911 a inside job

[RightinNYC]

by the next time you go to one of the clubs on and near west forth street your pledge buddies will be talking about it dont be a coward embrace truth

And I can't understand a word you're saying here.

PS. Was the 5-5-05 bombings part of the US conspiracy too!

AHHHHHHHHH

 

[Pacridge]

You're right, it could have happened, and none of the thousands of people who would have been involved would have EVER told anyone. The odds of that are really high.

I think you're onto something NYU. You know one of the towers had a "Wendy's" in it. Perhaps the founder of the restaurant chain, Dave Thomas, returned from the grave to seek his vengeance on McDonald's for selling more hamburgers world wide? That might be just as relavent as there being a CIA office in one tower.

 

[RightinNYC]

I think you're onto something NYU. You know one of the towers had a "Wendy's" in it. Perhaps the founder of the restaurant chain, Dave Thomas, returned from the grave to seek his vengeance on McDonald's for selling more hamburgers world wide? That might be just as relavent as there being a CIA office in one tower.

I knew it!

That bastard, always tempting us with his tasty chicken tenders and his delectable bacon cheeseburgers...

He's teaming up with a Splinter squad from the FDA and the group who published the recent study saying it's healthier to be a bit fatter to try to kill Americans through obesity.

Quick, let's make a flash presentation with scary music and get a cool website like www.wendysconspiracyofdeathhhhhhh.com

:mrgreen:

 

[Pacridge]

I knew it!

That bastard, always tempting us with his tasty chicken tenders and his delectable bacon cheeseburgers...

He's teaming up with a Splinter squad from the FDA and the group who published the recent study saying it's healthier to be a bit fatter to try to kill Americans through obesity.

Quick, let's make a flash presentation with scary music and get a cool website like www.wendysconspiracyofdeathhhhhhh.com

:mrgreen:

I'm on board. Sounds like fun. First we have to make some grainy video's of the towers falling. We'll "photoshop" in a Wendy's sign so people can clearly see that Mr. Thomas was without a doubt the mastermind. Plus we'll need some financial documents that clearly show that Wendy's is losing ground every year to McDonald prior to the towers falling then after the towers fall they start gaining ground. Somebody will buy it, trust me.

 

[RightinNYC]

I'm on board. Sounds like fun. First we have to make some grainy video's of the towers falling. We'll "photoshop" in a Wendy's sign so people can clearly see that Mr. Thomas was without a doubt the mastermind. Plus we'll need some financial documents that clearly show that Wendy's is losing ground every year to McDonald prior to the towers falling then after the towers fall they start gaining ground. Somebody will buy it, trust me.

I'll pass out flyers to NYUAnarchists, NYU Inc., SocialistsINNY, Students United for Peace and Justice, etc.

We'll have a full fledged rally/die-in/march on our hands demanding accountability and divestment from all Wendy's subsidiaries.

 

[GarzaUK]

Go to the snopes website I linked to above.

The wings almost definately folded into the plane when it hit. In fact, if you look at the very picture your provided, on the left hand side there is what looks like a line of damage along the base consistent with a wing impact.

And about the spools, WHO KNOWS? Crazier **** happens every single day.

Think about this: If the government went to all the effort to:

1) Plant explosives in the WTC
2) Organize the massive NWO to create an alternate reality
3) Switch out all 4 of the planes with other planes like some claim,
4) Fake all of the cellphone calls from the passengers to their families
5) etc etc

THEN WHY WOULDNT THEY PUT IN THE LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA EFFORT TO CRASH AN EXTRA PLANE INTO THE PENTAGON?

You think they'd put in alllllll that effort then half ass the last little bit?

No.

Yeah I see the damage now, I thought it would more than that. I can't really see the "folded" wings debris though. I don't think anything, just posing questions. Personally I don't beleive in conspiracies, but if we don't question things sometimes well, what if Newton never questioned the apple falling.

 

[GarzaUK]

But when he watched the towers go down, he said "it's really strange that the towers went down the way they did." I'm not saying these things are true. But they are presenting good evidence. My point is this: if someone presents you an incredibly good argument, even if it is conspiracy, why then dissmiss it based on the faith you have that the government would never do soemthing like this. It's a hard call when evidence is conflicting. Plato would have us suspend judgment if neither side could be proven wrong. But you call anyone who even considers the possibility that it would be something other than what the government says it was an idiot? I thought the very point of logic was to weigh all possibilities equally, and decide which to accept or reject, as opposed to just rejecting them solely based on the fact that they go against the government.

I thought skyscrapers like the WTC were built to go down like that instead of toppling over onto other buildings, but maybe your father is right, I'm not qualified.

I agree with you sebastian, it is the question that drive human nature.

How many people were burned until they realized the world was not flat and that earth evolved around the sun?

I would never call a person an idiot because they're believe most people would not. Hell, religion has less evidence that some conspiracy theories lol

 

[RightinNYC]

Yeah I see the damage now, I thought it would more than that. I can't really see the "folded" wings debris though. I don't think anything, just posing questions. Personally I don't beleive in conspiracies, but if we don't question things sometimes well, what if Newton never questioned the apple falling.

But in Newton's case the apple actually fell.

Here it's like saying "Well, the apple fell, but we suspect it was pushed, and the government has a secret division of black ops soldiers who go around covering up the apple pushers."

 

[myshkin]

But in Newton's case the apple actually fell.

Here it's like saying "Well, the apple fell, but we suspect it was pushed, and the government has a secret division of black ops soldiers who go around covering up the apple pushers."

Many of us have trouble believing in our government after we learn years after the fact how complicit they have been in atrocities around the world.

US involvement in Latin America has been a series of atrocities. Is it such a big step to murder US citizens when it is so easy to murder foreigners? Proposals like Operation Northwoods seem to indicate that it is not.

Many of our current crises are a result of actions by our government without the consent of the governed and hidden from the governed whether by black opts or accountants.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I really couldn't give a rats ass what your father thinks. You don't think that millions of people thought abuot what happened? If it was so impossible for what happened to happen, things would be a bit different.

Know what is even more strange than the buildings coming down? Two big ass jets hitting them at 560 mph.

I'm not disbelieveing simply because I "don't think the government would do something wrong," but rather because it's simply IMPOSSIBLE that they intentionally did what they did. How on earth would they sneak enough explosives into a building to take it down without annnnnyone noticing? How would they formulate such a massive plan without any one of the thousands of people who would be involved in the planning getting cold feet? How would they ensure that things happened the way they did?

I've weighed all possibilities, and the possibilities of anything else happening aren't worth my time.

