9 potential mass shootings stopped by armed citizens...

[Lutherf]

This has been covered.

Mass shootings, concealed carry: 9 things wrong with BuzzFeed

You may now commence whining about how unfair liberal anti-gun people are. We will be shielding our eyes out of collective shame for you.

With all due respect to the author of that article and the rest of the folks who have been spewing similar garbage for years.....If you want to have a rational discussion about guns you have to be rational to begin with.

1. While not every person with a CCW has police or military experience a whole lot of them do. You all seem to have no problem with cops or GI's having firearms because "they're trained" but for some reason or other you seem to completely avoid the idea that some folks who were military or law enforcement got out of that business and went on to something else. Many of us in that situation have kept up on our skills and a few have probably INCREASED their skills.

2. Just because someone is active military, active LE or prior service doesn't mean that they have extensive firearms training and the vast majority who do have decent training have not had actual combat experience. In short, in a shooting situation these folks are going to act on training rather than actual experience.

3. Most street cops don't get much tactical training. They are taught basic defensive movements and "officer safety" but only the tactical teams tend to get any offensive training. That's why you see issues like NYPD sending bullets into bystanders.

4. When you have an active shooter situation your primary objective needs to be to stop the shooting. Return fire is an excellent way to do that because it forces the shooter to stop his offensive actions and take defensive ones. As a minimum your chances of getting the shooter to lay off of defenseless targets improve greatly once he's focused on a target capable of defense. Anybody who can get a round off would be capable of that much.

5. If nobody but the shooter has a firearm then your options for stopping him are pretty damned limited. On occasion the shooter can be reasoned with but it's not something one should rely on.

 

[Goshin]

So, I can appreciate someone having the ability to stop something like this from happening. I wonder though how many deaths from a firearm never would have happened if there were more strict gun control laws. I am torn on this issue but thought this was interesting.

Countries With High Gun Ownership Have More Firearms Deaths : Shots - Health News : NPR

Actually that isn't true. Private gun ownership rates and murder rates are not connected, as I've demonstrated with sourced facts before.

I will list the top nations in order of rates of intentional homicide, also showing their rates of private gun ownership, then show the USA by contrast.

Name.... homicide rate per 100,000.... gun ownership rate per 100.

Honduras... 91.6... 6.2
El Salvador... 69.2 ... 5.8
Cote d'Ivoire... 56.9 ... not listed
Jamaica... 52.2 ... 8.1
Venezuela ... 45.1 ... 10.7
Belize ... 41.1 ... 10
Virgin Islands ... 39.2 ... not listed
Guatemala ... 38.5 ... 13.1
skipping down a bit...
Columbia ... 33.4 ... 5.9
South Africa... 31.8 ... 12.7
skipping down some more...
Greenland ... 19.2 ... not listed
Russia ... 10.2 ... 8.9
skipping down some more...
Ukraine.... 5.2 ... 6.6
Cuba... 5.0 ... 4.8

And finally, well over halfway down the list...

USA... 4.2 ... 88.8


Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As it turns out, the United States does not have that high of a homicide rate compared to most other countries, and given the amount of privately owned arms we are FAR more peaceable than most on a per-gun-owned basis.

OBVIOUSLY, gun ownership is NOT directly linked to murder rates.

 

[BretJ]

So, I can appreciate someone having the ability to stop something like this from happening. I wonder though how many deaths from a firearm never would have happened if there were more strict gun control laws. I am torn on this issue but thought this was interesting.

Countries With High Gun Ownership Have More Firearms Deaths : Shots - Health News : NPR

Not many really. Perhaps a small fraction. The majority of gun deaths are suicide and it could be argued that had they not had access, they may have been unsuccessful with other methods and turned themselves around. However, the vast majority of firearms murders are thug on thug killings which occur in a very small number of dense urban areas (Chicago, New York, Detroit, Atlanta etc...) and more restrictions on legal gun owners would have little if no effect.

 

[Threegoofs]

With all due respect to the author of that article and the rest of the folks who have been spewing similar garbage for years.....If you want to have a rational discussion about guns you have to be rational to begin with.

1. While not every person with a CCW has police or military experience a whole lot of them do. You all seem to have no problem with cops or GI's having firearms because "they're trained" but for some reason or other you seem to completely avoid the idea that some folks who were military or law enforcement got out of that business and went on to something else. Many of us in that situation have kept up on our skills and a few have probably INCREASED their skills.

2. Just because someone is active military, active LE or prior service doesn't mean that they have extensive firearms training and the vast majority who do have decent training have not had actual combat experience. In short, in a shooting situation these folks are going to act on training rather than actual experience.

