breaks into my house -- let's say a drunk, or someone with schizophrenia -- and I shoot them, I would probably be absolved of guilt, because I had a reasonable suspicion. Yet they were innocent, and I killed them. Legal. Do you need more?

Now, give me an example of a decision you cannot take back, legally.

Birth control does not always work, not even vasectomies and tubal ligations.

What are the chances of 2 forms of birth control failing??

Small. But not zero. I don't want to enslave that one unlucky woman any more than the thousands who have unwanted pregnancies now.

Birth control is not always used, even by people who do not want children.

Now who"s fault is that. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. If males had to pay child support all during the pregnancy there would be fewer abortions.

Thank you for mentioning crime. I was referring to rapists. This idea that men paying child support would lead to fewer pregnancies is not true, in my opinion. Men have societal pressure to stand by the woman now, and they don't. Why would money make a difference? Do you seriously think that a 16 year old boy is going to think, "Crap, I don't have a condom, and if she gets pregnant, I'll have to pay child support. I better not have sex with her." Because I don't think he would do that.

Until birth control is 100%, whether you like it or not, there will be unwanted pregnancies, and that means there has to be an option for a woman who does not want to be pregnant.

The Options are birth control at least 2 but you can use more. Soon abortions will be up to the states then it will be up to the people not the courts. Most people oppose abortion on demand. The last several elections have shown that.

I'm talking about an option after she finds she is pregnant. Birth control is useless at that point, and a law mandating she carry the child to term would be slavery. As for this idea that the majority of people oppose abortion, why is it still legal? If Roe v. Wade is so sure to be overturned, why hasn't it been in the last 30 years?

At this point, the only option is abortion. Rather than taking away that opition, try to find another solution: try to encourage the invention of an effective mechanical womb, and a safe and sure transplantation procedure. Then everybody wins.

In Japan a device exist but the question remains who pays for it? Who is responsible? Who is at fault for an unwanted pregnancy? If abortion was made ilegal there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies.

Can you give me a link that shows this machine? I would like to see it. And it doesn't mean there is an effective transplant surgery, which is the larger obstacle, anyway. Without that, the mechanical womb is fairly pointless. If it were possible to do this, the woman should have to pay for it; she has to pay for the abortion now. And this idea that there will be fewer unwanted pregnancies has no proof, does it? Our wishful thinking should not determine our laws.

Until that happy day, abortion is necessary.

No it is not personal responsibility is necessary Killing an innocent human being is never necessary. As I pointed out today we have ways to prevent pregnancy. Why would anyone want to kill a baby just for having the freedom to have sexual gratification. Is it worth a human life?

We do not have ways to end pregnancy, and that is the issue. Killing innocent human beings is sometimes necessary; look at the casualties of war. Why would anyone want to enslave a woman just to save a baby that she does not want? What are you really saving? Who are you really helping? The baby is not killed for the sake of sexual gratification, it is killed for the sake of freedom, and sometimes, people have to die so that others may be free. It is sad, but it is a choice we often have to make. I do not believe the lives of the children are worth more than the lives, and the liberty, or their mothers. Why do you? Is it because the women had sex, and that makes them bad in your eyes? How then do you oppose abortion in the case of rape? Why do you support slavery?

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Here, so that you don't have to reply to my gargantuan post, here's a synopsis:
A woman needs to be able to make the choice not to be pregnant if she does not want to be pregnant. If it was possible for a woman to make that choice, without aborting the fetus, that would be fine; but she must be able to make that choice. While a ban on sex, or a 100% effective, universally administered birth control, would both prevent the necessity of abortions, neither one is realistic. Abortion does not make sex bad, nor does it make people who have abortions bad. A woman's past actions do not mandate that she must lose control of her body, and in the case of rape, she should not have to pay for her victimization with more victimization. Banning abortion will make women slaves, and that is unacceptable.

 

[ngdawg]

And, enlarging and colorizing your constant repetitious 3 sentences and bad spelling does not make them or you any more relevant; in fact, it makes it easier to skim past anything you might have to say and read those who actually have something to add.
You obviously don't get that forcing someone to do something against their will is unacceptable nor do you get that any decision made on the personal life of someone is their own responsibility-that just making a decision is a responsibility in itself. I truly hope that you are not raising your kids in such a tyrannical manner, but somehow, I doubt it.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

And, enlarging and colorizing your constant repetitious 3 sentences and bad spelling does not make them or you any more relevant; in fact, it makes it easier to skim past anything you might have to say and read those who actually have something to add.
You obviously don't get that forcing someone to do something against their will is unacceptable nor do you get that any decision made on the personal life of someone is their own responsibility-that just making a decision is a responsibility in itself. I truly hope that you are not raising your kids in such a tyrannical manner, but somehow, I doubt it.