Okay, then riddle me this... why did in the case of the two towers, both towers become so hot that the both melted through steal supports, and yet, the pentagon where it was hit was not nearly destroyed in this manner? As far as the size and mobility of incredibly explisive materials, they can sneek them pretty much anywhere. If we've learned anything at all from the "War on Terror" it's that it doesn't take a nucleur scientist to create and incredibly effective bomb. While you're in your line of questioning... let's ask how could the taliban ever get access to flight training inside the US? How could they possibly have gotten on board these plains, changed their flight pattern, and flown into the side of the Pentagon AFTER the US had already been warned that we were under attack? How could the President possibly ignore a very real threat to America presented to him BEFORE 9/11? You tell me. Because frankly, I'm somehow guessing you know little to nothing more about it all than I do. The point is this: how the hell could you know what you think you know? You are fed what they let you know are you not? You have any idea how many people in the US had no idea that FDR was in a wheelchair? The man was wheeled around all the time, and it still didn't make it to most of the world. Do you remember "duck and cover?" That was the government's advice in case there was a nucleur attack from Russia. Do you know why you would duck and cover if a nucleur bomb were to hit? Because that way you look more like a marshmellow to any extra terrestrial life that might happen by. Washington lies to us. This is nothing new. They do what they feel is best, whatever that means, and lets face it, there is little they don't have to power to do if they join in a combined effort to really hurt us. Do I think that this is all true? Probably not. It takes a lot more than this to convince me. But, it does raise that bit of doubt in my head. We know Washington lies to us. We know that it pays, and possibly bullets, to anyone that might talk. We know that Bush wanted war, and we know that he wanted some reason to attack Saddam. Perhaps this just gave him ability to stir up the support. I honestly do not know because I am not on the inside. And arguably, neither are you. There are however hundreds of thousands of people that are somehow or another related to Washington or the Armed Forces, and whose to say that they would act against a few thousand people they did not know? Especially if they were wrongly informed? I agree with you that it is out on a whim. But there are certainly some odd things about the whole case. After all, why have a commision formed if there wasn't some things that needed investigation and questioning? You pointed out the "half-assed little bit." But logically, it makes sense. If you're going to take out a part of the Pentagon, with your own people in it, then you don't want an actual plane crashing into it. Just imagine if they couldn't get the fire out? If indeed it was people in Washington and defense, then they would want a controlled event, a false explosion on a wing that was being renovated, little damage, little fatality. As opposed to a larger and more... expendable target like the twin towers. I know this is all far off center. But I think what really bothers me is how adimatly you claim that anyone who might even suspend judgement on this you consider stupid. Because they perhaps cannot see things from your angle, or what if, in fact you cannot see them from their's, and their conclusion is different than yours. What of this video evidence they are giving? Why would they go to the effort if they knew it not to be true? Do they not seem just a little too coherent to be completely lunatic? What is the answer? Why is it so stupid to pose questions based on lack of faith from a government that has lied to us before?

 

[Pacridge]

Okay, then riddle me this... why did in the case of the two towers, both towers become so hot that the both melted through steal supports, and yet, the pentagon where it was hit was not nearly destroyed in this manner? As far as the size and mobility of incredibly explisive materials, they can sneek them pretty much anywhere. If we've learned anything at all from the "War on Terror" it's that it doesn't take a nucleur scientist to create and incredibly effective bomb. While you're in your line of questioning... let's ask how could the taliban ever get access to flight training inside the US? How could they possibly have gotten on board these plains, changed their flight pattern, and flown into the side of the Pentagon AFTER the US had already been warned that we were under attack? How could the President possibly ignore a very real threat to America presented to him BEFORE 9/11? You tell me. Because frankly, I'm somehow guessing you know little to nothing more about it all than I do. The point is this: how the hell could you know what you think you know? You are fed what they let you know are you not? You have any idea how many people in the US had no idea that FDR was in a wheelchair? The man was wheeled around all the time, and it still didn't make it to most of the world. Do you remember "duck and cover?" That was the government's advice in case there was a nucleur attack from Russia. Do you know why you would duck and cover if a nucleur bomb were to hit? Because that way you look more like a marshmellow to any extra terrestrial life that might happen by. Washington lies to us. This is nothing new. They do what they feel is best, whatever that means, and lets face it, there is little they don't have to power to do if they join in a combined effort to really hurt us. Do I think that this is all true? Probably not. It takes a lot more than this to convince me. But, it does raise that bit of doubt in my head. We know Washington lies to us. We know that it pays, and possibly bullets, to anyone that might talk. We know that Bush wanted war, and we know that he wanted some reason to attack Saddam. Perhaps this just gave him ability to stir up the support. I honestly do not know because I am not on the inside. And arguably, neither are you. There are however hundreds of thousands of people that are somehow or another related to Washington or the Armed Forces, and whose to say that they would act against a few thousand people they did not know? Especially if they were wrongly informed? I agree with you that it is out on a whim. But there are certainly some odd things about the whole case. After all, why have a commision formed if there wasn't some things that needed investigation and questioning? You pointed out the "half-assed little bit." But logically, it makes sense. If you're going to take out a part of the Pentagon, with your own people in it, then you don't want an actual plane crashing into it. Just imagine if they couldn't get the fire out? If indeed it was people in Washington and defense, then they would want a controlled event, a false explosion on a wing that was being renovated, little damage, little fatality. As opposed to a larger and more... expendable target like the twin towers. I know this is all far off center. But I think what really bothers me is how adimatly you claim that anyone who might even suspend judgement on this you consider stupid. Because they perhaps cannot see things from your angle, or what if, in fact you cannot see them from their's, and their conclusion is different than yours. What of this video evidence they are giving? Why would they go to the effort if they knew it not to be true? Do they not seem just a little too coherent to be completely lunatic? What is the answer? Why is it so stupid to pose questions based on lack of faith from a government that has lied to us before?

You’re right the Government lies to us all the time. But to believe they were involved in 9-11 is really hard for me to swallow. I’m not saying it’s not possible. He*l anything’s possible I guess. I guess I don’t see the how the conspiracy could be achieved with all the players they’d have to have. But you’re right they lie, they do it all the time. The question becomes why do they lie? Take area 51. For years they said the place didn’t even exist. Well it did. I know it did. I drove out there and saw it. Big signs all over the place telling you keep the he*l off a base that didn’t exist. In fact if you stepped foot on this base that didn’t exist the sign said they were authorized to shoot you. Now were they just using that as a test site for military equipment (personally what I think) or were they storing some alien beings and space craft? I don’t know what was going on out there. I do know it was there. I also know there were several lame gift shops on the drive out.

 

[RightinNYC]

Okay, then riddle me this... why did in the case of the two towers, both towers become so hot that the both melted through steal supports, and yet, the pentagon where it was hit was not nearly destroyed in this manner? As far as the size and mobility of incredibly explisive materials, they can sneek them pretty much anywhere. If we've learned anything at all from the "War on Terror" it's that it doesn't take a nucleur scientist to create and incredibly effective bomb. While you're in your line of questioning... let's ask how could the taliban ever get access to flight training inside the US? How could they possibly have gotten on board these plains, changed their flight pattern, and flown into the side of the Pentagon AFTER the US had already been warned that we were under attack? How could the President possibly ignore a very real threat to America presented to him BEFORE 9/11? You tell me. Because frankly, I'm somehow guessing you know little to nothing more about it all than I do. The point is this: how the hell could you know what you think you know? You are fed what they let you know are you not? You have any idea how many people in the US had no idea that FDR was in a wheelchair? The man was wheeled around all the time, and it still didn't make it to most of the world. Do you remember "duck and cover?" That was the government's advice in case there was a nucleur attack from Russia. Do you know why you would duck and cover if a nucleur bomb were to hit? Because that way you look more like a marshmellow to any extra terrestrial life that might happen by. Washington lies to us. This is nothing new. They do what they feel is best, whatever that means, and lets face it, there is little they don't have to power to do if they join in a combined effort to really hurt us. Do I think that this is all true? Probably not. It takes a lot more than this to convince me. But, it does raise that bit of doubt in my head. We know Washington lies to us. We know that it pays, and possibly bullets, to anyone that might talk. We know that Bush wanted war, and we know that he wanted some reason to attack Saddam. Perhaps this just gave him ability to stir up the support. I honestly do not know because I am not on the inside. And arguably, neither are you. There are however hundreds of thousands of people that are somehow or another related to Washington or the Armed Forces, and whose to say that they would act against a few thousand people they did not know? Especially if they were wrongly informed? I agree with you that it is out on a whim. But there are certainly some odd things about the whole case. After all, why have a commision formed if there wasn't some things that needed investigation and questioning? You pointed out the "half-assed little bit." But logically, it makes sense. If you're going to take out a part of the Pentagon, with your own people in it, then you don't want an actual plane crashing into it. Just imagine if they couldn't get the fire out? If indeed it was people in Washington and defense, then they would want a controlled event, a false explosion on a wing that was being renovated, little damage, little fatality. As opposed to a larger and more... expendable target like the twin towers. I know this is all far off center. But I think what really bothers me is how adimatly you claim that anyone who might even suspend judgement on this you consider stupid. Because they perhaps cannot see things from your angle, or what if, in fact you cannot see them from their's, and their conclusion is different than yours. What of this video evidence they are giving? Why would they go to the effort if they knew it not to be true? Do they not seem just a little too coherent to be completely lunatic? What is the answer? Why is it so stupid to pose questions based on lack of faith from a government that has lied to us before?