3. Most street cops don't get much tactical training. They are taught basic defensive movements and "officer safety" but only the tactical teams tend to get any offensive training. That's why you see issues like NYPD sending bullets into bystanders.

4. When you have an active shooter situation your primary objective needs to be to stop the shooting. Return fire is an excellent way to do that because it forces the shooter to stop his offensive actions and take defensive ones. As a minimum your chances of getting the shooter to lay off of defenseless targets improve greatly once he's focused on a target capable of defense. Anybody who can get a round off would be capable of that much.

5. If nobody but the shooter has a firearm then your options for stopping him are pretty damned limited. On occasion the shooter can be reasoned with but it's not something one should rely on.

I have no doubt that many people with CCW are well trained. But I also have no doubt that many are not. CCW in Illinois requires sixteen (16!) hours of training. Thats less time than most people have spent doing algebra, and I wouldnt trust a random person to do a quadratic equation in a split second with lives hanging in the balance. Thats less time than a cashier at McDonalds spends training. Thats probably why the instructions from the government on this situation when you are a CCW holder is to HIDE and attack the gunman only in the last, worst case, scenario.

Homeland Security has advice for confronting mass murders: scissors | New York Post

I actually have no problem with really well trained CCW people carrying. Its probably a good thing. But I think a whole lot of CCW people probably arent too well trained, and probably not excessively responsible. And being next to those people is more worrisome to me than the small chance of being in a situation with an active shooter.

 

[opendebate]

Actually that isn't true. Private gun ownership rates and murder rates are not connected, as I've demonstrated with sourced facts before.

This is a recent study done by an objective party. Did you look at it?

 

[LaMidRighter]

So, I can appreciate someone having the ability to stop something like this from happening. I wonder though how many deaths from a firearm never would have happened if there were more strict gun control laws. I am torn on this issue but thought this was interesting.

Countries With High Gun Ownership Have More Firearms Deaths : Shots - Health News : NPR

If you trace back most shootings, they tend to be gang related, and many of those had "filed" guns. A filed gun is a felony, it is illegal to tamper with the serial number on a firearm but this is done so for one of two reasons, they either don't want a firearm retrieved to be traced back to them along the evidence chain or they stole it and would rather get popped for the other charges than having the stolen firearm identified. Either way, most of the shooters already are prohibited from owning a weapon in the first place due to extensive rap sheets.

 

[Goshin]

This is a recent study done by an objective party. Did you look at it?

1. Objectivity is a myth.

2. I've done my own study on the subject. I find no correlation. Did you read mine?

 

[LaMidRighter]

This is a recent study done by an objective party. Did you look at it?

It's actually not true though is the main problem. Most of the high firearm death countries have some major social upheaval, if you actually take out gang violence the U.S. is ahead of most gun control countries. We have a major gang problem in the states, but these are people who will kill each other with anything they can get their hands on.

 

[BretJ]

I actually have no problem with really well trained CCW people carrying. Its probably a good thing. But I think a whole lot of CCW people probably arent too well trained, and probably not excessively responsible. And being next to those people is more worrisome to me than the small chance of being in a situation with an active shooter.

Yet the untrained CCW people have shot fewer bystanders than police officers. Training does not necessarily equate to proficiency.
Why would someone with a CCW being next to you be worrisome? You are probably next to CCW holders (trained or not) more often than you are next to police officers and do not even realize it.

 

[Threegoofs]

Yet the untrained CCW people have shot fewer bystanders than police officers. Training does not necessarily equate to proficiency.
Why would someone with a CCW being next to you be worrisome? You are probably next to CCW holders (trained or not) more often than you are next to police officers and do not even realize it.

Not in Illinois.

So your argument then, is no matter how much training, you might not be proficient?

 

[head of joaquin]

Spare me the negative BS.

Any number greater than zero stopped is a good number.

How many lives have you saved lately?

More than the NRA, whose policies arm psychopaths and allow them to slaughter people.

To pretend it's a triumph that gun psychopaths armed by stupid gun policies are sometimes stopped by people armed by the same stupid policies shows how irrational the boomsticklover crowd is.

 

[Fletch]

More than the NRA, whose policies arm psychopaths and allow them to slaughter people.

To pretend it's a triumph that gun psychopaths armed by stupid gun policies are sometimes stopped by people armed by the same stupid policies shows how irrational the boomsticklover crowd is.

Which policies are those? Specifically.

 

[Goshin]

More than the NRA, whose policies arm psychopaths and allow them to slaughter people.

