A-10's scheduled for the Bone Yard

Perotista said:

I agree. The Air Force has always loved their fast movers and hated anything less. The army has their attack helicopters, why not give them the A-10 and bring back the army air corps. This almost happened when the A-10 was brought on line. Only the threat of the army having their own pilots outside of helicopters did the Air Force finally sign onto it.

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The A-10 came from a pissing match between the Air Force and the Army during the mid to late 1960's, about whose lane CAS belonged in. The AF won out by forcing the Army to pursue the AAH program which developed a slower but survivable attack helicopter (eventually the Apache). Prior to that, the Army was pursuing a very fast CAS helicopter to replace the AH-1. The AF should never have been in the business to begin with, and it's high time they go mind their own business.

American said:

The A-10 came from a pissing match between the Air Force and the Army during the mid to late 1960's, about whose lane CAS belonged in. The AF won out by forcing the Army to pursue the AAH program which developed a slower but survivable attack helicopter (eventually the Apache). Prior to that, the Army was pursuing a very fast CAS helicopter to replace the AH-1. The AF should never have been in the business to begin with, and it's high time they go mind their own business.

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The AP-48 was in competition for the Air Force contract for a CAS tank buster back during the 70's. A modified P-51 (drag tail) But the Air Force don't like drag tails and pilots want something that's fast after unloading their ordnance.



>" The Piper PA-48 Enforcer is a turboprop-powered light close air support/ ground attack aircraft. It was an ultimate development of the original World War II North American P-51 Mustang. The Enforcer concept was originally created by Cavalier Aircraft in response to the US Air Force PAVE COIN program, but Cavalier did not have the political clout or manufacturing abilities to mass-produce the Enforcer, so the program was sold to Piper in 1970.

In 1971 Piper built two Enforcers by heavily modifying two existing P-51 Mustang aircraft and fitting them with Lycoming T55-L9A turboprop engines (along with numerous other significant modifications). One airframe was single seat (called the PE-1 and FAA registered N201PE) and the other was a dual-control aircraft (called the PE-2, registered N202PE). Prior to the PAVE COIN evaluation, N202PE was lost in a crash off the Florida Coast. Although the Enforcer performed well in PAVE COIN, Piper failed to secure a United States Air Force contract.

For another 8 years Piper lobbied Congress to force the USAF to officially re-evaluate the Enforcer. Eventually in the 1979 defense bill $11.9 million was allocated for Piper to build two new prototypes and for the USAF to perform another flight evaluation. Since the Enforcer was never in the Air Force inventory, it was not given an official military designation and did not receive an Air Force serial number. Instead, it carries the Piper designation PA-48 and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) registration numbers N481PE and N482PE.

By the time the PA-48s were completed, they shared less than ten percent of their structure with the P-51. The two PA-48s were tested during 1983 and 1984 at Eglin AFB, Florida, and Edwards AFB, California. As in the PAVE COIN tests of 1971, the PA-48s were found to perform well in their intended role, but the USAF again decided not to purchase any..."<

Continue reading the comments. One from the chief test pilot of the PA-48. -> Piper PA-48 Enforcer - close support aircraft

Oozlefinch said:

A lot of that also depends on the operational environment.

Yea, the BUFF is still an absolutely awesome bomb truck. However, it is now pretty much only used in an area where we have absolute control of the skies, and there is no real ground to air missile threat. I would have no problem sending in B-52s on Day 1 in Afghanistan, but I would have wanted the area well cleared before sending them into Iran or Iraq.

When there is a lot of air to air you need to clear that out as much as you can before sending in any bombers, then use the B-2s until you get all of that ground to air stuff cleared out. Once it is all neutralized and the C&C is largely destroyed, send in the BUFFs and turn everything into parking lots.

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If you had to you could use B-52's the same way they were redesigned to penetrate Soviet airspace and that is low level operations flying in between the weeds. B-1's and B-52's used to do that kind of practice out at Edwards AFB. Talk about wicked watching them fly low and fast like that. I was also able to see a B-52 to a strike with a full bomb load in Iraq. Holy **** talk about feeling and SEEING the earth move.

PirateMk1 said:

If you had to you could use B-52's the same way they were redesigned to penetrate Soviet airspace and that is low level operations flying in between the weeds. B-1's and B-52's used to do that kind of practice out at Edwards AFB. Talk about wicked watching them fly low and fast like that. I was also able to see a B-52 to a strike with a full bomb load in Iraq. Holy **** talk about feeling and SEEING the earth move.

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And that is true, thankfully Iraq had no serious air threats by that time.

Yes, they can still do penetration, but why risk an aircrew if you have a much more survivable bird in the inventory?

When I was downrange seeing B-1s was almost a daily occurrence (my work area was less then a mile from the runway). We did see BUFFS a few times, but they were not based there (we primarily had Lancers and various cargo aircraft).

PirateMk1 said:

If you had to you could use B-52's the same way they were redesigned to penetrate Soviet airspace and that is low level operations flying in between the weeds. B-1's and B-52's used to do that kind of practice out at Edwards AFB. Talk about wicked watching them fly low and fast like that. I was also able to see a B-52 to a strike with a full bomb load in Iraq. Holy **** talk about feeling and SEEING the earth move.

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Are you suggesting we use B-52's like A-10's? I sure hope not.

American said:

Are you suggesting we use B-52's like A-10's? I sure hope not.

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Ah no. B-52's were originally redesigned to do low level penetration raids and deep strategic level nuclear strikes. Flight pattern would be hi low hi. They would go in at the 100ft level or so an fly nap of the earth. I would not use them as close support unless absolutely necessary.

PirateMk1 said:

Ah no. B-52's were originally redesigned to do low level penetration raids and deep strategic level nuclear strikes. Flight pattern would be hi low hi. They would go in at the 100ft level or so an fly nap of the earth. I would not use them as close support unless absolutely necessary.

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Then why is it being discussed here?

American said:

Then why is it being discussed here?

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I will be nice, and say it was part of the conversation and leave at that.