The reason the towers became hot and melted was because of the stresses placed on the destroyed portions of the towers by the massive weight of the structure above it. The reason the Pentagon did not suffer the same fate is because a) The plane likely hit the ground first, absorbing some of the energy, and b) The Pentagon is a long, short structure, rather than a thin, tall one. Ask your engineer father to explain it to you.

You're right, they can sneak explosives anywhere. The only bit of evidence that is missing is a) any evidence there were any other explosives, b) any evidence the government snook them in, and c) any evidence there was a cover up. But other than that....

How did the Taliban get access to flight training? The same way the other millions of illegal immigrants get jobs, drivers licenses, etc. Lax security. It's not a surprise.

How could the President ignore a very real threat? How could Clinton ignore the same threat? It was ignored. That's a fact. Doesn't mean anything. I bet if I'd asked you how important you thought terrorism on Sept 10th, you wouldn't have said it was your top priority.

Frankly, the more you talk, the more positive I am becoming that I do know more than you on the subject.

I'm not fed anything. I'm well aware that FDR's state was a secret to most of the country, but that was because of the sad state of the press then. Do you think that could be hidden nowadays? With the millions of bloggers instantly posting anything they see, the rise of partisan news sources, and the spread of the internet, nothing is hidden anymore.

This point isn't really germaine, but I'll make it anyways: There are many circumstances where duck and cover would provide protection from a nuclear attack. Just so you know.

You're right, Washington does lie to us, and they do what they feel is best. But it's important to remember that there are millions watching their every move, and people on both sides always looking to take advantage. Nothing is secret.

The whole point of the commission was to dispel the same rumors you're propagating now. I've read the report, and met both the chairs, and there's nothing in the entire report to convince me that there's anything being hidden. They had access to all the same information the gov had.

"If you're going to take out a part of the Pentagon, with your own people in it, then you don't want an actual plane crashing into it." Weren't you the one just claiming that there was a CIA office in the WTC? If they didn't care about the CIA, why would they care about the Pentagon. Makes no sense. Why crash it into the Pentagon at all? Why not the White House, or the Capital? None of "their people" were in either.

"But I think what really bothers me is how adimatly you claim that anyone who might even suspend judgement on this you consider stupid." I tolerate many different viewpoints, but I look at abject stupidity on the same level as racism or anti-semitism. It's what it often leads to, anyways.

"Do they not seem just a little too coherent to be completely lunatic?" No, actually, they seem quite incoherent. Can you follow a single argument bibleboy has said so far?

"Why is it so stupid to pose questions based on lack of faith from a government that has lied to us before?" It's not the original posing of the questions that I take issue with. It's the repeated refusal to listen to the answers to those questions that bothers me. It's like those who question the Holocaust. Sheer ignorance.

 

[biblemark1018]

i dont see how you guys can turn the death of americans done by our own goverment in to a joke

Ok, this is to all of the people who still believe 9/11 was the work of 19 Arabic Hijackers and an operation entirely masterminded by Osama Bin Laden, mainly because he hates our freedom’s and disagrees with American Liberalism. Despite all of their hard work, the United States Government simply could not see the attack coming.

When one considers all of the hardcore facts, there is no way this excuse holds even a grain of truth in it. The official story is impossible and simply does not stand up to scrutiny. Even more laughable is the excuse given by government officials that it was simply a "failure of intelligence" and the attack could not be averted. There's no way we politicians should form their mouths to even use an incompetence excuse. Warnings were received by the US by at least 18 other countries, and agents in the CIA, and the FBI were warned. The FAA got warnings too. In fact,

Prior Knowledge:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3516233.stm]CIA had high-jacker details
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2242594.stm]Taliban warned the US of huge attack
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/18/inv.hijacking.philippines/index.html]FBI warned of plot to high-jack planes in 1995
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.u...spicious Flight Students Last Summer.html]FBI warned of Suspicious flight student last year]http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/Web%20Pages/FINANCIAL%20TIMES_CIA%20'ignored%20warning'%20on%20al%20Qaeda.htm]CIA ignorned warnings of Al-Queda
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,47133,00.html]US knew of Suicide highjack threat in 1995
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/Web Pages/MSNBC_The airlift of evil.htm]The airlift of evil
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html]Threat of US attacks passed Taliban weeks before the attacks
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.u...Clamps Secrecy on Warnings Before 9-11.htm]US clamps secrecy on attacks before 911


It seems that there were so many warnings, that


"The information provided by European intelligence services prior to 9/11 was so extensive that it is no longer possible for either the CIA or FBI to assert a defence of incompetence." Micheal Meacher, Tony Blairs former environmental advisor until 2003. http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html]London Guardian

In addition to these Government officials and other people received individuals warnings as well. Mayor Willie Brown was warned by Condoleezza Rice not to fly on 911, author Salmon Rushdie was publicly banned from flying before 911, and John Ashcroft former Attorney General stopped flying commercially six months before 911. Even some people working inside of the towers got instant messages, telling them to evacuate the WTC.

We must ask ourselves, where did all this prior knowledge come from, and why was it all ignored? Is it possible for that this much information of this magnitude of importance to get tangled up in a beaurecratic web of telephone lines? The answer is NO, people in side of the Trade Towers got INSTANT MESSAGES telling them the buildings were going to be destroyed two hours before it happened. You’re going to tell me someone can get an INSTANT MESSAGE to someone inside the World Trade Center two hours before the attack, but no one can get the message to the President of the United States? Bullshit. Condoleezza Rice calls Mayor Willie Brown and tells HIM not to fly, BUT SHE CAN'T CALL THE PRESIDENT AND TELL HIM TO STOP THE ATTACK?

Sources:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has\]Odigo Says Workers Were Warned of the Attack
http://www.sfgate.com/today/0912_chron_mnreport.shtml]San Francisco Chronicle - Mayor Willie Brown got Low-Key Warning about Air Travel
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1000] The Truth Seeker-Condi Lisa Rice Warned Willie Brown and Told him not to fly on 911
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml]CBS News - Ashcroft Flying High


In addition there are over 600 smoking gun holes and unanswered questions in the official story of 911; I'm only going to scratch the surface, w/ some of the main ones.

First thing is the NORAD stand down order.

