$635 billion ??!!

[JoeTheEconomist]

My income doesn't depend on making attention getting claims based on an absence of information so I'm not going to go to the trouble of writing an article about. However, I have posted several explanations for why his calculation is inaccurate (ie the figures he uses may include a variety of expenses that are not directly related to the development of the web software) and for why the development of the website may not be as simple a task as some have described it be (ie. there may be a need to access databases that do not support such access, numerous databases in various formats, etc)

The last thing anyone in the media wants to do is draw attention associated to criticizing the ACA. Most of the criticism in the press has been limited to stuff that is pretty loony... Death panels and the end of capitalism. The media has a liberal bias and will do anything to crush people who cross liberal icons. David Brock wrote "The Real Anita Hill" and had his name legally changed to "The discredited" David Brock. If you read the book before you read the review which 'discredited' him, you would wonder whether it was the same book. Whether you thought the book was right or not, the material which discredited him was pretty minor stuff.

 

[Dickieboy]

Re: The Govt Paid What For The ACA Website..... You are #$#$) Kidding Me.

Though not for two decades, that is true. It only takes a few lines of code to query a SQL database

However, it's only true if the database you're trying to access has an interface

Otherwise, you have to create an interface, or buy one if one is available.

And since we're talking about 36 states, where each states database might be different, it means the programmer has to understand the structure of 36 different databases before he can write the queries.

I understand most of this is supposition and true the challenge was daunting but damn, they had 3 years and an almost unlimited pool of 'resources'...I mean it is the Federal Government. For many in the Administration to come out weeks before and proclaim 'exchanges will be open' or 'it's ready' only to be met with the failure it has sure seems irresponsible to say the least.

 

[thinkforyoursel]

Re: The Govt Paid What For The ACA Website..... You are #$#$) Kidding Me.

Remember when dems tried to keep corporate cash out of politics? This is the end results!

Of-course I find it damming that the WH ...with many skilled unemployed Americans had to find foreigners to build this system. But can we find ..one ...or two ...or 100 such examples among republicans ....you betcha!

And why the country is eroding is because .....when it's ..."your guy"...shafting the American people ...it's OK.

So in the end ..republicans more than anybody ..begged for this system ...and they did that when they opened the flood gates for corporate dollars and elections. This is the end results! With the ..$Billions from this deal ...this Canadian firm will fund democrats ....AND REPUBLICANS ....so they can get more of this bounty!

Remember Romney's very words...."CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE MY FRIEND".

 

[sangha]

The last thing anyone in the media wants to do is draw attention associated to criticizing the ACA. Most of the criticism in the press has been limited to stuff that is pretty loony... Death panels and the end of capitalism. The media has a liberal bias and will do anything to crush people who cross liberal icons. David Brock wrote "The Real Anita Hill" and had his name legally changed to "The discredited" David Brock. If you read the book before you read the review which 'discredited' him, you would wonder whether it was the same book. Whether you thought the book was right or not, the material which discredited him was pretty minor stuff.

IMO, the reason why the press has focused on "loony" criticisms of ACA is that is what the republicans have offered in the way of criticism. If, instead of wailing about death panels and $600 Billion websites, they had focused on issues like the rationality of an employment-based model of coverage, the media would have responded in kind.

 

[sangha]

Re: The Govt Paid What For The ACA Website..... You are #$#$) Kidding Me.

I understand most of this is supposition and true the challenge was daunting but damn, they had 3 years and an almost unlimited pool of 'resources'...I mean it is the Federal Government. For many in the Administration to come out weeks before and proclaim 'exchanges will be open' or 'it's ready' only to be met with the failure it has sure seems irresponsible to say the least.

Well, I'm not going to come out and claim it's been a roaring success. I'm just trying to see if the criticisms could be little more rational and realistic than "OMG! $600Billion to build a system so simple my grandkid could have programmed it in my basement!"

 

[Moot]

Re: The Govt Paid What For The ACA Website..... You are #$#$) Kidding Me.

Remember when dems tried to keep corporate cash out of politics? This is the end results!

Of-course I find it damming that the WH ...with many skilled unemployed Americans had to find foreigners to build this system. But can we find ..one ...or two ...or 100 such examples among republicans ....you betcha!

And why the country is eroding is because .....when it's ..."your guy"...shafting the American people ...it's OK.

So in the end ..republicans more than anybody ..begged for this system ...and they did that when they opened the flood gates for corporate dollars and elections. This is the end results! With the ..$Billions from this deal ...this Canadian firm will fund democrats ....AND REPUBLICANS ....so they can get more of this bounty!

America is lagging behind in computer science and has to hire foreigners to fill the void....and too....most tech and computer science companies in the US are owned by foreigners.....