To pretend it's a triumph that gun psychopaths armed by stupid gun policies are sometimes stopped by people armed by the same stupid policies shows how irrational the boomsticklover crowd is.

to pretend the NRA armed them is beyond ignorant.

 

[BretJ]

Not in Illinois.

So your argument then, is no matter how much training, you might not be proficient?

First you have to define proficiency. Then you have to determine under what conditions. But yes, that is pretty accurate.

 

[roughdraft274]

Well there it is.....


9 Potential Mass Shootings That Were Stopped By Someone With A Personally-Owned Firearm |






Yes there were casualties... but the point is it could have been far worse in many cases without an armed citizen who stopped the perp before he could complete his plan.

Can you explain to me how back ground checks would have stopped these people from preventing these "potential" mass shootings?

 

[Goshin]

Can you explain to me how back ground checks would have stopped these people from preventing these "potential" mass shootings?

Didn't say it would.

We have background checks already on most sales. Some of the perps passed background checks. Others stole weapons from lawful owners. Others got weapons illegally.

The point is any restriction on an enumerated right should have proveable positive results, and I haven't seen any recently proposed laws that would.

 

[Threegoofs]

First you have to define proficiency. Then you have to determine under what conditions. But yes, that is pretty accurate.

Makes me feel real good about CCW. In other words, you can't train just any idiot who applies...so Shaky Susie from Streator and Rambo Ronnie from are going to be CCW next to me on the El, flipping out the first time a homeless guy asks them for change.

 

[BretJ]

Makes me feel real good about CCW. In other words, you can't train just any idiot who applies...so Shaky Susie from Streator and Rambo Ronnie from are going to be CCW next to me on the El, flipping out the first time a homeless guy asks them for change.

Same thing applies to Officer Fife and Detective Callahan. Have you seen any issues as you have described in states that have allowed CCW now for many years?
I have heard many times from anti gun rights advocates that "Blood will run in the streets" or it will be "Like the wild west" if we allow CCW...yet when all is said and done, those advocates are shown to be irrational and their fears unwarranted when confronted with reality.

 

[TurtleDude]

Same thing applies to Officer Fife and Detective Callahan. Have you seen any issues as you have described in states that have allowed CCW now for many years?
I have heard many times from anti gun rights advocates that "Blood will run in the streets" or it will be "Like the wild west" if we allow CCW...yet when all is said and done, those advocates are shown to be irrational and their fears unwarranted when confronted with reality.

I try to train as many people possible to become CCW holders if only for the reason to cause the fearful to have even more laundry bills.

 

[Threegoofs]

I try to train as many people possible to become CCW holders if only for the reason to cause the fearful to have even more laundry bills.

The fearful, ironically, are the ones who feel they need to carry a gun around with them.

 

[TurtleDude]

The fearful, ironically, are the ones who feel they need to carry a gun around with them.

you wouldn't know would you? you are terrified that honest people are armed.

I would remind you of something from the Bible of the late great colonel Jeff Cooper

And Yeah though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I shall fear no evil because I am the best armed MF in the damn valley.

 

[Harshaw]

you wouldn't know would you? you are terrified that honest people are armed.

I would remind you of something from the Bible of the late great colonel Jeff Cooper

And Yeah though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I shall fear no evil because I am the best armed MF in the damn valley.

If I had to guess, I'd say "peace through strength" is not a concept threegoofs groks.

 

[TurtleDude]

If I had to guess, I'd say "peace through strength" is not a concept threegoofs groks.

many gun haters try to banish a guns since they see guns as serving as totems of their own fear of not accepting personal self defense as an individual manly duty

 

[BretJ]

The fearful, ironically, are the ones who feel they need to carry a gun around with them.

So your fear that a CCW holder may possibly cause you harm is more justifiable than my supposed fear of a criminal. Hmmmm.....strange priorities. Can you explain why or show me examples of why you would feel that way or is it "just because"? For what it's worth, I carry a firearm for the same reasons I have a trauma kit and fire extinguishers. I understand the limitations of law enforcement and emergency services. I also understand that I am the first responder when i am with my family. Don't confuse my taking my responsibilities as a father and husband seriously as fear.

 

[Capster78]

After reading several school articles, I'm convinced the admins are trying to choose wisely.
Choose teachers/etc. who already have CC and are willing to go to extra training.
Their stipend is enough to cover a few barbeques.

If we have to start arming teachers in ordewr to protect our kids while at school, then we have a very disturbing problem on our hands. It just seems a bit odd that no one is willing to even take a look at guns being at least a great contributor to this problem if this is our solution. Personally, I think if things have gotten this bad, why would you even want to live in this country anymore.