"The first hijacking was suspected at not later than 8.20am, and the last hijacked aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania at 10.06am. Not a single fighter plane was scrambled to investigate from the US Andrews airforce base, just 10 miles from Washington DC, until after the third plane had hit the Pentagon at 9.38 am. Why not? There were standard FAA intercept procedures for hijacked aircraft before 9/11. Between September 2000 and June 2001 the US military launched fighter aircraft on 67 occasions to chase suspicious aircraft" (AP, August 13 2002)
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html]guardian, once again

NORAD completely stood down, this is a clear violation of FAA flight regulations, and NORAD could have probably stopped the attack, at least partially. The morning of 911 NORAD was training in a war game of flying hijacked aircrafts into buildings ON the Morning of 911. On the Morning of 911? Yep, the drill stopped just 50 minutes before the Hi-Jacking began. No wonder there was no Military Response, NORAD was told that the planes being Hijacked were just part of a drill. That's why they stood down.

What are the chances of this happening? It's just a coincidence that they were running a war-game drill of the same monumental event to be documented in history books for centuries? Of course it’s possible, but very unlikely.


http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.u...nd a plane crashing into a building.htm]Yahoo News - Agency planned exercise on Sept. 11 built around a plane crashing into a building

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm]USA Today - NORAD has drills to use jets as weapons

In addition, the list of the 19 hijackers and their picture identification was assembled and aired just hours after the attack. How do we jump to the accusations that 19 suspects are guilty of 3,000 American murders when most, if not all of the evidence, is twisted metal and degenerated ashes that used to be people? Actually by the time the hijackers had their mug shots aired on TV, all of the crime scenes had been destroyed. Buildings one and two collapsed, as well as the mysterious building seven collapsing on its own, the plane that hit the pentagon decentegrated, and flight 93 was likely shot down, hours later we miraculously post all of their mug shots on the news? Damn, we must be good.

So how exactly did the United States leap to their allegations of guilt?

A travel bag belonging to one of the 911 hijackers was found at the airport after the attacks, absolutely ruling beyond any doubt, that this was the work of Al-Queda.

Question: Why would a hijacker, planning to commit suicide, even BRING A BAG? Let alone pack it w/ incriminating evidence sure to unleash a fire storm of military hell on all of his fellow Afghani people? The bag contained enough evidences to precisely tie the perpetrators to the Taliban and Al-Queda justify the assault in Afghanistan.
(911 the Great Illusion)

Answer: this is MANUFACTURED EVIDENCE


Now BBC has began running stories that many of these men have shown up as being still alive. 911 eleven Hijackers steal our planes to suicide attack us because were not doing what Allah says, and then they show up still being alive. So that means that at least five of the men on the hi-jackers list cannot be the same men who were on the plane. But the government has stuck to their official story on this, and no one in the mainstream media has ever brought this up, or challenged them on it. Many of the Hijackers are now appearing on television in their countries and professing their innocence. A lot of information like this has been circulating around other parts of the world, and it is likely the reason why America's image has dropped from negative to terrible. Most people in other countries know this is going on, but Americans are sleeping.

 

[biblemark1018]

The Truth is unleashed in other parts of the world but it’s concealed from American eyes as a way to demonize Americans to the rest of the world, while American media demonizes the rest of the world (particularly Arabs) to America, this is a way of polarizing both side to inspire conflict on both sides.

Sources:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm]High JAck Suspects alive and well
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1558669.stm]High Jack Suspects Alive in Morroco


Bombs in the Towers


IMGhttp://www.prisonplanet.tv/images/may2004/050504collapse.jpg IMG

___ This next part is important, because it's hardcore vissual evidence of government involvement in 9/11 and is nearly impossible to deny.

Building seven, first of all, was the third building to collapse within the World Trade Center Complex. According to the government’s official story, building seven was destroyed from fire, along with buildings one and two.

Videos Show Building 7's 6.5 second symmetrical collapse

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif

First of all it’s important to say that fire has never once brought a steel structure down. Out of 100 uncontrolled fires in the last 50 years NEVER has fire collapsed a steel building, only earthquakes and explosives have been able to flatten these architectural structures.

So, why is building seven so significant? It’s important because building seven collapsed without being struck by an airplane or anything else, almost as if it were the wind that knocked it over.

Several videos have been salvaged which show building seven's collapse and shocking evidence has surfaced from scrutiny.

http://www.wtc7.net/vdocs/wtc_7_cbs.mpg]CBS Broadcast of Buildinding Seven's fall - Dan Rather admits it looks like Explosives
http://wtc7.net/vdocs/wtc7_collapse.mpg]Building Seven's Collapase from a mile away
http://www.wtc7.net/vdocs/wtc7_collapse2.mpg]Building Seven's Colapse from 1000 feet away, this is very obvious

You see, building seven DECENTEGRATED INTO RUBBLE in a vertical symmetrical fashion in 6.5 seconds. If building seven was taken down by an aircraft impact (even though it was not) it would have thrown back horizontally, transferring the energy away from the air plane impacts. And if it was fire that had brought it down, we would have seen the structure reduced into liquid metal, and the streets would be a river of flame. But this building simply fell straight to the ground and crumbled.

I need to explain something about controlled demolition. First of all, when buildings are demolished the explosives are placed in the central column, so the structure falls inwards and does not damage other surrounding buildings. So they only way the building can fall like this or fall period is through the use of explosives.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fema_report.html]THE FEMA REPORT ON WORLD TRADE CENTER 7 COLLAPSE IS A TOTAL JOKE.

IMG http://wtc7.net/docs/streamers.jpg IMG

“Each of the following videos shows the entire visible portion of the building falling with a vertical precision otherwise seen only in controlled demolition. Moreover, they show that the collapse took only about 6.5 seconds from start to finish. That rate of fall is within a second of the time it would take an object to fall from the building's roof with no air resistance”

IMG http://www.propagandamatrix.com/WTCDemol.jpg IMG

IMG http://www.propagandamatrix.com/WTC-bomb-frame048enhanced.jpg IMG

http://immortal-technique.com/forums//showtopic=4020&st=0]Good lookin to Dem Bruce Lee Stylez, and his MIGHTY nine eleven thread right here

Historical Comparison

imghttp://www.historyproject.net/images/vol01/28-1125a.jpg img

----The Burning of the Reichstag



In 1939, shortly after being elected president Adolph Hitler wanted to cease the German Chancellor’s powers for himself. So he set the massive governmental building on fire, and the Reichstag (German Parliament) infernos sent the population into a state of petrified fear. Adolph Hitler was then able to merge the Chancellor’s powers with that of the Presidents, and this is the origin of where his dictatorial power came from. Hitler also blamed the terrorist attack on Poland which gave him a pretext, or a reason, to wage an invasion there.



The real Pretext

Hitler’s conspiratorial tactic of burning the Reichstag to receive dictatorial power, and a pretext to attack his enemies is a method that is known as the Hegelian Dialectic, which is translated simply as problem, reaction, solution. The Hegelian Dialectic is a tactic that was developed by the 19th century German philosopher George Wilhelm Fredric Hegel. The way this works is, you create a crisis, the population is thrown into fear, and then you, the creator of the crisis, step in with a pre-organized solution, and pose as the savior. As soon as 911 occurred, literally while the smoke was still streaming from the building, politicians began targeting us with Doublethink approaches to get us to give up our freedom for security.

I don't want to digress too much, but this is important.

Doublethink is the practice of misrepresenting something bad as something good, such as pushing identity theft propaganda in order to get the people wanting a national ID card. This was the phrase coined in George Orwell's book 1984, which psychologically persuaded the population to relinquish there freedom and unto big brother simultaneously being happy about it. We see doublethink utilized daily by politicians.