"....Why does this matter? Because if American students have a negative impression – or no impression at all – of science and engineering, then they’re hardly likely to choose them as professions. Already, 70% of engineers with PhD’s who graduate from U.S. universities are foreign-born. Increasingly, these talented individuals are not staying in the U.S – instead, they’re returning home, where they find greater opportunities.

Part of the problem is the lack of priority U.S. parents place on core education. But there are also problems inherent in our public education system. We simply don’t have enough qualified math and science teachers. Many of those teaching math and science have never taken a university-level course in those subjects....."Danger: America Is Losing Its Edge In Innovation - Forbes

 

[Fenton]

Remember when dems tried to keep
corporate cash out of politics? This is the end results!

Of-course I find it damming that the WH ...with many skilled unemployed Americans had to find foreigners to build this system. But can we find ..one ...or two ...or 100 such examples among republicans ....you betcha!

And why the country is eroding is because .....when it's ..."your guy"...shafting the American people ...it's OK.

So in the end ..republicans more than anybody ..begged for this system ...and they did that when they opened the flood gates for corporate dollars and elections. This is the end results! With the ..$Billions from this deal ...this Canadian firm will fund democrats ....AND REPUBLICANS ....so they can get more of this bounty!

Remember Romney's very words...."CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE MY FRIEND".

LOL !!!!

Post of the ear right here. Someone actually tired ( unsuccessfully ) to blame this abomination on the Republicans.

It took quite a bit of twisted rationalization and a bit of just full blown garden rat crazy partisanship but there you go.

The failure that is the ACA's roll out is anybodies but the Democrats fault and more specifically its the Republicans fault because of " something something Corporate, Romney , something, something, Right wingers , evil rich people, George Bush, Halliburton".

I went ahead and condensed his post down into something that made a bit more sense

 

[thinkforyoursel]

To be honest ...I wish the republicans hammer the WH on the "glitch" in this system primarily because I cannot for the life of me understand why we could not use Americans to build this system. I have always acknowledge that America is losing grounds educationally ....but if we cannot build a software system internally for the nation to use .....the problem is much worse than I thought.

So for the WH to tie their fortunes to some ...CANADIAN..company ....and now in the soup because of these glitches ....I really hope they get hammered for it!!

And seriously....$635B ...for what??? How did yahoo....my-space...face-book get started ...did Zuckeerberg first plunk down $600B?? The idiots got taken to the cleaners ...both on this bloated price tag ...and the idea that we can't find Americans to build this site!!

The sad part is ...partisanship won't truly address this outsourcing practice because you can bet the right have this same practice and at times even worse.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

IMO, the reason why the press has focused on "loony" criticisms of ACA is that is what the republicans have offered in the way of criticism. If, instead of wailing about death panels and $600 Billion websites, they had focused on issues like the rationality of an employment-based model of coverage, the media would have responded in kind.

The irony of your comment is that the GOP has focused on the issue of the a rationality of employement based coverage for decades. Mitt Romney veto'd the employer mandate in Romneycare because employer provided insurance introduces cost imbalances to the healthcare equation. The piece I wrote earlier provided links to Milton Friedman's article on the individual mandate. I think that it draws the most attention because it provides an easy strawman.

 

[sangha]

The irony of your comment is that the GOP has focused on the issue of the a rationality of employement based coverage for decades. Mitt Romney veto'd the employer mandate in Romneycare because employer provided insurance introduces cost imbalances to the healthcare equation. The piece I wrote earlier provided links to Milton Friedman's article on the individual mandate. I think that it draws the most attention because it provides an easy strawman.

There is no irony in my post

The fact is that the GOP did not speak a word about doing away with an employment based model coverage during the 2012 campaign.

There was some talk about death panels though.

 

[thinkforyoursel]

There is no irony in my post

The fact is that the GOP did not speak a word about doing away with an employment based model coverage during the 2012 campaign.

There was some talk about death panels though.

The GOP mistake ...as always ....was they put forward no viable alternative. They doubled-down on the talking point that the system then ...was the best in the world.
In other words their argument was that the current system was OK. Many liberals are not thrilled with the ACA ....but the dam system was messed up.

I don't like the ACA because the insurance companies are still there raping the consumer .....but when the liberals have an uncompromising ...irrational ...opposition ....this is what you get!!
The GOP have no plans for anything.....all they do is dream up ways to spew hate at non-white groups .....but they have no plans.

Making the KOCH BROTHERS richer ....is not a plan for the country!!

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

To be honest ...I wish the republicans hammer the WH on the "glitch" in this system primarily because I cannot for the life of me understand why we could not use Americans to build this system. I have always acknowledge that America is losing grounds educationally ....but if we cannot build a software system internally for the nation to use .....the problem is much worse than I thought.