Making People accept responsibility for their own actions is not enslavement. that is ridiculas. Not accepting responsibility is childlish. So to all the Pro abortion crowd

Grow UP

 

[Aurora151989]

Making People accept responsibility for their own actions is not enslavement. that is ridiculas. Not accepting responsibility is childlish. So to all the Pro abortion crowd

Grow UP

Imagine you are there.... http://listas.rcp.net.pe/pipermail/salud/2002-August/000494.html

what would you have told medina to do???

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Imagine you are there.... http://listas.rcp.net.pe/pipermail/salud/2002-August/000494.html

what would you have told medina to do???

I guess the people who handled the medical portion of the case did the right thing as medina life was protected as well as the baby's life. If a womens life is in danger then I think if she decides to abort it is justified. Asa the Baby probally would not survive if the Mom died during pregnancy.

As far as the goverment of Peru they have never protected their children many are forced to work in sweat shops and mines. There should be UN sanctions.

 

[steen]

Making People accept responsibility for their own actions is not enslavement.

But forcing people to give of their bodily resources against their will IS enslavement.

that is ridiculas.

Oh, Good one. "You are all wrong, just because I say so. My emotions are facts." Your arguments are getting silly.

Not accepting responsibility is childlish.

Deciding on an abortion is to take responsibility, your warped revisionist linguistics none withstanding.

So to all the Pro abortion crowd

Grow UP

Ah, another spiffy pro-slavery ad hominem.:roll:

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

But forcing people to give of their bodily resources against their will IS enslavement.
Oh, Good one. "You are all wrong, just because I say so. My emotions are facts." Your arguments are getting silly.
Deciding on an abortion is to take responsibility, your warped revisionist linguistics none withstanding.
Ah, another spiffy pro-slavery ad hominem.:roll:

To put it simply without wasting a bunch of time. I disagree

 

[vergiss]

A question for Proudly Pro Life JP Freem and others:

Let's say I get into my car to drive to the movies, or to school. Everyone knows there's always a risk of an accident when you travel in a car, but that doesn't stop people from driving. So let's assume that this one hypothetical day, despite all my precautions and safe driving, another driver collides head-on with my car, and I suffer serious injuries as a result. Is it just my "responsibility" to accept that there was always a risk of accident, and the paramedics should let me die so that I won't waste taxpayers' money getting treatment and so my organs to go to other people?

 

[FISHX]

A question for Proudly Pro Life JP Freem and others:

Let's say I get into my car to drive to the movies, or to school. Everyone knows there's always a risk of an accident when you travel in a car, but that doesn't stop people from driving. So let's assume that this one hypothetical day, despite all my precautions and safe driving, another driver collides head-on with my car, and I suffer serious injuries as a result. Is it just my "responsibility" to accept that there was always a risk of accident, and the paramedics should let me die so that I won't waste taxpayers' money getting treatment and so my organs to go to other people?

Of course the paramedics should treat you everyone has the right to live.

 

[steen]

steen Your post boar me as you keep beating a dead horse.

If you didn't repeatedly spew outright falsehoods, I wouldn't have to repeat myself in pointing them out.

I am relying on common sense to prevail Oh here is another site for you to explore. Maybe you will learn something. A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.prolifeamerica.com/4D-Ultrasound-pictures/

Yeah, so what?

 

[steen]

Of course the paramedics should treat you everyone has the right to live.

Even a dying kidney patient who would live if he got YOUR kidney? Does he have the right to life that allows him to use your bodily resources against your will? There is an entire tread where prolifers strenuously deny there being a right to life.:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=6031

 

[FISHX]

Even a dying kidney patient who would live if he got YOUR kidney? Does he have the right to life that allows him to use your bodily resources against your will? There is an entire tread where prolifers strenuously deny there being a right to life.:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=6031

I have already answered this in the poll forum and yes i do think it is a good idea to have everybodies blood type and other relivant infromation on a unternational database and as people need kidneys then you ptu the information into the database and the match is then told to give his spare kidney just like national service really if you think about it we all only need one kidney to lead a normal life so why not?

 

[vergiss]

But it's my "responsibility" because I took the risk by stepping into my car. So if my organs are harvested, many more people will receive their "right to live" than I would.