The Hegelian Dialectic fused with the double think approach has given ruthless men an unbelievably effective tactic of power consolidation. But this time it's bigger,

IMG http://www.redrat.net/BUSH_WAR/New-World-Order.jpg
PNAC(Project For a New American Centeury

 

[biblemark1018]

The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) was founded by **** Chenney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Lewis Libby and others in 2000. This is a pro-globalization neo-con think tank. On his website **** Cheney lays out a Blueprint for America to invade many of it's neighbors and construct a "global command and control system" Cheney sites Syria, Libya, and North Korea as terrorist regimes, and uses their existence to justify invasions and restructuring there powers under a Pax America. It's strange, earlier in the year, Rumsfeld was selling Nuclear Reactors to North Korea. Now he's sitting in meetings at PNAC calling them a dangerous regime. HaHa, who made them more dangerous, Mr. Rumsfeld?
This document also mentions that public support would be very difficult to rally for these upcoming wars, and that a "Pearl Harbor Like Attack" would be very helpful. Now this is a public document, saying we need helpful Pearl Harbor attacks, that's motive, and practically admittance.

Sources:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/]PNAC offical site read the documents.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html]Meacher talks about PNAC too
http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,952289,00.html]Guardian UK - The Two Faces of Rumseld

Not only this, but


"the US and the UK, are running dangerously low on hydrocarbon energy supplies. And by 2010 the Muslim world will control as much as 60% of the worlds oil production, and 95% of the remaining exportable oil. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/937573.stm]Protecting oil supplies in a crisis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/36735.stm]Taliban to Texas for Oil Talks
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1097622,00.html]Bottom of the Barrel, the world is runnin out of oil, why do Politicans refuse to talk about it?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html]Threats of US to strike Taliban weeks before the attacks



Key Bono(Who Benefits?)

Three Corporations involved in the war on terror/The World effort. They are the
Carlyle Group, Unocal, and Halliburton,

Carlyle group: Bush and the Bin Laden family are BOTH investors in this company, that is headed almost exclusively by former government officals.


Unocal: Bush just hired the former CEO, I believe to his administration, others inside the camp are investors as well. This is the company building the pipeline through Afganistan.

Halliburton: I don't even half to say it.


Meacher for the last time,

"No serious attempt has ever been made to catch Bin Laden. In late September and early October 2001, leaders of Pakistan's two Islamist parties negotiated Bin Laden's extradition to Pakistan to stand trial for 9/11. However, a US official said, significantly, that "casting our objectives too narrowly" risked "a premature collapse of the international effort if by some lucky chance Mr Bin Laden was captured". The US chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Myers, went so far as to say that "the goal has never been to get Bin Laden" (AP, April 5 2002). The whistle blowing FBI agent Robert Wright told ABC News (December 19 2002) that FBI headquarters wanted no arrests. And in November 2001 the US air force complained it had had al-Qaida and Taliban leaders in its sights as many as 10 times over the previous six weeks, but had been unable to attack because they did not receive permission quickly enough (Time Magazine, May 13 2002). None of this assembled evidence, all of which comes from sources already in the public domain, is compatible with the idea of a real, determined war on terrorism"
Micheal Meacher

The War on terror is not the war on terror, it's putting the PNAC agenda into action.

Not only have they blatantly avoided chances to catch Bin Laden, but many reporters have written articles about top government officials holding the investigation in the dark, delaying them, and in some cases even protecting the terrorists. I'd post the actual document but I'm out of picture slots so you have to settle for the article, or research the rest yourself.

http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.u...s To Restrict Hill Probes Of Sept 11.htm]Bush restricts 911 probes
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/09/wtal09.xml]Top Taladan leader freed by US
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/05/09/Worldandnation/Graham__911_study_hin.shtml]911 study hindered
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/5993628.htm]Bush trying to hide 911 information
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/27/bush.911/]911 documents to sensitive for realse
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/inv.terror.probe/]Bush discourages 911 investagations
http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?art_id=1030259305]Times of India - Bush took FBI agents off the Trail of Bin Ladens
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,722426,00.html]Guardian UK - Agent Blasts FBI over 11 Sept 'cover up'


Goes on and on


The really scary thing is,


Home Land security = Police State Mechanism

New Laws in the Works, are...

Patriot Act: Old school now, Police and government officials do not need warrants to enter homes now, and can seize anything in your house, and not tell you they were there for 60 days. Also ambiguous language could allow for secret juryless trials and even executions for supposed "Terrorists". The definition of a terrorist as shown in the Patriot Act is one who commits "Any act that endangers human life, IN VIOLATION WITH ANY FEDERAL OR STATE LAW" So Jay walkers and pot dealers are terroist too. The Patriot Act has been used on many "domestic terrorists" for crimes such as being a gang member to writing a story here are some examples.

http://www.lex18.com/Global/story.asp?S=2989614]Student Arrested For Terroristic Threatening Says Incident A Misunderstanding, (HE gets arrested for writing a story byt doesen't say that in the head lines)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52504-2005Jan31.html]NY Post - N.Y. Using Terrorism Law To Prosecute Street Gang



National ID cards, which contain name, address the usual things, but also a finger and a retinal print, also rumors are circulating about a possible tracking chip inside of them.

We have the National all Prescriptions reporting act, which makes all of your medical drug information accessible by Federal agencies, all of them in fact since their all allowed sharing information now.

And the possible enactment of mandatory psychological testing for children and prescribing drugs without the parents consent.
There are also talks of extending the program to the entire population. (Note: The Forced psychological testing bill has already been passed, search “new freedom initiative” for more info)

AND the mother of them all of course, the Patriot Act II, while the first Patriot Act is just a destruction first, third, fourth and fifth amendments, Patriot Act II is a carbon copy of the powers that Hitler and Julius Caesar gave themselves
Patriot Act II creates an expanded definition for domestic terrorism, And it allows any terrorism act to result in the death penalty, allows federal access to your bank, educational, and financial records, and makes conspiracy to commit terror a crime with out endangering any life what so ever. And amazingly makes information gathering illegal, in fact this post right here would go under the heading of "Info Terrorism"

Patriot act II is enormously unpopular, and received massive amounts of bad press, so it's being passed in smaller increments, 10% of it has already been passed as HR2417, which allows for the pulling of all Financial and Medical transcripts.

"Strengthening Patriot Act I is code for passing Patriot Act 2."
There trying to do this now.


Summary:

 

[biblemark1018]

911 was such a cataclysmic event, it galvanized both the idiots and the intellectuals of America into a flag waving frenzy for nearly five years. 911 has become a never ending excuse to fight any war over seas, and implement any authoritarian rule domestically. Politicians were so quick to exploit this event, jumping in there tanks and battle suits while rushing 1000 page bills through the Senate and House. One has to wonder, why knee jerk reaction of this attack was to shift into throwing doublethink deception at the people, telling them to give up freedom for liberty before the smoke had yet to even clear from the air.

Giving up freedom for Liberty is a False Paradigm. No Liberty = Tyranny.

As the Roman judges used to say when a crime was committed, “key bono?”, or who benefits? The globalists who masterminded this attack want authoritarian control of America, invasion into uncontrolled Arab states, and overall a world climate that is so dangerous and unstable, the people will beg them for a one world government. A government ruled by them. Order out of chaos.

I've developed quite a case here, and I think my arguments are supported extremely well, even without all of my information on the towers; this is very strong evidence that we are being lied too, almost on a daily basis. Most of this literally proves the official story is a fraud and there's a lot of things I chose not to talk about, like 100s of Al-Queda and Taliban being flown out after 911, Insider trading right before 911, or Bush pulling FBI agents off of the Trail of the Bin Laden right before 911 (Edit: I did touch on that) and signing documents to protect them. However I've come to the conclusion that in this instance, the problem is there is actually TOO MUCH evidence here, so I won't even bother with the links for my last claims.