So for the WH to tie their fortunes to some ...CANADIAN..company ....and now in the soup because of these glitches ....I really hope they get hammered for it!!

And seriously....$635B ...for what??? How did yahoo....my-space...face-book get started ...did Zuckeerberg first plunk down $600B?? The idiots got taken to the cleaners ...both on this bloated price tag ...and the idea that we can't find Americans to build this site!!

The sad part is ...partisanship won't truly address this outsourcing practice because you can bet the right have this same practice and at times even worse.

First, the problems with the website go far beyond 'glitches'. The problem at the core is a management issue. They failed to test the system. They failed to staff the site. Here is an article that I wrote on the subject, and it references the Digital Trends article on which the estimate of 634 million was based. The idea that we could spend 634 million on a website is insane.

Wait

Second, the company is a Canadian company, but the contract is with a US subsidiary.

 

[sangha]

First, the problems with the website go far beyond 'glitches'. The problem at the core is a management issue. They failed to test the system. They failed to staff the site. Here is an article that I wrote on the subject, and it references the Digital Trends article on which the estimate of 634 million was based. The idea that we could spend 634 million on a website is insane.

Wait

Second, the company is a Canadian company, but the contract is with a US subsidiary.

The underlying article says that the website cost less than $100milllion

the bulk of which ($88 million) went to CGI Federal, the company awarded a $93.7 million contract to build Healthcare.gov and other technology portions of the FFEs.

Read more: Obamacare's broken website cost more than LinkedIn, Spotify combined | Digital Trends
Follow us: @digitaltrends on Twitter | digitaltrendsftw on Facebook

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

The GOP mistake ...as always ....was they put forward no viable alternative. They doubled-down on the talking point that the system then ...was the best in the world.
In other words their argument was that the current system was OK. Many liberals are not thrilled with the ACA ....but the dam system was messed up.

I don't like the ACA because the insurance companies are still there raping the consumer .....but when the liberals have an uncompromising ...irrational ...opposition ....this is what you get!!
The GOP have no plans for anything.....all they do is dream up ways to spew hate at non-white groups .....but they have no plans.

Making the KOCH BROTHERS richer ....is not a plan for the country!!

When you say viable alternative suggests that you think that the ACA will work. The arguement is that the current system is better than the mess that the ACA will create. The problem with the ACA is that most of the criticism has been limited to non-sense like death panels. The system has a number of unknowns. Here is an article on 4 things that the ACA can't promise. Until you have some answers, you have no way to suggest that the ACA is better than the current system.

Facts on Obamacare Prove POTUS Will Break These 4 Promises - PolicyMic

The GOP isn't making the Koch brothers rich. The Koch brothers are making the Koch brothers rich.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

The underlying article says that the website cost less than $100milllion

Why are you misleading the people here? You are looking at the cost of a specific contractor when you know that isn't the full cost of the project. If you think that the man is wrong. Write the article. Your statement is like saying that the cost of the house is really the price of the contractor who put in the foundation.

 

[sangha]

Why are you misleading the people here? You are looking at the cost of a specific contractor when you know that isn't the full cost of the project. If you think that the man is wrong. Write the article. Your statement is like saying that the cost of the house is really the price of the contractor who put in the foundation.

It is the cost of a specific contractor to build the website and other technology portions of the FFEs.

$100 million, not $634 million. Your statement is like saying that the cost of the house is really the cost of the house plus the cost of building the road that runs past the house plus the cost of the electrical grid that the house is hooked up to.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

The underlying article says that the website cost less than $100milllion

Interesting that you didn't pull out the entire quote : "and you’re left with roughly $363 million spent on technology-related costs to the healthcare exchanges – the bulk of which ($88 million) went to CGI Federal, the company awarded a $93.7 million contract to build Healthcare.gov and other technology portions of the FFEs."

Why is it that you use a partial sentence....

 

[Rokkitsci]

I am not justifying anything. I am only pointing out reality and some perspective. 650 million for such a vast website and infrastructure is hardly a lot of money considering it theoretically has to handle 315 million people overnight. You simply dont understand how it is to roll out such sites or technology in general... there will ALWAYS be plenty of problems even for the "best".. look at Apple and iOS 7.

Wasting 40k on a toilet seat, or millions on a bridge to no where.. that is waste.

Do you have a reference for that 40K toilet seat?

I remember a lot of urban legends about $400 hammers and $600 toilet seats from a couple decades ago. Are these what you are referencing? or is there a later scandal that is afoot?

The original 'outrages' were just made up hoaxes that the media slipped into the 'mainstream' news cycle to discredit Reagan.

But I'd like to see the latest version of the hoax if one exists.

OH - and 600 million bucks for an abject failure is a lot of money down the drain. It may not be all the fault of the contractors - it is most probably the fault of inconsistent, non-existent, or contradictory specifications from the government. After all, nobody knew 'what was in it' until the law was passed, so it is not surprising that nobody knew what it was supposed to do until after they built it.

 

[Rokkitsci]

Re: Canadians got the Contract ?

...............
As to the missing millions... considering the transparency of our government, we will, no doubt about it, learn its whereabouts within the next few day.. er millenia.

Thom Paine

I am willing to be that a lot of that money went to some ACORN spinoff of the OFA organization that analyzes the demograpics of ACA applicants for their 'get out the vote' efforts.

 

[PeteEU]

Do you have a reference for that 40K toilet seat?

Not the point. US military hardware has always been insanely expensive relative to counterparts around the world and there has been very little transparency or accountability on the subject.

The point is, the military industrial complex charges insane mark ups because they know that they are the only ones who will get the contracts.. look at the air refuelling contract that first went to an American European company but ultimately congress went in.. not once, but twice to give it to Boeing, the more expensive bid.

 

[Thom Paine]

Re: Canadians got the Contract ?

I am willing to be that a lot of that money went to some ACORN spinoff of the OFA organization that analyzes the demograpics of ACA applicants for their 'get out the vote' efforts.

Yeah,.... I haven't experienced a transparent administration as opaque as this one since the days of Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon.... We may not get a good clue let alone facts about those expenditures. Funny and sad at the same time.

Have a good day, Rokkitsci

Thom Paine

 

[sangha]

Interesting that you didn't pull out the entire quote : "and you’re left with roughly $363 million spent on technology-related costs to the healthcare exchanges – the bulk of which ($88 million) went to CGI Federal, the company awarded a $93.7 million contract to build Healthcare.gov and other technology portions of the FFEs."

Why is it that you use a partial sentence....

Because the part I quoted says it all.

You quote the part about how they spent more money on other things in order to misrepresent that money as a cost of building the web site.

 

[Rokkitsci]

Not the point. US military hardware has always been insanely expensive relative to counterparts around the world and there has been very little transparency or accountability on the subject.

The point is, the military industrial complex charges insane mark ups because they know that they are the only ones who will get the contracts.. look at the air refuelling contract that first went to an American European company but ultimately congress went in.. not once, but twice to give it to Boeing, the more expensive bid.

No - the point is that you tossed out a number in error by a factor of 70 - (or I could express it as 7000% to make it sound worse)

Would you be as sanguine about a conservative tossing out a number relating to fraud in the welfare system that was inflated by a factor of 70?? I think you would challenge that as an example of 'extremism.'

Now, nobody is going to say there is no wasteful spending in military contracts - but I would submit they are no more egregious than any federal contracts - say for solar panels, or ethanol, or any other pet projects of the 'stimulus' package. In fact I would put up Boeing integrity against any Solyndra-type company funded by the stimulus package. I would suggest that Boeing is a shining example of fiscal responsibility compared to those obvious rip-off corporations.

Now - if you have some real examples of military waste, please provide them. Your "military hardware has always been insanely expensive" is an unsupported assertion that has no merit in fact.

If you think that military contracts are not competitive then you have obviously never worked in that arena. Military hardware seems extraordinarily expensive because the specifications it has to meet are beyond your comprehension. If military hardware doesn't work in its designed application, there is no help desk to call, no service representative to make it right - people die.

So if you want to carp about something real, I'd be glad to hear the details. Otherwise, repeating these often debunked urban legends that seem to populate most liberal thought processes is just hot air.

 

[thinkforyoursel]

Again...if I said to somebody ...I want a secure website Americans can use to sign up for a service ....how much?

And that person said ....$635B ....I would have to find something to hold onto ....to support myself while laughing!

The only reason why this costs $635B ...is because it's the Federal Government!!

Not Obama ....not Bush ....but every dam congress member we have had for the last 50 years who systematically waste money on the cronies who feed their campaign coffers!!

 

[Fisher]

Again...if I said to somebody ...I want a secure website Americans can use to sign up for a service ....how much?

And that person said ....$635B ....I would have to find something to hold onto ....to support myself while laughing!

The only reason why this costs $635B ...is because it's the Federal Government!!

Not Obama ....not Bush ....but every dam congress member we have had for the last 50 years who systematically waste money on the cronies who feed their campaign coffers!!

It is millions, not billions. Facebook paid a billion for instagram. Believe it or not, companies like to be paid licensing fees for their intellectual property. There were a bunch of last minute changes piled onto the development team, multiple contractors were involved in its development, and they are using dated software that has to be patched together. This is not the first government website failure. I read that even the NSA surveillance center has tons of problems, some of which melted down equipment.