If you think I've made a compelling case, than I urge you learn more about this, because if I'm even remotely correct, and this New World Order aka the "Global Union" is created, by the same creatures who carried out this attack, I don't think your going to want to live under the tyranny grids they've constructed for you. I'm not charging the government with carrying this out, but these Rogue elements with tentacles into our government, who live in families who are worth five times as much as our countries annual budget. If you look more into this, I know you'll see that what I'm saying is true, this is what has happened with me. So please spread this thread around as much as you can, watch some of these movies I post at the bottom, PLEASE look into this more. I know when you find out what I'm saying is real, you'll fight it with even more compassion.

In the past only small pockets of people have had information on this subject, which served to cloak events in a protective secrecy. But lately a plethora of new information has been consolidated, creating an incredibly chaotic environment for the globalist where the risk of mass exposure is becoming very real. So once you learn, please spread this information on to others.

This is an information war, against elites with 90% of the wealth trying to control the political and financial systems to control mankind, and doing it for there own selfish desires. And information of this type is so much more powerful than any gun or grenade or tank or anything. Every single word we spew of resistance is a bullet, discharged from a chamber and sent into the heart of the New World Order Demon, and it will take a lot to kill it, but humanity will prevail.

911 Documentaries


Martial Law: 911 Rise of the Police State (The best damn 911 movie ever made)
Windows Media Player:

Broadband:

http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml.wmv
http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml.wmv

Dial up:

http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml56k.wmv]http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml56k.wmv

Stream:

Broadband:

http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml.wmx]http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml.wmx

Dial up:

http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml56k.wmx]http://www.revradio.org/movies/ml56k.wmx

http://www.archive.org/movies/detai...nt_news&collectionid=911theRoadtoTyranny]911- The Road To Tyranny

Paineful Deceptions
=http://reopen911.org/video/painful_deceptions-an_analysis_of_the_911_attack_part1.wmv]Painful Deceptions DVD Part 1 (pentagon)
http://reopen911.org/video/painful_deceptions-an_analysis_of_the_911_attack_part2.wmv]Painful Deceptions DVD Part 2 (building 7 and the two towers)
http://reopen911.org/video/painful_deceptions-an_analysis_of_the_911_attack_part3.wmv]Painful Deceptions DVD Part 3 (media propaganda)

The Masters of terror
2:00:09
http://thewebfairy.com/video/collec...ry.com/video/collected/Mas...ror_128KBps.wmv]

911 Truth and Lies 4 parts

http://www.illuminaticonspiracy.org...minaticonspiracy.org/files/...ndLiesPart1.wmv
http://www.illuminaticonspiracy.org...minaticonspiracy.org/files/...ndLiesPart2.wmv
http://www.illuminaticonspiracy.org...minaticonspiracy.org/files/...ndLiesPart3.wmv
http://www.illuminaticonspiracy.org...minaticonspiracy.org/files/...ndLiesPart4.wmv

Michael Parenti-Terrorism, Globalism and Conspiracy
http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti1.wmv]http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti1.wmv
http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti2.wmv]http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti2.wmv
http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti3.wmv]http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti3.wmv
http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti4.wmv]http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti4.wmv
http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti5.wmv]http://www.workingtv.com/media5/parenti5.wmv

Illuminazi 9-11
http://www.nwowatcher.com/downloads...//www.nwowatcher.com/downloads/illuminazi.wmv

The Microchip
http://www.nwowatcher.com/downloads...ww.nwowatcher.com/downloads/The Microchip.wmv

Free ebooks

http://www.nwowatcher.com/ebooks/Th...luminati, Templars, Freemasons, etc.).pdf]The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O. (Illuminati, Templars, Freemasons, etc.).pdf
http://www.nwowatcher.com/ebooks/Order Out of Chaos - By Paul Joseph Watson.pdf]Order Out of Chaos - Paul Joseph Watson
http://www.nwowatcher.com/ebooks/Ch...f The New World Order - By Dennis Cuddy.pdf]A Chronological History of the New World Order - Denis Cuddy
http://www.nwowatcher.com/ebooks/co...Order by Milton William Cooper.pdf]Conspiracy ebook - The New World Order - Milton William Cooper
http://www.nwowatcher.com/ebooks/Global Tyranny Step By Step - By William F Jasper.pdf]Global Tyranny Step by Step - By WIlliam F. Jasper


http://www.nwowatcher.com/downloads.html]A **** load more Documentaries and ebooks can be found here

 

[RightinNYC]

i dont see how you guys can turn the death of americans done by our own goverment in to a joke

Ok, this is to all of the people who still believe 9/11 was the work of 19 Arabic Hijackers and an operation entirely masterminded by Osama Bin Laden, mainly because he hates our freedom’s and disagrees with American Liberalism. Despite all of their hard work, the United States Government simply could not see the attack coming.

blah blah blah blah tinfoil hat blah blah omg bush is like hitler blah blah blah NWO blah blah blah george orwell blah

Your cut and paste conspiracy theory is the real joke.

Did you even look at the sources that you posted, or did you just rely on the person you copied and pasted them from.

I truly don't have the time to deal with this inundation of crap, so I'll pick and choose.

The whole "willie brown was warned" thing - bullshit. Look at the article you cited. it says it's a THEORY, not a fact. Brown himself has denied it.

The fact that the cia believed at SOME point that a terrorist group might try to hijack planes does NOT mean they let it happen. At some point, a terrorist group might do a MILLION DIFFERENT THINGS, that doesnt mean we can prevent them all.

instant messages = rumor as well.

why would the terrorists pack bags? Because if you dont pack bags for flights, you become the target of scrutiny.

You say that the fact that we quickly identified possible culprits is evidence it was fake. if they had taken longer, you'd say it was evidence we were too dumb.

if building 7 wasnt hit by an airplane, why would the FEMA or NWO, or whatever group you attribute this to want it destroyed? Wouldn't that raise the same questions you just brought up? Why make the plan more complicated for no reason, or as you said "key bono" from the destruction of #7?

your blather about patriot act II, the prescription drugs, and mandatory psychological testing is complete sh*t without any actual basis, other than your (or rather, the person who actually compiled this) malinformed opinion.

"100s of Al-Queda and Taliban being flown out after 911, Insider trading right before 911,"

Both of these have been disproven.

"This is an information war, against elites with 90% of the wealth trying to control the political and financial systems to control mankind, and doing it for there own selfish desires. And information of this type is so much more powerful than any gun or grenade or tank or anything. Every single word we spew of resistance is a bullet, discharged from a chamber and sent into the heart of the New World Order Demon, and it will take a lot to kill it, but humanity will prevail."

Self congratulatory circle jerk much?

I really don't have anymore time to spent on tripe like this. You can claim that this is because im overwhelmed by the evidence, or whatever you like, but the truth is, I don't have the luxury of living in my parents basement and working at the 7/11 like 95% of these conspiracy theorist douchebags.

 

[biblemark1018]

would you rather hear it from firefighter at 911
how did giuliani know they was going to come down who told him this is a clip of him saying he was told
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/giuliani3_0016.rm
listen to radio report on that day
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/Tower2Pulled.mp3
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/Tower1Pulled.mp3
would you feel better hearing it from fire fighter
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_firefighters.mp3

 

[sebastiansdreams]

The reason the towers became hot and melted was because of the stresses placed on the destroyed portions of the towers by the massive weight of the structure above it.

No, the damage to the stress points was not a reason for the massive heat. That is one of the two proposed factors in the reason the building fell. It certainly does not give reason for why the building would have gotten hot enough to melt through steal support beams after the initial impact. A fire that hot would have continue burning and have multiple implosions (likely caused by various electronic devices such as computers and lights and such) and some massive failure of the sprinkler systems. But all things considered, there is no reason that that fire would get so hot as to burn through steel but the fire in the Pentagon wasn't even hot enough to burn the roof down? The point is that if the fire was so hot in the WTC, the why was it not so hot in the Pentagon as to carry further that it did or do more damage than it did? That is simply inconsistent. As far as the plain hitting the the ground first, if this happened, there oughta be a massive impact tear somewhere in the surrounding area of the Pentagon as well as some debris that is almost unavoidable when something of that build makes a an initial contact like that. This is of course not undeniable evidence supporting conspiracy, but it is enough cause to make us stop and say "huh, wonder why that happened." And that's all I'm doing.

You're right, they can sneak explosives anywhere. The only bit of evidence that is missing is ...

Well the question of course would be who was looking for evidence? Is it not likely that those investigating the site would have been hired employees of the government? Furthermore, I could be wrong, but I don't really think anyone was looking for conspiracy the first little while after the event. I mean it never once occured to me until I started looking at some of these websites in the past couple of weeks (sorry I am at times naive, which is why I always make it a point to examine every angle), so it is arguably possible that anyone suspecting conspiracy might not have anything to look for by the time it hit them. Is that not at very least a possibility? As far as the evidence you're looking for, did you happen to watch any of those quicktime links that were posted at the beginning of this? There were theoretically feasible. The question I guess is this: if no one but these few guys actually suspects cover-up, then no one else but these guys is looking for it, then why should any be found?

How did the Taliban get access to flight training? ...

This point alone is, as you said, no big suprise and nothing to get excited against. But this fact added with all sorts of other points of dropping the ballt that could have been avoided at very least shows that even if no one on the inside was involved, there were some pretty major screw-ups on the part of intellegence for not catching all of this sooner. And of course, this added with all the rest of it does raise the question is our intellegence really this un-intellegent or was there reason to ignore it or even aid it? Again I don't know, but like I said before, I have to look at every angle before I make a conclusion.

How could the President ignore a very real threat? How could Clinton ignore the same threat? It was ignored. That's a fact. Doesn't mean anything. I bet if I'd asked you how important you thought terrorism on Sept 10th, you wouldn't have said it was your top priority.

Call me absolutely nutty, but if intellegence was saying "hey, I think there is a good possibility of an attack tomorrow" I personally would have said "Alright, well lets do something about it," but I wouldn't make a very good president for many reasons, that being one of them. And you're certainly right. That by itself doesn't mean anything other than the possibility of us having a rather unaware president. But again, added with all of the goof ups and the questionable acts and other such theories... it certainly does not support a case against conspiracy.

You may more than I know about the subject. All I know is what I've read from both sides. I do not have ability or access to dig for truth myself, so I have to work out what is handed to me by the press, the government, and people like these people in the video who study the possibility of conspiracy. But am I wrong for looking at other possibilities?

I'm not fed anything.

Well far be it from me to question you if you have spent the last few years personally looking into US intellegence, reviewing the tapes we have of 9/11, revisiting the WTC site and the Pentagon personally looking at the evidence first hand, speaking to anyone and everyone who was at the site, and have personally discussed this with the President among others in Washington. If you've done all that, then I apologize for for accusing you of believing what is handed to you in the form of news. If you have not, you must realize that news is bias because people are bias. Whether they mean to be or not, at times people are blinded by their own bias.

I'm not fed anything. I'm well aware that FDR's state was a secret to most of the country, but that was because of the sad state of the press then. Do you think that could be hidden nowadays? With the millions of bloggers instantly posting anything they see, the rise of partisan news sources, and the spread of the internet, nothing is hidden anymore.

The news has certainly changed. But I don't necessarly think it is any more reliable, simply given from seperate bias as opposed to one. Which may or may not allow you to find the truth in the middle ground. For instance, if one news program said that 4 poeple were killed in an accident, and another says 400, if you use middle ground reasoning that means that only about 200 people were killed. But it could have only been 4. Seperate bias does not always allow for finding truth. And one bias that will always exist in this case is that our reporters are all Americans. They all live under this government, and want to believe that they can trust it. So that in itself is an immediate possible blinding bias. Things are still hidden, we are still lied to, and we are only a little closer to the truth. Do not think that we have yet accomplished a completely honest and perfect device for finding truth.

The whole point of the commission was to dispel the same rumors you're propagating now...

But if indeed the thesis of the Warren Report was to dispel any such rumors, then why would we be led to believe they would find anything different? That is a large problem I have with contemporary science as well. I find that any time you set out to prove something with a thesis already in place, it is very uncommon for you to find something that would disprove your thesis. It is the blinding effect of bias on everyone. If you want something to be true, then normally you some how find a way that supports your theory, whether it be intentional or otherwise.

Weren't you the one just claiming that there was a CIA office in the WTC? If they didn't care about the CIA, why would they care about the Pentagon. Makes no sense. Why crash it into the Pentagon at all? Why not the White House, or the Capital? None of "their people" were in either.

No, it wasn't I who claimed that. But having one office in the building that could have been forewarned, and taking out the entire building that is for all intensive purposes the home of national security seem to be two different things don't you think? And of course the argument is that there was no crash in the Pentagon, but rather that it was a controlled demolition of a wing that was under construction. Perhaps the CIA people in the WTC were forewarned, and they were told not to come to work that day, or at least the ones the government cared to keep around. And again, there is no telling where the last plane was headed. It is entirely possible it WAS destination White House. Who knows?

I tolerate many different viewpoints, but I look at abject stupidity on the same level as racism or anti-semitism. It's what it often leads to, anyways.

So then, to suspend judgement on this is abject stupidity? And furthermore it could lead to something in the same way racism could? Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page here?

No, actually, they seem quite incoherent...

Okay, obviously it is not bibleboy I am referring to. If he alone were the only one putting this together, I would quickly dismiss it. The problem comes in the coherent theories of the men and women who appeared on the quicktime movies that he presented earlier in his argument. They are logical and theoretically sound. And that is where I begin to question the actual events of the attacks. If it were nothing more than rantings, I would not even begin to listen to it. It is well examined and sound arguments that I find to be a problem.

It's not the original posing of the questions that I take issue with...

Look, I just read about this whole theory about a week ago and I've been in the middle of finals and everything. I haven't had time to do the research on this stuff. If these questions have been answered, then I am more than willing to listen and follow the answers whereever they lead. But up until a week ago I didn't even think to ask them. So posing that I am ignoring arguments because I am refusing to listen to answers that I haven't even come to yet is unfair.

 

[biblemark1018]

i say to any one that had idea 911 was not done by the usa goverment to watch this
http://www.question911.com/q22trnrE...oose Change - A Documentary on 911 Part 1.wmv

http://www.question911.com/q22trnrE...oose Change - A Documentary on 911 Part 2.wmv

 

[stsburns]

I guess you believe this too.

To: http://www.debatepolitics.com/member.php?u=46

I guess you believe in the "JFK Conspiracy", "Landing on the Moon Conspiracy", etc.....

I've read everything on the "9-11 Conspiracy", and it is all just ideas and Theories. NOTHING IS PROVEN!

The small plane theory was an insane conspiracy because alot of the plane will melt on impact. You'll find the whole Pentagon conspriracy of a smaller plane crashing into it bogus, because digital film can be modified! You could have painted a Ferrie into the video, and make a website that it crashed into the Pentagon! :comp: :rofl

Do you still believe it now?

 

[RightinNYC]

No, the damage to the stress points was not a reason for the massive heat. That is one of the two proposed factors in the reason the building fell. It certainly does not give reason for why the building would have gotten hot enough to melt through steal support beams after the initial impact. A fire that hot would have continue burning and have multiple implosions (likely caused by various electronic devices such as computers and lights and such) and some massive failure of the sprinkler systems. But all things considered, there is no reason that that fire would get so hot as to burn through steel but the fire in the Pentagon wasn't even hot enough to burn the roof down? The point is that if the fire was so hot in the WTC, the why was it not so hot in the Pentagon as to carry further that it did or do more damage than it did? That is simply inconsistent. As far as the plain hitting the the ground first, if this happened, there oughta be a massive impact tear somewhere in the surrounding area of the Pentagon as well as some debris that is almost unavoidable when something of that build makes a an initial contact like that. This is of course not undeniable evidence supporting conspiracy, but it is enough cause to make us stop and say "huh, wonder why that happened." And that's all I'm doing.

A plane, weighing 875,000 pounds, almost fully loaded with fuel, hitting an incredibly tall, incredibly thin building at 560 miles per hour. That doesnt seem like it would fall to you? At that speed, the front of the plane was most likely completely obliterated into nothingness.Granted, they had predicted before that it wouldn't, but thats purely theoretical engineering. Nothing like this ever happened before, so the fact that something unexpected happened should be a surprise. Sprinklers wouldn't do a thing.

My point about the pentagon is that when the plane hit, it was hitting an area that had 3 or 4 floors of weight on it. In the towers, it was more like 40. And, just so you know, the roof of the pentagon DID burn down and collapse.

Well the question of course would be who was looking for evidence? Is it not likely that those investigating the site would have been hired employees of the government? Furthermore, I could be wrong, but I don't really think anyone was looking for conspiracy the first little while after the event. I mean it never once occured to me until I started looking at some of these websites in the past couple of weeks (sorry I am at times naive, which is why I always make it a point to examine every angle), so it is arguably possible that anyone suspecting conspiracy might not have anything to look for by the time it hit them. Is that not at very least a possibility? As far as the evidence you're looking for, did you happen to watch any of those quicktime links that were posted at the beginning of this? There were theoretically feasible. The question I guess is this: if no one but these few guys actually suspects cover-up, then no one else but these guys is looking for it, then why should any be found?

Do you really think that theres a possibility for the hundreds of investigators in this case to all keep their mouths shut about what they found? You don't think that if someone had realized "Hey....the government killed all these people" that they would tell someone?

Completely inplausable.

This point alone is, as you said, no big suprise and nothing to get excited against. But this fact added with all sorts of other points of dropping the ballt that could have been avoided at very least shows that even if no one on the inside was involved, there were some pretty major screw-ups on the part of intellegence for not catching all of this sooner. And of course, this added with all the rest of it does raise the question is our intellegence really this un-intellegent or was there reason to ignore it or even aid it? Again I don't know, but like I said before, I have to look at every angle before I make a conclusion.

It shows that our nation is a MASSIVE bureaucracy, and nothing more.

Call me absolutely nutty, but if intellegence was saying "hey, I think there is a good possibility of an attack tomorrow" I personally would have said "Alright, well lets do something about it," but I wouldn't make a very good president for many reasons, that being one of them. And you're certainly right. That by itself doesn't mean anything other than the possibility of us having a rather unaware president. But again, added with all of the goof ups and the questionable acts and other such theories... it certainly does not support a case against conspiracy.

You may more than I know about the subject. All I know is what I've read from both sides. I do not have ability or access to dig for truth myself, so I have to work out what is handed to me by the press, the government, and people like these people in the video who study the possibility of conspiracy. But am I wrong for looking at other possibilities?

But they DIDNT say "theres a chance of an attack tomorrow." They said "we have information that at some point there may be an attack." They've been saying the same thing for the past 15 years. There was very little to separate the intelligence on this issue from anything else.

Well far be it from me to question you if you have spent the last few years personally looking into US intellegence, reviewing the tapes we have of 9/11, revisiting the WTC site and the Pentagon personally looking at the evidence first hand, speaking to anyone and everyone who was at the site, and have personally discussed this with the President among others in Washington. If you've done all that, then I apologize for for accusing you of believing what is handed to you in the form of news. If you have not, you must realize that news is bias because people are bias. Whether they mean to be or not, at times people are blinded by their own bias.

You don't have to do any of that to avoid being "fed" news. Getting news from many sources, including some primary, provides enough information to make an educated decision. Certainly more than a flash video on a conspiracy site.

The news has certainly changed. But I don't necessarly think it is any more reliable, simply given from seperate bias as opposed to one. Which may or may not allow you to find the truth in the middle ground. For instance, if one news program said that 4 poeple were killed in an accident, and another says 400, if you use middle ground reasoning that means that only about 200 people were killed. But it could have only been 4. Seperate bias does not always allow for finding truth. And one bias that will always exist in this case is that our reporters are all Americans. They all live under this government, and want to believe that they can trust it. So that in itself is an immediate possible blinding bias. Things are still hidden, we are still lied to, and we are only a little closer to the truth. Do not think that we have yet accomplished a completely honest and perfect device for finding truth.

That's a situation in which facts are created. That doesn't (really) happen in our society, not if you know where to look. That's the reason why I don't just read American news.

But if indeed the thesis of the Warren Report was to dispel any such rumors, then why would we be led to believe they would find anything different? That is a large problem I have with contemporary science as well. I find that any time you set out to prove something with a thesis already in place, it is very uncommon for you to find something that would disprove your thesis. It is the blinding effect of bias on everyone. If you want something to be true, then normally you some how find a way that supports your theory, whether it be intentional or otherwise.

You misunderstood what I said. That wasn't the point of the commission, the point was simply to find out what happened. What they concluded is enough to dispel all the rumors.

So then, to suspend judgement on this is abject stupidity? And furthermore it could lead to something in the same way racism could? Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page here?

Exactly. The people who believe **** like this are the same ones who talk about the "Jew World Empire" etc. Almost all of these conspiracy theorists have some sort of anti-semitic undertones. And, stupid people are more likely to be racist.

Look, I just read about this whole theory about a week ago and I've been in the middle of finals and everything. I haven't had time to do the research on this stuff. If these questions have been answered, then I am more than willing to listen and follow the answers whereever they lead. But up until a week ago I didn't even think to ask them. So posing that I am ignoring arguments because I am refusing to listen to answers that I haven't even come to yet is unfair.

I hear you about the finals. Just finished everything up here today.

 

[biblemark1018]

guys here is a must see
http://www.question911.com/q22trnrE...oose Change - A Documentary on 911 Part 1.wmv

http://www.question911.com/q22trnrE...oose Change - A Documentary on 911 Part 2.wmv

 

[Arch Enemy]

nice videos.

The building in Caracus Venezuela was totally true. It burnt for a really long time and if you drive by the building, you can see that the top floors are burnt to a crisp. But that is totally different than anything mashing into it.. Those videos are pretty convincing, especially the Osama Bin Laden thing, I hope we find Osama Bin Laden to be innocent of these crimes.

 

[RightinNYC]

I hope we find Osama Bin Laden to be innocent of these crimes.

Erm....why?